Thread: Orthodox Council Down the Pan? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by LawyerWannabe (# 14186) on :
 
Well, we are meant to be having a jolly get together on the 17th June to 26th June but the Ecumenical Patriarch has been getting plenty of cancelled RSVPs (so far Bulgaria, Antioch, Georgia and Serbia are staying away).

The Russians are having an emergency synod today to decide what they want to do.

At the rate this is going, it might just end up being a Greek get-together.

Father Andrew of OrthodoxEngland continues to imagine that the US government and the Freemasons are controlling the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Personally, I was always a bit hesitant about this entire undertaking and I think more time was needed to clarify and improve the documents. I certainly don't like the voting mechanism they chose (one vote per Church and unanimity required) and would have preferred one vote per bishop but ah well...
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Maybe this link will help Shipmates?
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
I do think that a bit of a shame. The agenda had been watered down as it was, to stay off anything too controversial (ie anything Moscow wouldn't like). Frankly the behaviour of some orthodox hierarchs is less than edifying. In a sense, I have no dog in this fight and it is none of my business. But I think it is important for wider Christianity that Orthodoxy gets its act together and shows it can engage with the world as it is.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've been hearing various perspectives on this from my Orthodox contacts, most of whom would favour postponement rather than cancellation.

What beats me is why those who've objected have left it so late - it's an obvious ploy to scupper things and queer Patriarch Bartholomew's pitch -particularly when plans for this Council have been in the offing for 50 years.

The Antiochians seem to have some sympathy with the Ecumenical Patriarch but want some resolution to a jurisdictional issue between Antioch and Jerusalem in Qatar.

They also seem concerned about the Ecumenical Patriarch's evident ecumenical leanings but less so, perhaps than some of the other jurisdictions who've pulled out.

I suspect, though, that things aren't neatly divided on jurisdictional lines.

There does seem to be something of a Slavs versus everyone else element in there to some extent - but I wouldn't want to overstate that.

I've heard that Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has been saying for some time that the Council has been over-hyped and is no big deal.

Whatever the case, it's certainly messy and unedifying.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The 500 pound gorilla in the room, as far as the OCA is concerned, is the jurisdictional clusterfuck that is North America. And the EP certainly isn't going to cede any jurisdiction and lose its biggest cash cow, and the MP isn't going to back down because that would be to admit the EP can tell it what it can and cannot do, thus undermining its autocephaly. Who will untangle this gordian knot? Nobody because it's off the table.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Jurisdiction. That seems to be a biggy with some Othodox.

Not so physical in this instance but no less in tractable.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
I wonder if the Great & Holy Council, if it actually happens, will end in fisticuffs too?

It really is a bit of a disgrace.

Jurisdiction seems to be the big issue everywhere. The Patriarchate of Antioch recently erected an Archdiocese in the United Kingdom. I wish them all well, of course, but by what reasoning does the Patriarch of Antioch claim any jurisdiction over the British Isles?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The Antiochians have had a Deanery here for some time now and have always been pressing for their own Bishop, rather than relying on the nearest Antiochian Orthodox Bishop in France.

It's a mystery to me why they didn't join the Greeks or the Russians back in the day when 10 Anglican clergy left the CofE and were accepted by the Antiochians. The story varies according to who you speak to. The Greeks and Russians seem to have thought that the Anglican clerics should have become lay people for a while rather than being fast-tracked over into the Orthodox ministry.

From what I can gather, Antioch has often been more accommodating towards Western converts than some of the other jurisdictions. Some suspect that Antioch had an eye for the main chance and seized the opportunity to extend its own operations in these islands ... although from what I can gather from the British clergy who were part of that initial group in the mid-1990s, they haven't had a great deal of input from the Antiochian bishops across the Channel.

Some were hoping they'd get a British bishop but I'm also told that this was never going to happen ... so they've got a Syrian chap and very nice he seems to be too, by all accounts - although I've not met him.

It's seen as a big deal by some of the Antiochians as it's the first time there's been an Orthodox Metropolitan based here, they say, who actually has an Archdiocese based on an 'actual' and proper location rather than a made-up one, as it were.

Metropolitan Anthony was given the title 'of Sourozh' which is an actual place, of course, but not one connected with these islands in any way.

As for dear old Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, he's 'of Thyatira and Great Britain.' Again, Thyatira is an actual place, of course, but it's just there in the title as a Greek location to hang it all on ...

It's been explained to me that he's more like a suffragen bishop than anything else.

I'm not sure what status Bishop Gregorios has as the leading Greek cleric here in the UK.

It's all very complicated and probably a microcosm of the situation Mousethief describes in the USA, where there are more Orthodox, of course, both cradle and convert.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if things weren't equally as messy in Australia, Canada, the Far East, Latin America, Everywhere Else in the World ...

In fairness, there is an emerging Pan-Orthodox initiative here in the UK but the various jurisdictions do overlap and tread on one another's toes.

In many ways, it reminds me of what happened with the various 'R1' and 'R2' networks and 'streams' back when the UK 'restorationist' new-church thing was at its height and differing 'apostolic teams' ended up competing with one another in the same towns or cities.

Same sort of thing but different churchmanship.

One clean shaven, the other hirsute.

From what I can gather, the Orthodox scene in the UK has always been rather eccentric. The late, lamented Fr Ephraim Lash was intriguing but something of an odd-ball. Dear old Metropolitan Kallistos is lovely and like some 1950s Oxford Don - but he's still regarded as too 'Anglican' by many of the Greeks ...

I don't know much about the Serbs and Romanians here, although you do come across a few of them in the Antiochian parishes.

And this is just the 'diaspora' and its periphery, we haven't really touched upon the issues in the Balkans, Russia, Greece and other traditonally Orthodox countries.

I've heard that the Athonite monks have largely come out against the Council - although even there, I'm told that there are some who are not unsympathetic to the EP.

I don't know what to make of it all, but I can't say I'm too surprised. As Shipmates know, I'm very much an Orthophile but I could happily bang their bearded heads together at times.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Gamaliel

I am an Orthophile too, but find it hard to follow. I think even many Orthodox must find it hard to follow.

Kallistos Ware is Metropolitan of Diokleia. It is totally titular. Gregorios is 'of Thyateira and Great Britain'. Kallistos Ware and Ephrem Lash do represent the donnish Hellenophile group of converts. And Archimandrite Ephrem was quite eccentric, as you say. As is (in a different way) his brother, Prof Nicholas Lash, and his late uncle Dom Sebastian Moore.

As I understand it, the co-operation in the regional pan-Orthodox assemblies was mandated by the preparatory commission for the Great & Holy Council. How/if they work I do not know.

The frustrating thing is that I think Orthodoxy has something very valuable to contribute to the western Christian 'scene'. But they seem to prefer squabbles amongst themselves.
 

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Posted by LawyerWannabe (# 14186) on :
 
Actually, the Greek Archdiocese of Great Britain and Thyatira (which is part of the Ecumenical Patriachate) is headed by Archbishop Gregory.

Metropolitan Kallistos (along with the three other bishops) are suffragans to the Archbishop.

Adding to the scenario, we also have the British branch of the Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe (which entered the UK following the unpleasantness involving former Bishop Basil (Osbourne) and the Patriarchate of Moscow). This one is also part of the Ecumenical Patriarchates.

The Antiochians, Russians, Serbians and Romanians are also present but only the first two have a bishop resident in the Isles.
Bulgaria has one priests but he falls under the Metropolis of Central and Western Europe based in Vienna (I think?).
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok. I've attended two conferences of The Fellowship of St Alban & St Sergius and, by and large, like what I see there - some very eirenic Orthodox, Anglican and RC clergy for the most part.

I know two Antiochian parishes quite well and have visited some Greek and Russian parishes with British clergy.

My observations would be that some of the parishes are struggling, others are doing reasonably well, whereas some are so fixated with liturgical niceties - rather like some Anglo-Catholics are - that they descend into liturgical bullying at times.

I've been marked indelibly by my encounters with Orthodoxy, it'd got under my skin and into my system somehow - almost despite me.
 

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Posted by LawyerWannabe (# 14186) on :
 
Well a lot of the armchair theologians appear to be up in arms with many accusing the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Synod of embracing heresy.

Given how conspiracy-minded a lot of Eastern Europeans are, a common accusation is that the EP is a stooge of the US government and various Masonic Lodges. Currently some of the more vocal ones are claiming that Patriarch Bartholomew et all are about to go on "full on Uniate" and that the Russian Church must stand up as the Defender of Orthodoxy, the true senior leader of the Church and deal with those pesky Greeks.

Oh vey. Pass me the booze.
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's all very complicated and probably a microcosm of the situation Mousethief describes in the USA, where there are more Orthodox, of course, both cradle and convert.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if things weren't equally as messy in Australia, Canada, the Far East, Latin America, Everywhere Else in the World ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Archimandrite Ephrem was quite eccentric, as you say. As is (in a different way) his brother, Prof Nicholas Lash, and his late uncle Dom Sebastian Moore.

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And he was lovely. Eternal memory. (His last posting was a Greek church off the Holloway Road in a former Welsh noncon chapel. It was the nearest Orthodox church to my home when I lived in North London and sometimes attended services there.)

I hope his website is left going with all his liturgical translations.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I met Fr Ephrem Lash once or twice without knowing who he was until much later ...

Yes, he was lovely. Although, from what I can gather, like most of the Orthodox clergy I've met, he wasn't beyond getting involved in the odd jurisdictional spat.

I suspect it comes with the territory to a large extent. I'm not sure what the answer would be unless it could be decided that every land-bloc or country with significant numbers of Orthodox should have a single territorial Metropolitan or something ... but that would still leave the issue as to which Patriarchate they should be connected to.

It's hardly surprising that the RCs in particular have a pop at the Orthodox over this one. But I'm not sure that a Papacy is the answer either ...


 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
When I heard of Archimandrite Ephrem's death I tried to find his website to print off what I could, but find it I could not. It was called something like Theotokos or Metanoia or something (obviously neither of those, of course).
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
The old boy was keen on IT. He used to have all manner of I-Pads and tablets and so on tucked away in his cassock.
 

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Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :
 
Is anyone still in touch with Father Gregory [name removed]? His views on this, and other matters, would be very enlightening if he could be persuaded to return to the Ship.

[ 17. June 2016, 20:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

Unless posters, past or present, post here under their real name and make it unambiguously clear that it is their real name, don't ever post it, or anything you might think is it, on their behalf, unless you want instant attention from an admin.

Whatever their practice off this site, people's real names are theirs to use here as they wish - or not. Don't make assumptions in that respect on their behalf.

/hosting
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The old boy was keen on IT. He used to have all manner of I-Pads and tablets and so on tucked away in his cassock.

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