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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Move to reverse or negate the referendum decision.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Curiosity killed posted this in another place .....
Apparently there's a petition for a second referendum - crashing the yougov site.
I think it merits a thread of its own with some discussion.
For me, I'll do anything, clutch at any straw, to change the decision to leave. I suspect that many people are going to wake-up to what they have done and regret it.
[link removed] is a link to the site.
The petition has attracted tremendous support - well over a million signatories.
[host note: link removed in line with policy for petitions etc. to be linked to only in signatures]
[ 25. June 2016, 21:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Unfortunately I think there's zero chance of this working. I doubt anyone has an appetite to go through all of that again, and what would we do if the vote was then to remain? Best of three?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Given that over 16 million people voted in the referendum to remain, what will 1 million of them signing a petition prove?
I have signed it, but regard it as pissing in the wind.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Not much. But let's see where it gets to by the end of the weekend. Maybe several million may have more of an impact.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
It occurs to me that the majority of MP's wanted to remain. Maybe they will grasp at this straw, declare the referendum void, act shocked at the xenophobia unleashed during the campiagn, call for a period of calm with Cameron staying in power and then, after a respectable period, call another referendum. At least we wouldn't get Boris. As for the Leavers feeling very annoyed at their wishes being ignored - well, a week is a long time in politics, as someone said.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I posted that comment in Hell because I thought the petition stood as much chance as a snowball in the inferno. There is a Twitter tag of #BrexitinFiveWords which is worth checking out. I suspect this attempt to change the vote will be seen as: EU Remainers are bad losers, which was one of the posts. (Sorry, struggle with links on my phone).
I voted Remain, but looking around in the polling station as I did so, I wondered why I'd bothered as it felt like a wasted vote. I voted in one of the areas where the result was close to 70%Leave, 30% Remain.
[ 25. June 2016, 12:10: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
At least we wouldn't get Boris.
Boris said he joined the Leave campaign because Cameron's deal with the EU was not strong enough. He said he aimed to go back to the EU if we voted leave to get a better deal.
If you want to remain in the EU, Johnson could be your best bet.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Much as I'd vote again in such a referendum like a shot, I can't see the rest of the EU wanting to put up with the UK doing the hokey-cokey.
And the Daily Wail would be livid. We'd need at least two of the Leave-supporting papers to recant I think before a new referendum stood a chance.
Maybe if a period of economic chaos gets blamed on the Leave Campaigners lying through their teeth we might get a change of mind in the UK that looks lasting enough for the EU to accept a second referendum. Though by then they'd probably insist we take the Euro and give up the rebate and so on (not something I'd especially object to myself).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
As an American, I don't have a dog in this fight.
However, it would set an extremely bad precedent if people could keep demanding new referendums whenever they didn't like the vote on the last one.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, Farage did say that a 48-52 vote should lead to a re-run. Admittedly, he was talking about a narrow win by Remain and doesn't have the moral fibre to realise his argument is equally valid with a narrow win by Leave.
Another referendum with the same question would be meaningless. Letting the Leavers to form a government and produce a White Paper for a Brexit and then having a referendum on that question is meaningful (also what should have been done in the first place - at least to the point of having the Leavers produce an equivalent to a White Paper).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I am hoping that cool heads will prevail, and that there will be negotiation between the UK gvt and the rest of the EU, with a second referendum on the terms. In reality, for this to happen would require the UK government to hold off on invoking Article 50 for goodness knows how long. Furthermore, it requires an awful lot of goodwill from the remaining EU. Now, I am a thoroughgoing Eurosceptic and have been ever since the Lisbon Treaty, and I think the portrayal of the UK as a troublemaker is unfair. But I also think that there comes a point when one has to part ways, and that time has probably arrived.
I agree that a second referendum purely on the same question would pointless and inflammatory.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
The wording of the petition ....
“We the undersigned call upon HM government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum.”
Now, this uses the future tense so I presume that there was/is a rule somewhere that could be invoked.
Thus, surely a reasoned argument could be made (with appropriate heavy spin!) for a re-run, with both sides promising to be calm and honest (well, one can hope) in their campaigning after appropriate talks with the EU (as per Boris).
Perhaps I misunderstand ... if this is a petition about future referenda, then the cause is lost for the recent one. Anyone clarify?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Moo
You said as and American, you don't have a dog in this fight. Have you checked your 401k this morning. You probably took a very big hit.
Americans are very much involved. Britain will now have to renegotiate new trade deals with us. Many American companies with European offices in London will be moving out of GB in the very near future.
Frankly, I can understand why Wales and the other outlanders voted overwhelmingly to exit the EU. They saw no returns for them staying in. Their wages have been stagnant of as long as American wages. There is a lot of anger out there on both sides of the pond. We are in this together.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
Thing is, Gramps49, a lot of the areas that voted to Leave are significant beneficiaries of EU funding (see elsewhere a Shipmate linking to Cornwall asking after voting Leave whether that funding would be matched by the newly-independent [WTF does that even mean? - Ed] govt). So to paraphrase Thunderbunk elsewhere on the Ship - that resounding crack you hear is England and Wales shooting themselves in the foot.
[ 25. June 2016, 13:30: Message edited by: Kittyville ]
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, Farage did say that a 48-52 vote should lead to a re-run. Admittedly, he was talking about a narrow win by Remain and doesn't have the moral fibre to realise his argument is equally valid with a narrow win by Leave.
Indeed - plus I do recall this government introducing minimum thresholds for trades unions to vote for strike action, with the enthusiastic support of Mr Johnson.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Perhaps I misunderstand ... if this is a petition about future referenda, then the cause is lost for the recent one. Anyone clarify?
Ifs and buts, as per the Telegraph.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
As an American, I don't have a dog in this fight.
However, it would set an extremely bad precedent if people could keep demanding new referendums whenever they didn't like the vote on the last one.
Moo
In Canada, we're sort of used to it.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It would cause deeper division and more bitterness. It's a done deal, we had long enough to make up are minds.
Maybe if there are a million and a half folks out there who voted Leave as a protest, and under no circumstances wanted Leave to win, then we could be asked to all queue outside Westminster and beg for our vote to be withdrawn.
The queue may number a few hundred regretful souls who didn't mean for the house to fall in, no more I wouldn't think.
[ 25. June 2016, 14:38: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I haven't signed it, because I think a vote should be respected. But, if it turns out the leave campaign comitted significant misconduct - then I think it would be legitmate to allow mps a free vote on brexit.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I haven't signed it, because I think a vote should be respected. But, if it turns out the leave campaign comitted significant misconduct - then I think it would be legitmate to allow mps a free vote on brexit.
Is telling and repeating lies sufficiently misconductly? But then both sides did that.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
There is one slight chance.
It's possible, given that Mr Cameron is going to spend the next three months in Downing Street drowning his sorrows, whilst Mr Johnson goes off on his coronation tour that Article 50 won't be invoked until Mr Johnson's accession. Whilst this happens the demerits of the vote become more apparent as 'Project Fear' turns into 'Project I Told You So You Fucking Fools'. It's also possible that Mr Corbyn will be replaced by someone who bears some resemblance to a credible PM. Mr Johnson then repeals the Fixed Term Parliament Act and goes for a snap election to give him a mandate for his specific leave proposals. UKIP run on a platform of 'Leave Means Leave' on the grounds that these give too much power to the EU. Meanwhile Mr or Ms Credible announces that a vote for the Labour Party will be taken as a vote to repudiate the referendum and that a Labour Party with a viable majority will have a Parliamentary mandate to do so. Mr Farron chips in to say the same about the Lib Dem Parliamentary contingent. The 48% vote, augmented by the worst case of buyers remorse since the 1992 General Election, get Mr or Ms Credible (and the Lib Dems) elected with a thumping parliamentary majority whilst Johnson and Farage have an unedifying scrap about immigration and get hammered.
It's not a terribly plausible scenario, mainly because I can't see the EU waiting patiently for the UK to invoke Article 50 for all that time whilst the European economy takes a hammering. But a government that got elected between now and the invocation of Article 50, which stated on page one of its manifesto that, if elected, they would set aside the referendum result would have both a mandate and the legal authority to do so.
St Jude, ora pro nobis!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
... I think the portrayal of the UK as a troublemaker is unfair. ...
It is entirely fair. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.
Our politicians have played this appallingly for years, and now we poor infantry have to reap the whirlwind of their uselessness. It doesn't feel fair, but perhaps it's our fair punishment for tolerating both them and our own unreformed political system for so long and not even voting for a partial reform in the referendum on that five years ago.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I spoke to someone this afternoon who voted Leave as a protest against increasing power in Brussels and is now slightly stunned, and concerned by the result. It's affecting his business, people not buying things when they are uncertain about the future.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I spoke to someone this afternoon who voted Leave as a protest against increasing power in Brussels and is now slightly stunned, and concerned by the result. It's affecting his business, people not buying things when they are uncertain about the future.
This is not rare. As I mentioned above, Canadians are experienced with referenda. In both the 1980 and 1995 referenda, I have Québecois non-nationalist friends votre for the Yes, on the grounds that Québec needed to: a) make a statement that it could control its destiny if it chose to do so, b) let other provinces know that Québécois needed to be respected more, c) renegotiate some aspects of the Constitution (no specifics in mind, however), and d) make a self-affirmative statement. None of them thought that a Yes vote would result in departure and I was variously told that I was silly, a scaremonger, and a puppet of corporate imperialism.
I sat through many many many inter-departmental meetings preparing and meandering over the second referendum (as well as during the Charlottetown Accord referendum of 1992), and in the corridors and anterooms of Exalted Spaces for the first one, and can assure shipmates that it seems to be a really inane way to make decisions-- votes are often on the basis of general political feeling at the time and (may I emphasize this?) almost never on the question asked.
Even with the Canadian approach of Yes and No committees, with information sessions and buckets of useful information online and in the papers, with both public and private networks holding town halls and Q&A sessions, very little discussion took place on the essence of the question. Most of it focussed on general frustration with a range of issues, or on red herrings spouted forth (apologies for the mixed metaphor) by one side or the other.
Callan's vision, while on the surface quite bizarre, may well be the only practical way forward. The Somali barista yesterday suggested that perhaps the Queen should step in because does she not have many loyal tribesmen from the Highlands?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
There is one slight chance.
It's possible, given that Mr Cameron is going to spend the next three months in Downing Street drowning his sorrows, whilst Mr Johnson goes off on his coronation tour that Article 50 won't be invoked until Mr Johnson's accession. Whilst this happens the demerits of the vote become more apparent as 'Project Fear' turns into 'Project I Told You So You Fucking Fools'. It's also possible that Mr Corbyn will be replaced by someone who bears some resemblance to a credible PM. Mr Johnson then repeals the Fixed Term Parliament Act and goes for a snap election to give him a mandate for his specific leave proposals. UKIP run on a platform of 'Leave Means Leave' on the grounds that these give too much power to the EU. Meanwhile Mr or Ms Credible announces that a vote for the Labour Party will be taken as a vote to repudiate the referendum and that a Labour Party with a viable majority will have a Parliamentary mandate to do so. Mr Farron chips in to say the same about the Lib Dem Parliamentary contingent. The 48% vote, augmented by the worst case of buyers remorse since the 1992 General Election, get Mr or Ms Credible (and the Lib Dems) elected with a thumping parliamentary majority whilst Johnson and Farage have an unedifying scrap about immigration and get hammered.
That's the bit that won't work, because a sizeable proportion of the Remain vote and probably an even higher proportion of the buyer's remorse Leave vote will be made up of tribal voters who always vote for whoever is wearing the right colour rosette and would no more dream of doing otherwise than they would of eating their steak blue/well done* (delete as applicable)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
I signed it just to have the pleasure of hearing Gove and Johnson defend themselves in parliament. Above 100,000, they'll have to debate it. Brett leadership are utterly, utterly clueless. They have no plan at all.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
... I think the portrayal of the UK as a troublemaker is unfair. ...
It is entirely fair. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.
I agree, more or less.
But I don't think the British public (or their representatives) have ever really bought in to the "ever closer union" part of the deal, whereas the leadership of the rest of Europe mostly has.
Which means that the UK isn't going into the various European negotiations with quite the same assumptions as everyone else. Which is, I think the cause of much of the "troublemaking".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
My feeling.
There will be a period of upset while politics reforms itself. If I had the energy I would be looking for a campaign for a stronger civil society to join. We need a change that sets parameters of what is acceptable and that means we need to talk about respect for those that differ.
Secondly, there will be a whole lot of politics about the departure treaty. Not prejudging that but I am quite sure when leaving becomes more concrete it will not be as readily pleasing to so many different factions.
Thirdly I then expect in two years a second referendum on whether to accept the package. The cynic in me suggests that then people will reject that too.
So in two years time, we will have a vote to leave and a vote not to accept the conditions of leaving.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, I can understand why Wales and the other outlanders voted overwhelmingly to exit the EU. They saw no returns for them staying in. Their wages have been stagnant of as long as American wages. There is a lot of anger out there on both sides of the pond. We are in this together.
Wales voted Leave by a small but clear margin (a little smaller than the margin in England). The only "overwhelming" votes were to remain in Scotland, and obviously in Gibraltar.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
There is one slight chance.
It's possible, given that Mr Cameron is going to spend the next three months in Downing Street drowning his sorrows, whilst Mr Johnson goes off on his coronation tour that Article 50 won't be invoked until Mr Johnson's accession. Whilst this happens the demerits of the vote become more apparent as 'Project Fear' turns into 'Project I Told You So You Fucking Fools'. It's also possible that Mr Corbyn will be replaced by someone who bears some resemblance to a credible PM. Mr Johnson then repeals the Fixed Term Parliament Act and goes for a snap election to give him a mandate for his specific leave proposals. UKIP run on a platform of 'Leave Means Leave' on the grounds that these give too much power to the EU. Meanwhile Mr or Ms Credible announces that a vote for the Labour Party will be taken as a vote to repudiate the referendum and that a Labour Party with a viable majority will have a Parliamentary mandate to do so. Mr Farron chips in to say the same about the Lib Dem Parliamentary contingent. The 48% vote, augmented by the worst case of buyers remorse since the 1992 General Election, get Mr or Ms Credible (and the Lib Dems) elected with a thumping parliamentary majority whilst Johnson and Farage have an unedifying scrap about immigration and get hammered.
That's the bit that won't work, because a sizeable proportion of the Remain vote and probably an even higher proportion of the buyer's remorse Leave vote will be made up of tribal voters who always vote for whoever is wearing the right colour rosette and would no more dream of doing otherwise than they would of eating their steak blue/well done* (delete as applicable)
To quote Roj Blake: "It's our best chance, I did not say that it was a good one".
But there are a large number of people in Tory/ Lib Dem marginals who voted for that nice Mr Cameron and economic stability and are now, one imagines, thinking that this is not the pig in a poke, they had in mind. And, if I am right about the economic costs of Brexit, this could well make Black Wednesday and the subsequent defection from the Tories look like a vicarage tea sale. And, of course, it cuts both ways 37% of tribal voters for Labour voted for leave and some of them, at least, would vote for a pig in a red rosette at a General Election.
To be honest I think that there are probably too many variables to click into place for it to work. But if the stars are right...
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, I can understand why Wales and the other outlanders voted overwhelmingly to exit the EU. They saw no returns for them staying in. Their wages have been stagnant of as long as American wages. There is a lot of anger out there on both sides of the pond. We are in this together.
Wales voted Leave by a small but clear margin (a little smaller than the margin in England). The only "overwhelming" votes were to remain in Scotland, and obviously in Gibraltar.
And London.
Wales' result surprised me. I can't find it now, but did see an article recently with a map indicating that Wales (particularly the west coast) was one of the highest beneficiaries of EU funding in the whole of the UK.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, I can understand why Wales and the other outlanders voted overwhelmingly to exit the EU. They saw no returns for them staying in. Their wages have been stagnant of as long as American wages. There is a lot of anger out there on both sides of the pond. We are in this together.
Wales voted Leave by a small but clear margin (a little smaller than the margin in England). The only "overwhelming" votes were to remain in Scotland, and obviously in Gibraltar.
Indeed. We had the edifying spectacle yesterday of Cornwall CC pleading that it's not going to lose its (currently EU) financial input which is funding infrastructure developments in what is, despite how it looks to holidaying English, actually a deprived area with terrible average wages. Having voted as a region to leave.
Similarly I don't know what the Welsh Valleys thought they had to gain. All the Welsh people I actually know are horrified; as with Scotland, they are seriously considering whether to push for Welsh independence and rejoining the EU as Wales. They certainly don't trust an essentially English government in London to give a monkeys' - they haven't for centuries, so why'd they start now?
Is this the chance Mebyon Kernow have been waiting for all these years?
[ 25. June 2016, 19:00: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All the Welsh people I actually know are horrified; as with Scotland, they are seriously considering whether to push for Welsh independence and rejoining the EU as Wales.
And how are they going to manage meanwhile, while they wait to have their application assessed, and will they be able to meet all the criteria for membership?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
Not necessarily endorsing the petition. Though who was it who said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"?. If it had gone the other way, I doubt Farage would have shut up - how many times has he failed to be elected?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All the Welsh people I actually know are horrified; as with Scotland, they are seriously considering whether to push for Welsh independence and rejoining the EU as Wales.
And how are they going to manage meanwhile, while they wait to have their application assessed, and will they be able to meet all the criteria for membership?
I think they'd hope to get things moving during the 2+ years before the UK exits. Do you have a better plan for them?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Not necessarily endorsing the petition. Though who was it who said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"?. If it had gone the other way, I doubt Farage would have shut up - how many times has he failed to be elected?
Oh hush. This is a man who told us we'd have another £350m a week for the NHS, then said that was a silly idea once he'd had enough people say "hey, that's a good idea, go on then, do it". He's hardly going to be consistent enough to realise the implication of something he said, is he?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All the Welsh people I actually know are horrified; as with Scotland, they are seriously considering whether to push for Welsh independence and rejoining the EU as Wales.
And how are they going to manage meanwhile, while they wait to have their application assessed, and will they be able to meet all the criteria for membership?
I think they'd hope to get things moving during the 2+ years before the UK exits. Do you have a better plan for them?
I must say that I have no sympathy.
I dislike all nationalist parties on principle. If they get their way they will have us all throwing nuts at one another from separate trees. But If I were a Scot I would be throwing in my lot with Nicola Sturgeon at the moment.
The Welsh, on the other hand, along with a number of the regions of England have voted to leave the EU and whilst bleating that they want to keep the EU funding they were happy to trouser before the wicked day of destiny.
Fuck 'em. They voted to impoverish themselves. They have their reward.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Bit of a blanket condemnation there really, Callan - the Welsh people I know didn't vote for this.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If you look at the map of the in/out results then the North West of Wales - Gwynedd - voted to remain. I was surprised at Ceredigion and Powys ... but, sadly, not at the results in South Wales where, apart from the coastal areas/the Vale of Glamorgan, the vote was overwhelmingly to leave.
The reason for this is that it's a traditional Labour heartland and traditional Labour voters - like it or not - are alarmed by fear of immigration. Blaenau Gwent was solidly for leaving despite having the lowest proportion of non-UK born residents anywhere in the UK.
I'm afraid those of us on the liberal left, The Guardian reading chattering classes, are going to have to ask and answer some hard-questions.
We have let down the working class.
Big time.
Consequently, the siren-songs of Brexit have wide appeal.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
There's a different dynamic operating in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Hence the way things worked out differently than they did in Wales and in the old industrial areas of the Midlands and the North.
On the idea of a second referendum. Even though I voted Remain I think it would be counter-productive and only fuel the paranoia of sections of the Brexit block.
Don't get me wrong, I respect those on the left who voted Brexit and would be the first to acknowledge that they raised some genuine concerns about Brussels, accountability and democracy etc.
However, what swung it, in my view, was a sense of abandonment and despair in the old industrial heartlands which all too easily translates into, 'We don't want foreigners coming here and taking our jobs ...'
This is an unpalatable pill to swallow for those, like me, who are on the liberal left. But swallow it we must.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've just spotted your post Callan.
I can't let that pass. Even though I'm living in England. I must ask you to step outside. Join me in Hell.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, I can understand why Wales and the other outlanders voted overwhelmingly to exit the EU. They saw no returns for them staying in. Their wages have been stagnant of as long as American wages. There is a lot of anger out there on both sides of the pond. We are in this together.
Wales voted Leave by a small but clear margin (a little smaller than the margin in England). The only "overwhelming" votes were to remain in Scotland, and obviously in Gibraltar.
And London.
Wales' result surprised me. I can't find it now, but did see an article recently with a map indicating that Wales (particularly the west coast) was one of the highest beneficiaries of EU funding in the whole of the UK.
The two large, sparsely-populated and poor constituencies running down the west coast voted Remain. As did Cardiff, Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan (the rich bit that sticks out near Cardiff). The rest, including all those valleys that depended on EU regional funding, voted out.
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Pause for thought.
Best thing I've read today.
Here, here.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Pause for thought.
Best thing I've read today.
Well there was a Leave MP on Channel 4 News today. When the interviewer asked him: "So did Boris not really want the vote to be Leave?" he wouldn't answer the question! When asked when Article 50 would be activated he carefully left the "never" option open!
How weaselly.
I voted "Remain" and wish the vote had gone that way, but it would now be even worse to say "stuff you" to those who voted "Leave". It would reinforce the narrative "nobody actually cares what we think". We should just get on with leaving now.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
A lecturer in law at John Moore's has suggested that Liverpool should apply to secede and join the Republic of Ireland ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm afraid those of us on the liberal left, The Guardian reading chattering classes, are going to have to ask and answer some hard-questions.
We have let down the working class.
The mess we are in is a product of the toxic media environment we have in this country, where the various organs of the press serve only as producers of manufactured outrage.
So no, I reject this characterization (or at least would only accept it heavily qualified). The way to solve the problems of depressed industrial areas would be to move in the direction of social democracy and proper regional development policies and bodies with powers to carry them out.
When Milliband made tiny steps in this direction he was branded a communist firebrand.
What we don't need is more neoliberalism (of whatever stripe) with an injection of racism. That is what I fear we'll get though.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
He's hardly going to be consistent enough to realise the implication of something he said, is he?
I don't credit him with being self-aware enough to realise it. I'll keep pointing it out to his supporters though.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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