|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Is Dobson Backtracking on Trump Conversion?
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Well this is interesting. Dobson isn't so sure anymore that the mangled apricot hellbeast has been born again. This from RedState (ultimate source=the Resurgent) and this tweeter.
In a nutshell:
1. Dobson is walking back his claim that the Donald has converted;
2. The person he got this news from in the first place is known charlatan Paula White.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I will try to keep this Purgatorial, but the few times I have made myself listen to Dobson's radio show, I' ve come away with the impression that he is a rather...erm... Credulous individual.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Dobson is the sort of person who believes what he wants to believe. During the 2008 election campaign he held that if Obama was elected Iran would get nukes and use them to impose a two state solution on Israel/ Palestine. Now one could argue that Obama was insufficiently hawkish on the Middle East, which isn't my view, but it's not obviously mad. One could argue that Iran with nukes would make the world a more dangerous place, which would be my view. One could argue that Iran seeks the destruction of the state of Israel which would be my view, but with the qualification that it is notes high on the "to do" list as they imply, on the grounds that the obvious replacement would be militantly Sunni and I can see why the Israeli PM doesn't really want to take chances over. But a nuclear armed Iran, militantly hostile to Israel, imposing a peaceful settlement on the region? I'll have whatever you're smoking.
The reason, of course, is that 'Bible prophecy' states that the formation of Israel is an essential precursor to the Second Coming, so from Dobson's point of view there is no existential threat to Israel but he still wanted to sabre rattle over the Middle East. If your world view is as obviously based on cherry-picking whatever you want to believe then the Donald can be a Christian or not depending on how you feel when you get up in the morning.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I think it's plausible deniablity.
Dobson's validation of Trump's "conversion" made it onto at least one Facebook feed I saw of MoTR US evangelical missionaries. It legitimises an evo vote for Trump. I'm sure his backpedalling will not be similarly retweeted by my acquaintances, but he can bring it out later as and when the not-quite-unthinkable happens, a bit like Farage and the £350 million.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
I'm guessing Dobson's statement was meant to circulate within the relatively closed-off evangelical subculture, essentially to reassure evangelicals that Donald Trump's moral character wasn't something they needed to worry about. ("The theocratic equivalent of money laundering" was the way one blogger put it.) He most likely didn't intend this kind of cynical endorsement of Donald Trump as a good evangelical to be noted by the wider society or have to bear any kind of critical scrutiny. The interesting thing is Dobson's offered rationale:
quote:
All I can tell you is that we have only two choices, Hillary or Donald. Hillary scares me to death. And, if Christians stay home because he isn’t a better candidate, Hillary will run the world for perhaps eight years. The very thought of that haunts my nights and days.
Asked about the state of Trump's soul, Dobson resorts to discussing Trump's electoral prospects. The idea of a woman being President of the United States apparently gives Dobson nightmares. Claiming Donald Trump represents evangelical virtues (even if he's only a "baby Christian") apparently does not.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Claiming Donald Trump represents evangelical virtues (even if he's only a "baby Christian") apparently does not.
Hillary is also (nominally) a Liberal. Liberals aren't True Christians, therefore Trump is the only Christian choice.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
("The theocratic equivalent of money laundering" was the way one blogger put it.)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The interesting thing is Dobson's offered rationale:
quote:
All I can tell you is that we have only two choices, Hillary or Donald. Hillary scares me to death. And, if Christians stay home because he isn’t a better candidate, Hillary will run the world for perhaps eight years. The very thought of that haunts my nights and days.
Asked about the state of Trump's soul, Dobson resorts to discussing Trump's electoral prospects. The idea of a woman being President of the United States apparently gives Dobson nightmares. Claiming Donald Trump represents evangelical virtues (even if he's only a "baby Christian") apparently does not.
To be fair to Dobson: as a member of this subculture, it's not Hillary's femaleness that bothers the evangelical right nearly so much as her strongly pro-choice stance. That is certainly the case for Dobson (which is not to suggest he's not also strongly patriarchal-- he is-- just that pro-life trumps all, pardon the expression).
Which I think again, illustrates the problem.
As an evangelical, I'm passionately pro-life. But it's been evident for decades for anyone with ears to hear that the political strategy enacted by pro-life evangelicals for the last 40-some years is deeply flawed. It is first of all, highly selective-- "pro-life" when it comes to unborn babies, when it comes to war, poverty, health care, death penalty, incarceration-- not so much. Even more so, the blind adherence not just to "pro-life" values in this limited way, but to a particular strategy (overturning Roe v Wade) as the one and only way to accomplish that goal is deeply flawed. It led us to ignore the evidence that Democratic economic/social policies result in fewer abortions than Republican ones. And (as Jim Wallis details in God Politics) it's caused us to get into bed with increasingly nasty creatures, to turn a blind eye to all sorts of atrocities as long as the candidate in question pays lip service (no need for actual action, thank you very much) to overturning Roe.
And that's very much what you see going on right now in the evangelical camp. Lots of the sorts of statements above: "of course we can't vote for Hillary..." as a default, a priori assumption that needs no further consideration. I've heard lots of hand-wringing from evangelicals about how much they hate to vote for Trump, but I've yet to hear a right wing evangelical lay out the argument why they absolutely can't vote for HIllary. It's just a "given": Hillary is the anti-Christ. Pres. Hillary will usher in the apocalypse.
Once you start with that sort of assumption, Trump is right: he could stand on 5th Ave. shooting random strangers and still win their vote. But they want us to know they feel really, really bad about it.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As an evangelical, I'm passionately pro-life. But it's been evident for decades for anyone with ears to hear that the political strategy enacted by pro-life evangelicals for the last 40-some years is deeply flawed. It is first of all, highly selective-- "pro-life" when it comes to unborn babies, when it comes to war, poverty, health care, death penalty, incarceration-- not so much.
To say nothing of the NRA's idolatrous eisegesis of the Second Amendment! Some of the same evangelicals (not you, I know) treat it as if it were more inspired and inerrant than the Beatitudes.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Once you start with that sort of assumption, Trump is right: he could stand on 5th Ave. shooting random strangers and still win their vote. But they want us to know they feel really, really bad about it.
Probably almost as bad as Pilate felt when he washed his hands.
[ 30. June 2016, 18:50: Message edited by: fausto ]
--------------------
"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
Then there's the whole issue of a strategy that relies entirely on legislation-- outlawing abortion-- to the exclusion of any attempts to transform hearts (or again, giving women the resources needed to choose otherwise). As Greg Boyd details in "The Myth of a Christian Nation" attempting to enforce Christian values/priorities (or our particular version of Christian values/priorities) thru such heavy-handed coercion is inherently oxymoronic because it's investing in the "ways of this world" ("power over" is Boyd's term) rather than the ways of the Kingdom ("power under"). Spending the last 40 years pursuing this failed legislative agenda is not just a lost opportunity to present a more winsome version of evangelical gospel-- it's a refutation of the very gospel we want to be promoting.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
The mention of prolife leads me to ask if Trump is pro anything. Not seeing too much positive there.
As for conversion, no doubt he converted to Cheetos and Dobson misheard.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The mention of prolife leads me to ask if Trump is pro anything.
Yes, he is. He is pro-Trump.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
Remember kiddies, he could be about to become President Hellbeast. At which point the whole nation is born again. As citizens of hell.
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
When asked if he ever asked for forgivenes, Trump answered, "Why should I?"
The photo of him meeting with evangelicals shows a old Playboy photo of him standing with a porn star
It is not only Dobson that has blinders, it also appears so many other evangelical leaders have the same blinders on. Falwell comes to mind. Franklin Graham has also endorsed Trump.
Meanwhile, millennials continue to flee the evangelical church.
Evangelical leaders just keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
When asked if he ever asked God for forgiveness, his reply:
quote:
We I take, when we go, and church and when I drink my little wine – which is about the only wine I drink – and have my little cracker, I guess that’s a form of asking for forgiveness, and I do that as often as possible because I feel cleansed, OK? But, you know, to me that’s important, I do that, but in terms of officially, I could say, ‘Absolutely!’ and everybody, I don’t think in terms of that. I think in terms of, let’s go on and let’s make it right.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
When asked if he ever asked God for forgiveness, his reply:
quote:
We I take, when we go, and church and when I drink my little wine – which is about the only wine I drink – and have my little cracker, I guess that’s a form of asking for forgiveness, and I do that as often as possible because I feel cleansed, OK? But, you know, to me that’s important, I do that, but in terms of officially, I could say, ‘Absolutely!’ and everybody, I don’t think in terms of that. I think in terms of, let’s go on and let’s make it right.
Holy shit! He cannot let go his narcissism long enough to form a coherent sentence.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
I knew I was aiming too high in expecting a coherent paragraph.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
He is a regular participant in wine-and-cracker time? (Why does this remind me of graham crackers and juice at preschool?) Can anybody verify this? What church is he supposedly a member of?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
He is a regular participant in wine-and-cracker time? (Why does this remind me of graham crackers and juice at preschool?) Can anybody verify this? What church is he supposedly a member of?
According to wikipedia, he is Presbyterian. I'm guessing that's via his Scottish mother.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
He is a regular participant in wine-and-cracker time? (Why does this remind me of graham crackers and juice at preschool?) Can anybody verify this? What church is he supposedly a member of?
It's a bit difficult to nail down. Norman Vincent Peale, who he says is "his pastor" left the pastorate in 1984 and died in 1993.
Reminds me of Reagan, who long listed Bel Air Presbyterian as his church, and indeed his name was on the roles. But when asked to confirm that he actually attended there, the pastor confirmed that, yes, he attended quite regularly-- every 4 years, regular as clockwork.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Ah, Norman Vincent Peale. Whom Tom Lehrer sarcastically derided in 1965 as a "deep philosopher." I'm guessing Trump seldom darkened the door of a church after his mother stopped making him go. Which is not a horrible thing, unless one, and one's Evangelical ass-lickers, pretend otherwise.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
Miss Amanda Mystery Worshipped Marble Collegiate Church in 2005. There's no mention of wine and crackers as it was not a Communion service. (Do the Reformed Church and/or the Presbyterian Church use wine?)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Miss Amanda Mystery Worshipped Marble Collegiate Church in 2005. There's no mention of wine and crackers as it was not a Communion service. (Do the Reformed Church and/or the Presbyterian Church use wine?)
Not usually. But then marble collegiate is not a Presbyterian church. All part of the convoluted trump religious narrative
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
As noted in the CNN report, when he was a child, Trump's family attended First Presbyterian Church of Jamaica in Queens, which is a PC(USA) congregation. Trump was confirmed there, and that apparently is the reason he claims to be Presbyterian, even though at some point his family started attending Marble Collegiate instead. As noted, Marble Collegiate is Reformed (RCA)—first cousin to Presbyterian, but not Presbyterian.
And yes, some Presbyterian congregations do use wine, though as cliffdweller says, probably not that many percentage-wise. The rule is that if wine is used, a non-alcoholic alternative should be available.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Narcissism is a personality disorder that cannot be turned on or off or set aside. Trump is what he is.
I remember the time the RCA church in the community were I interned at decided to use wine and the common cup. The RCA pastor got coached by my supervisor how to use the common cup.
The time came for communion. The people were ushered up for the first communion table. The pastor gave the common cup to the first person saying: "Drink ye all of it."
They had to assist the person back to the pew.
True story.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Narcissism is a personality disorder that cannot be turned on or off or set aside. Trump is what he is.
I remember the time the RCA church in the community were I interned at decided to use wine and the common cup. The RCA pastor got coached by my supervisor how to use the common cup.
The time came for communion. The people were ushered up for the first communion table. The pastor gave the common cup to the first person saying: "Drink ye all of it."
They had to assist the person back to the pew.
True story.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
The late Frank Carson, an Irish comedian had two catch phrases for which he became famous.
"It's a cracker!" meaning so funny, you'll crack up with laughter, and
"It's the way I tell 'em" meaning a good joke or a good story improves when told by a funny man with good delivery.
(Explanations to take account of pond differences!)
The UK also had a sports commentator, the late David Coleman. Although very able and respected, by colleagues, he was also capable of mangling the language at times. "Private Eye" delighted in recording these under the heading "ColemanBalls".
This stuff about his faith strikes me as DonaldBalls. And certainly "the way he tells 'em" confirms the impression of both an incoherent mind and an uncertain memory. I don't think he's a cracker (US slang) but I'm more and more convinced he's a crackpot. Someone who is "crazy or very strange" (Merriam-Webster definition).
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Barnabas--
What US slang meaning of "cracker" are you intending? I only know of it as a slur against white people, ahd Urban Dictionary agrees on that. Just trying to clarify.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Wiki was my friend
quote:
Cracker, sometimes white cracker or cracka, is a usually derogatory and/or offensive term for white people, especially poor rural whites in the Southern United States. In reference to a native of Florida or Georgia, however, it is sometimes used in a neutral or positive context or self-descriptively with pride (see Florida cracker and Georgia cracker).
I don't think that fits the Donald. He sure ain't poor rural white.
[ 03. July 2016, 10:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
IMHO, not a good word to use, nor any other racial slur.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Do you think it shouldn't be used in Ship of Fools posts? That might be an issue worth discussing in the Styx if you'd like to do that. Maybe I was too entranced by the verbal closeness of cracker and crackpot?
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
The most probable etymology of the word is classist, rather than racist. IME, it is still used by white people in such a manner. That said, regardless of the origin, for a white person to use it referencing another white person, how can that use be racist?
This is not an argument for liberal use of the word, just pedantic musing.
[ 03. July 2016, 15:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
Anyway... Trump is a little too orange to be considered white.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
for a white person to use it referencing another white person, how can that use be racist?
You mean like blacks using the "n" word amongst themselves? I don't like it when I hear it, but then again I'm white. I suppose I would call another white person a cracker in jest, but it's not something that peppers my everyday speech.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Barnabas--
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Do you think it shouldn't be used in Ship of Fools posts? That might be an issue worth discussing in the Styx if you'd like to do that. Maybe I was too entranced by the verbal closeness of cracker and crackpot?
Well, AFAIK, we're already not supposed to use racial slurs here. I'm not trying to stir anything up. I figured you just were mistaken about what it means over here. Not sure what to do with the fact that you'd already looked it up.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Golden Key
OK. I really wasn't aware of the sensitivity over the term, which I don't think has an equivalent in the UK. I apologise for giving you and anyone else offence. Noted for the future.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Thanks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
FWIW, I've lived all of my 50+ years in the American South, and my experience is similar to what lilBuddha says: that "cracker" is primarily a classist term used by some whites in reference to other whites. It's pretty much interchangeable with "poor white trash" or, as originally used, "redneck."
That said, there are certainly some well-known instances of the term being used by blacks as derogatory of whites. Usage by people like Malcolm X and Trayvon Martin come to mind.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Well, Trump appears to be white trash regardless of how much money he claims to have.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
FWIW, I've lived all of my 50+ years in the American South, and my experience is similar to what lilBuddha says: that "cracker" is primarily a classist term used by some whites in reference to other whites. It's pretty much interchangeable with "poor white trash" or, as originally used, "redneck."
That said, there are certainly some well-known instances of the term being used by blacks as derogatory of whites. Usage by people like Malcolm X and Trayvon Martin come to mind.
It is also used in a fair number of American rap songs. I was not arguing that it cannot be racist, but that its context imparts that meaning.
Most racial slurs are racist words with racist origin, even though they can be used in a non-racist way.
Cracker is a classist word that has, in some instances, been co-opted as a racial slur.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
History has taught that whether a politician -or tvangelist- is (or claims to be) born-again, carries no guarantee whatsoever for born-again behavior.
If Christians in the U.S.A. want an alibi to vote for the Donald, then of course his being born-again becomes relevant. But does anybody really see any true symptoms of that?
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Tamen wrote:
quote:
FWIW, I've lived all of my 50+ years in the American South, and my experience is similar to what lilBuddha says: that "cracker" is primarily a classist term used by some whites in reference to other whites. It's pretty much interchangeable with "poor white trash" or, as originally used, "redneck."
FWIW, in the movie(and maybe the book) Gone With The Wind, set in the 1860s(obviously), black characters use the phrase "white trash" to insult certain supposedly declasse white characters.
As I don't think I've ever seen an earlier usage of the phrase(I mean the 1860s, not the 1930s when the film was made), I have wondered if it indicates that the term originated among African Americans. Though it's doubtful to what extent blacks in the antebellum south would have felt themselves at liberty to denigrate freely the social standing of even lower-class whites. (In the scene I recall, a fairly formidable female slave uses the phrase within the privacy of the plantation home, to insult some guests who have not arrived yet.)
[ 04. July 2016, 17:06: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
I believe there will be many, many more Christians who will not vote for Trump regardless of what Dobson or Falwell or Graham say. Those three leaders (and others like them) are so removed from Christianity, it is difficult to call them Christian, IMHO.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
FWIW, in the movie(and maybe the book) Gone With The Wind, set in the 1860s(obviously), black characters use the phrase "white trash" to insult certain supposedly declasse white characters.
As I don't think I've ever seen an earlier usage of the phrase(I mean the 1860s, not the 1930s when the film was made), I have wondered if it indicates that the term originated among African Americans.
According to Wikipedia, the term originated in the 1830s "as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites." By 1855, it was also used by upperclass whites.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
FWIW, in the movie(and maybe the book) Gone With The Wind, set in the 1860s(obviously), black characters use the phrase "white trash" to insult certain supposedly declasse white characters.
As I don't think I've ever seen an earlier usage of the phrase(I mean the 1860s, not the 1930s when the film was made), I have wondered if it indicates that the term originated among African Americans.
According to Wikipedia, the term originated in the 1830s "as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites." By 1855, it was also used by upperclass whites.
Ah, thanks. That precisely mirrors the usage in GWTW, since the slave who utters the line was clearly "house".
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I believe there will be many, many more Christians who will not vote for Trump regardless of what Dobson or Falwell or Graham say. Those three leaders (and others like them) are so removed from Christianity, it is difficult to call them Christian, IMHO.
They don't even speak for most American evangelicals anymore.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
FWIW, in the movie(and maybe the book) Gone With The Wind, set in the 1860s(obviously), black characters use the phrase "white trash" to insult certain supposedly declasse white characters.
As I don't think I've ever seen an earlier usage of the phrase(I mean the 1860s, not the 1930s when the film was made), I have wondered if it indicates that the term originated among African Americans.
According to Wikipedia, the term originated in the 1830s "as a pejorative used by house slaves against poor whites." By 1855, it was also used by upperclass whites.
I seem to recall in "Roots" that the slaves in the fields used to sing "Not po' white please, for I'd rather be an N-word*". It's probably fair to say that solidarity among the oppressed wasn't really a thang in the antebellum South.
*They didn't actually use the word, "N-word" of course. Political correctness wasn't a thang in the antebellum South, either.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Those three leaders (and others like them) are so removed from Christianity, it is difficult to call them Christian, IMHO.
“God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are...”
This thread takes me back to my evangelical youth, when not only was it common knowledge that all non-evangelicals were not Christians, but we were told by certain austere and ancient evangelicals – who apparently just knew - that most professing evangelicals are ignorant and worldly and not really Christians either.
I thought of starting another thread off the back of this one, called something like Who Gets To Decide Who Is And Isn’t A Christian, And On The Basis Of What Criteria?
FWIW, I don’t like Trump, and find his apparent grasp (or lack thereof) of Christian truth tenuous to say the least, but then I could say the same about countless others who label themselves (or are labelled) as Christian, but I wouldn’t therefore presume to conclude anything about their relationship to God.
What about Nelson Mandela’s seemingly very nominal connection with Methodism (some commentators are not sure that he wasn’t in fact a JW), or Martin Luther King’s serial adultery?
What about Augustine’s persecution of the Donatists, or Luther’s anti-Semitism, or Calvin’s burning of Servetus?
What about RC popes such as Alexander VI or Julius II, or the various Orthodox ecclesiastical worthies who distinguished themselves by anti-Semitism and blinding opponents?
What about the heterodox religious syncretism which can be found globally and historically in Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism?
All dismissable as not Christians at all?
It is one thing to be cynical about the exploitation of religion for political purposes, but quite another to arbitrarily decide that anyone whose politics you disagree with cannot be a Christian at all.
[ 05. July 2016, 06:41: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Those three leaders (and others like them) are so removed from Christianity, it is difficult to call them Christian, IMHO.
“God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are...”
As far as I'm concerned it's not about deciding who is Christian and who is not. I myself would probably fall short of any standard I could come up with.
It is about the deception of Christians by politicians that play the "I am Christian" card, and do not behave like Christians, and whose political goals are anything but Christian.
At least since the Moral Majority the U.S.A. has been a severely misled nation in that respect.
The only time in recent history that the U.S.A. had a president who, besides being a decent human being, let his Christianity seriously influence his politics, he was quickly gotten rid of after one term.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I have no idea whether Trump is a Christian or not, or whether the reported (then retracted) conversion was for real.
But *if* people led him to Christ for their own political expediency, they did a horrible thing. And no newbie Christian should be put under the pressure he'll face from them and their minions.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
|
Posted
There is an opinion piece on the editorial page of today's (July 5, 2016) New York Times called "The theology of Donald Trump". by Peter Wehner, a Republican who worked in the administrations of 3 Republican presidents. I'm including a link but in case it doesn't work, just google the title and author.
It's well worth a read.
--------------------
"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
