Ship of Fools: Joy and sorrow, celebration and loss

Thread: Joy and sorrow, celebration and loss Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

Recently, I recall a debate about Mother's Day of how some people say that celebrating Mother's Day is harmful for people who can't have children, people who have abusive or absentee mothers, people who lost mothers etc...

I was pondering this and I realized that the problem with this approach is whether or not it is a good thing to not celebrate joy simply because other people might feel loss or pain.

For example, whenever an issue about weddings or marriage comes up, I sometimes hear concerns from single people about how the church and society in celebrating marriage ignores or stigmatizes them. But should we stop celebrating a marriage or a loving relationship because other people do not have that same experience?

How can we celebrate joy, while acknowledging that others are sad? Or to put it another way, how can we recognize and be attentive to people's experiences, whether good or ill?

[ 01. July 2016, 19:04: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I see this crop up quite a bit on Father's Day on Facebook. Between absentee and dead fathers, it's an emotional roller coaster out there.

I think part of the problem is the way we have become so public and "braggy" about our celebrations. People feel like they need to do the Facebook / Instagram post, and tell everyone how you are showering your special mom or dad with love this year. No doubt some of those special moms or dads would be upset if the public display didn't happen- think about the rite of sending flowers to the office on Valentine's day- part of the holiday for some folks is showing off that someone loves you. So if you already felt inadequate because you didn't have a great relationship with your dad, you suddenly have everyone you know shoving their (supposedly) great relationship with theirs in your face. That's not good.

Granted, I am a fairly private person, so I may just be reading this as a problem that other people who are not me are causing. But I think the need to publicize personal celebrations probably makes those who have a troubling relationship with the day feel worse.

(I would add that at some point, even the person suffering hurt has to acknowledge that it isn't about them all the time. That's a harder one for me to address, though, since I am generally not one of those people who has a hard time at the holidays. Maybe someone with more experience will share where the line between appropriate degrees of upset and selfish dramatic self pity should be drawn.)

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

My complaint about Mother's Day celebrations in church is when it's implied that women can't be real women if they're not mothers. I almost walked out during a sermon once. I'm childless by choice, but it has to be far worse for those who want to be mothers but cannot for one reason or another. (I personally have never heard that men need to father children in order to be real men.)

I am happy to celebrate others' happy occasions -- wedding anniversaries even though I'm divorced, births of children even though I'm not a mother, etc. Just don't tell me I'm inferior because my circumstances are different.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I do think that commerce driven celebration adds to the negative feelings some have about the subject of the celebration.

As far as celebration in general, it is, IMO, a net positive for us. Yes, there will always be those who feel left out or feel increased sadness because they do not share in that particular joy.
Refusing to celebrate because of this just removes the joy from everyone. And that helps no one.

And I say this as someone who has felt the absence of a joy being celebrated by others.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
My complaint about Mother's Day celebrations in church is when it's implied that women can't be real women if they're not mothers.

IMO, most churches do this every day of the year.
To be fair, this is a natural thing, both for our species and for an organisation. Celebrating more of that group. That is often done without acknowledging and affirming others is the shame.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
My complaint about Mother's Day celebrations in church is when it's implied that women can't be real women if they're not mothers.

Our rector is very sensitive about this (or at least she appears to be from the perspective of this adoptive father, who will never have his own biological kids, but feels every bit "dad" to his daughter). We always acknowledge people who are moms, people who are mom figures, and people who struggle with not being able to have kids.

That said, no matter how careful your congregation is, there is definitely a difference in the way you are treated when you are a single member and when you are a parent member.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Celebrating relationships is fantastic, and there can't be too much of that. Celebrating certain statuses is a whole other thing.

Taking your mother to lunch is celebrating a relationship. The church giving flowers to mothers on Mother's Day is celebrating a status. The church giving flowers to all women on Mother's Day, which is what happens at the churches I'm most familiar with, says to us that motherhood is the most important aspect of being female -- I get a flower because I could have borne children. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For example, whenever an issue about weddings or marriage comes up, I sometimes hear concerns from single people about how the church and society in celebrating marriage ignores or stigmatizes them. But should we stop celebrating a marriage or a loving relationship because other people do not have that same experience?

I think you need to listen more carefully to what single people are actually saying to you. What is it about the way your church celebrates marriage that is hurtful to single people? I don't know any single people who would say couples shouldn't celebrate their weddings and anniversaries. So what exactly is happening that some people find hurtful?

For instance, I've been in churches where couples come to the front of the church during the Sunday morning service and publicly receive a special blessing or recognition on their anniversaries. To me that elevates their status as married people in a way that is totally unnecessary.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for churches to perform anniversary blessings for married couples during worship. Divorce destroys families and communities and weakens Christian witness, so there should probably be more such blessings, at least in my country.

Regarding church celebrations of parenthood, I notice that Father's Day always receives less attention than Mother's Day. This suggests that the Church largely shares society's belief that motherhood matters more than fatherhood. Or perhaps it's a way of compensating for the male-centredness of the religion.

Since churches do benefit significantly from the efforts and commitment of unmarried women, there should probably be more public recognition of this, but I don't know what this would mean in practice.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

The only thing that makes sense to me on a day like Mother's Day is to do what the thread title says-- address all the different things people will be feeling on this very very emotionally laden day. Address the fact that there are mothers who are experiencing the joy of motherhood and getting lots of sticky kisses and gross breakfasts (or was that just me?) in bed and handmade cards. But also address those who are mourning a child or a mother lost, or an estranged relationship. Address the complex feelings of those who are childless by choice, and those who are childless very much not by choice, and those who are muddling along somewhere in the middle. Address those who are acting as mothers to stepchildren and foster children or the neglected kids in their classroom or neighborhood but will never be recognized for that.

Mother's Day is always, always, always a complex muddle of contradictory feelings. If we're going to address it, address it all. If you're going to ask us to rejoice with those who rejoice you also have to be willing to mourn with those who mourn. If that's a bummer for those who are rejoicing then you really don't get what motherhood is all about.

Same thing with Father's Day-- although I echo the observation that it gets 1/2 the attn of Mother's Day. And, oddly, Mother's Day sermons seem to be poems about how we all need to be saintly and lovely like every mother is, whereas Father's Day sermons seem to be lectures all about how the men out there need to get it together and be better fathers.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

The approach that cliffdweller describes is what I'm used to in church. The reference to Mother's Day (or Father's Day) is almost always limited to the Prayers of the People, and (succinctly) covers most if not all of the bases.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

I agree, I think the Prayers of the People is the best place for it. This Father's Day we had a very full service with some other things we needed to pray for in the Prayers of the People, so I incorporated it in the greeting/lead up to the passing of the peace, so that what we were blessing one another with really was the peace of Christ in both sorrow and blessing.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

A local church celebrates anniversaries and birthdays - as in "If you have a birthday or anniversary this week come forward for a blessing."

This way everyone is included in the offer, not marrieds only.

I like the concept of celebrating relationship via doing something within that relationship, instead of celebrating the abstraction of a person's demographic status.

Or else celebrate all kinds of status - married yes and also those who go thru life without that companionship and burden sharing.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

At our church after the service ends and announcements, one of the priests reads a list of people with birthdays or couples with anniversaries in the coming week, and we sing "many years" ("God grant you many years" 9x).

On mother's day all the women get a flower, and we sing "Memory eternal" ("Memory eternal, Memory Eternal, May their memory be eternal" 3x) for our dead mothers. On father's day we sing "Memory eternal" for our dead fathers. Men don't get flowers which I think is discriminatory. On Memorial Day we sing "Memory eternal" for our dead military members/loved ones.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Regarding church celebrations of parenthood, I notice that Father's Day always receives less attention than Mother's Day.

That's presumably because Mothers' Day coincides with Mothering Sunday and has been part of the calendar of the Church of England for a very long time, whereas Fathers' Day is a pretty recent import.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

The pension fund services our diocese uses sends our church a humorous calendar each year. May 2016 has a cartoon on the left which shows a parishioner haranguing the priest for heartlessly failing to preach about Mother's Day, then in the drawing on the right, labeled A year later..., another parishioner is accusing the poor rector of making Hallmark holidays override the lectionary. You can't win!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Regarding church celebrations of parenthood, I notice that Father's Day always receives less attention than Mother's Day.
That's presumably because Mothers' Day coincides with Mothering Sunday and has been part of the calendar of the Church of England for a very long time, whereas Fathers' Day is a pretty recent import.

Do you know why the CofE hasn't had a male equivalent to Mothering Sunday?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Regarding church celebrations of parenthood, I notice that Father's Day always receives less attention than Mother's Day.
That's presumably because Mothers' Day coincides with Mothering Sunday and has been part of the calendar of the Church of England for a very long time, whereas Fathers' Day is a pretty recent import.
Do you know why the CofE hasn't had a male equivalent to Mothering Sunday?

Because Mothering Sunday basically grew out of the tradition of reverencing 'Mother Church'? It's more normal these days to offer thanks for mums - sometimes with a nod towards the Blessed Virgin Mary - though many churches aim their celebrations more widespread towards all good parents/guardians, in an effort to be fair.

Because every Sunday service is already basically founded in the patriarchal traditions of a male-centred norm for society, liturgically, theologically and culturally speaking?

Shorter answer: because there isn't a male equivalent to Mothering Sunday?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The idea of a day celebrating guardians of all kinds is a good idea, but it probably shouldn't be called Mother's Day/Mothering Sunday any more, as that's not accurate.

The 'Mother Church' idea is interesting. Coming from a Nonconformist tradition I've never met with Christians who refer to the Church in this way. Perhaps the RCCs still do, but I've not even come across it in the CofE.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The term 'Mother Church' or 'Holy Mother Church' is often used by Catholics to refer to the whole church.
But each one of us has our own 'mother church' which could be our parish church or the cathedral of our diocese.It was as a return to this sort of 'mother church' on the Mid-Lent Sunday or Laetare Sunday as it is sometimes called that Mothering Sunday originally recalled.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

There was a thread in Ecclesiantics on Mothering Sunday this past spring where the history of Mothering Sunday, the connection with Mother's Day and the issue raised in the OP were discussed. It seems worth noting here that the Mothering Sunday/Mother's Day connection seems to be almost exclusively English or British, or Australian. At least in the States, Mothering Sunday is one of those things that sounds oh so English. Mother's Day, meanwhile, happens in May here, not during Lent.

[ 02. July 2016, 13:10: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...On mother's day all the women get a flower...
On father's day ...Men don't get flowers which I think is discriminatory.

Yes. I was taught to associate "giving flowers" with the concept of a woman as recipient, but I've discovered men enjoy receiving a flower. Maybe we need to point that out to our churches? [Smile]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Yes. I was taught to associate "giving flowers" with the concept of a woman as recipient, but I've discovered men enjoy receiving a flower. Maybe we need to point that out to our churches?

Some men enjoy receiving flowers. Others of us wonder what the hell we're supposed to do with it when we're given one.

I tend toward the latter group (as, I'd wager, do some women). I'd much rather be given a beer.

But I've never been in a church that was in the habit of giving out flowers . . . or beers.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

The only time I have come across flowers being distributed in church on Mothers' Day, they were given to anyone who wanted (myself included), irrespective of gender.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Yes. I was taught to associate "giving flowers" with the concept of a woman as recipient, but I've discovered men enjoy receiving a flower. Maybe we need to point that out to our churches?
Some men enjoy receiving flowers. Others of us wonder what the hell we're supposed to do with it when we're given one.

I remember when they started giving flowers to male Olympic medalists on the podium and at first the guys awkwardly held the bouquets upside down like a bat or a racket in hand. They've gotten better at it. And now they raise them as objects of triumph.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The only thing that makes sense to me on a day like Mother's Day is to do what the thread title says-- address all the different things people will be feeling on this very very emotionally laden day.

This, if you're going to do it at all. IME, clergy tend to bring it up in the sermon, or make it the topic--but only mention how wonderful mothers and fathers are. Even the best parents make hurtful mistakes. And many people had unfit parents, or none. I think I've only heard one sermon where this was acknowledged. I found it was much healthier for me to skip church on days honoring parents.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

The only thing that makes sense to me (at least in UK/Commonwealth) is going back to it being about church. Giving mothers flowers in the service, I can just about cope with that but emetic - and how do you necessarily know who's a mother? Giving flowers to all the women, insulting. Giving flowers to everyone, a rather silly patch to keep giving out flowers when there is obviously a feeling that there are problems doing so.

M.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by M.:
The only thing that makes sense to me (at least in UK/Commonwealth) is going back to it being about church.

Ooh, a cultural revolution (where I live)!

(Staying home today to avoid the patriotic "hymns" and applause for "those who served our country" by which is meant only those who spent voluntary or involuntary time in the military.)

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(Staying home today to avoid the patriotic "hymns" and applause for "those who served our country" by which is meant only those who spent voluntary or involuntary time in the military.)

I'm thinking about slipping in just before the procession. We won't have anything about Independence Day in the service itself, but our organist is sure to play her usual medley of "patriotic" ditties for the prelude.
[Projectile]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

At least where I was this morning, the closing hymn/patriotic song was Lift Every Voice and Sing. I can live with that.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Firstly, I am part of the camp who would rather not have secular holidays mentioned in church. I don't even like New Year's Day being part of the liturgy - it is the Circumcision of Our Lord, the church year starts at Advent not Jan 1. Have a Father's Day BBQ (or whatever) in the church hall, just don't make a Hallmark holiday part of the liturgy.

Regarding marriage, I have no issue celebrating an individual marriage in church - however, criticising the Christian Wedding Industrial Complex is not at all the same thing as not celebrating an individual couple's wedding. Particularly for those of us who have been or are part of conservative evangelical churches, there is a whole attitude towards marriage which I feel is unhealthy and actually not in line with Scripture. It is putting marriage on a pedestal the Bible does not put it on, and particularly when combined with purity culture, does a lot of harm. Churches can and do make idols out of marriage.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by M.:
The only thing that makes sense to me (at least in UK/Commonwealth) is going back to it being about church. Giving mothers flowers in the service, I can just about cope with that but emetic - and how do you necessarily know who's a mother? Giving flowers to all the women, insulting. Giving flowers to everyone, a rather silly patch to keep giving out flowers when there is obviously a feeling that there are problems doing so.

M.

In this part of the Commonwealth, the UK tradition of Mothering Sunday is all but unknown. Mothers' Day is the second Sunday in May, with cards, presents and flowers. At St Sanity, we observe Laetere Sunday, during which the Mothers' Union prayer is said - and then blessed simnel cake as we file out.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
.... Christian Wedding Industrial Complex ....

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Nick--

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
At least where I was this morning, the closing hymn/patriotic song was Lift Every Voice and Sing. I can live with that.

Thanks for this. I've heard it a time or two, and know it's a sort of alternative national anthem. But I didn't know the lyrics are by James Weldon Johnson. (I love his poem "The Creation".)

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Sorry, Gee D, it was expanded from something Nick Tamen said upthread.

It was obviously an unwarranted supposition.

M.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I had missed his post. I'd like to know where that idea comes from.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I had missed his post. I'd like to know where that idea comes from.

Gee D, I got the impression that Mothering Day (distinct from Mother's Day) is observed in Australia from the OP in the other thread on Mothering Sunday, to which I linked upthread:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There was a thread in Ecclesiantics on Mothering Sunday . . . .

I'm glad to be corrected if I assumed too much from that post.

[ 04. July 2016, 12:05: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Nick--

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
At least where I was this morning, the closing hymn/patriotic song was Lift Every Voice and Sing. I can live with that.
Thanks for this. I've heard it a time or two, and know it's a sort of alternative national anthem. But I didn't know the lyrics are by James Weldon Johnson. (I love his poem "The Creation".)

Unfortunately, LEVAS is as difficult to sing as our official national anthem.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Nick--

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
At least where I was this morning, the closing hymn/patriotic song was Lift Every Voice and Sing. I can live with that.
Thanks for this. I've heard it a time or two, and know it's a sort of alternative national anthem. But I didn't know the lyrics are by James Weldon Johnson. (I love his poem "The Creation".)

It is sometimes referred to as the Black National Anthem. The words speak directly to the African American experience, which probably make it inappropriate for a true national anthem but wonderful as a patriotic song.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Unfortunately, LEVAS is as difficult to sing as our official national anthem.

True, but you should have heard us. A congregation of probably 1,300 led by an organist who really knows how to play LEVAS. There were more than a few damp eyes.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

There was a tangent a few years back about weather singing LEVAS in a non- black church is appropriative or self-congratulatory. I'm fond of it myself. I was in church in New York on Pride Weekend years ago, when it was sung. One of the servers was both black and gay, and old enough to have survived two civil rights movements. He was quite moved.

Back on track, I had a friend in law school who came from a Pentecostal background. At his church, any celebration not specifically mentioned in the Bible was not acceptable (even, among the older members, kid's birthdays). Even they started having a Christmas pageant of sorts about ten years ago, because the Pastor concluded that Christmas was such a cultural behemoth that it was silly to ignore it.

Is that part of the value of doing something to acknowledge secular holidays at a Sunday service? If you know members of your congregation are experiencing mixed and at some times troubled feelings around certain dates, do you actually have a duty to acknowledge it somehow?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

If something momentous happens in the big world outside the church doors, should it be mentioned inside? Say, if a bunch of people happened to be shot at some entertainment venue, should it not be mentioned inside the church? I don't understand the desire to draw a thick black line on the threshold of the church. Our real lives take place on both sides of the line. Shouldn't church address all of my life, not just the small portion that takes place inside the building?

[ 04. July 2016, 15:06: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

To have the church a garden locked, with no contact with what is happening outside, is a sure recipe for losing young people. The only things that grow in the dark are mushrooms.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Regarding church celebrations of parenthood, I notice that Father's Day always receives less attention than Mother's Day.
That's presumably because Mothers' Day coincides with Mothering Sunday and has been part of the calendar of the Church of England for a very long time, whereas Fathers' Day is a pretty recent import.
Do you know why the CofE hasn't had a male equivalent to Mothering Sunday?

This is the theological equivalent to "why isn't there an International Men's Day" isn't it?

As it happens, at a village church where, as a Curate in a larger ministry, I was largely left to get on with it we had a Family Service on the Third Sunday of the month which, invariably, fell on Father's Day. Having focused on the lectionary reading for whichever Sunday in Trinity it was I would, during the notices, announce that it was Fathers Day and as the mums* got flowers on Mothering Sunday it only seemed fitting that the Dads got something to and produced bottles of beer (small ones, because responsible consumption of alcohol and, more importantly, I was paying for this). It may be my imagination but we did seem to get a spike in the "unbelieving male parent who comes because the wife thinks it's important" demographic on this occasion!

*Actually, my Mothering Sunday message invariably made the point that it was about our mothers, about the motherhood of the church, and the motherhood of Mary, so if you were female and turned up you left with a pot plant and I always made sure that there was one placed under the statue of our Lady. The general subtext was that it's great that children in happy families get to do something nice for mum but we are here to wear rose vestments* and sing "Ye Who Own The Faith Of Jesus".
*Years later, in another church, I had a young man from a Con-Evo background assigned to me as a locum. He posted a selfie of himself in rose vestments, on Mothering Sunday, with the words "look what they have made me do". The comments underneath made me happy for weeks afterwards.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

So women get pot plants* and men get beer? This doesn't sound fair.
[Frown]

* I assume this is not what you mean by a pot plant.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So women get pot plants* and men get beer? This doesn't sound fair.

* I assume this is not what you mean by a pot plant.

...although the latter would even things out a bit. And also add to that spike in attendance... or at least mellow out all those complainers...

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So women get pot plants* and men get beer? This doesn't sound fair.

* I assume this is not what you mean by a pot plant.

HOT DAMN!

Leaps into TARDIS, to go back to 2009 and acquaint younger self of brilliant strategy to facilitate church growth and keep the PCC from being tetchy.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So women get pot plants* and men get beer? This doesn't sound fair.

* I assume this is not what you mean by a pot plant.
...although the latter would even things out a bit. And also add to that spike in attendance... or at least mellow out all those complainers...

So I guess that would be considered high church?

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So women get pot plants* and men get beer? This doesn't sound fair.

* I assume this is not what you mean by a pot plant.
...although the latter would even things out a bit. And also add to that spike in attendance... or at least mellow out all those complainers...
So I guess that would be considered high church?

You're just angling for a "tish-boom" now, aren't you?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I had missed his post. I'd like to know where that idea comes from.
Gee D, I got the impression that Mothering Day (distinct from Mother's Day) is observed in Australia from the OP in the other thread on Mothering Sunday, to which I linked upthread:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There was a thread in Ecclesiantics on Mothering Sunday . . . .
I'm glad to be corrected if I assumed too much from that post.

Yes, you did assume things that neither Bib or I was talking of. Mothering Sunday as in England is not as here. No talk of returning to the church where you were mothered. Some of us here observe it - but as an element of Laetere Sunday. The great celebration in churches and in secular life is the second Sunday in May, just as the US. Then Fathers' Day, a poor offshoot of Mothers' Day, comes along on the first Sunday in September. The days sort of bracket winter, although I doubt that's the reason for the September date. More likely to fit into the card manufacturer's timing.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, you did assume things that neither Bib or I was talking of. Mothering Sunday as in England is not as here. No talk of returning to the church where you were mothered. Some of us here observe it - but as an element of Laetere Sunday. The great celebration in churches and in secular life is the second Sunday in May, just as the US. Then Fathers' Day, a poor offshoot of Mothers' Day, comes along on the first Sunday in September. The days sort of bracket winter, although I doubt that's the reason for the September date. More likely to fit into the card manufacturer's timing.

fyi: In the US, Father's Day is the 3rd Sunday in June.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the desire to draw a thick black line on the threshold of the church. Our real lives take place on both sides of the line. Shouldn't church address all of my life, not just the small portion that takes place inside the building?

The church seems a lot more interested in addressing all of your life than all of mine. So the church isn't doing any better than the culture at large in that regard, which makes it hard to think the church places much value on my life as a single, childless person.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the desire to draw a thick black line on the threshold of the church. Our real lives take place on both sides of the line. Shouldn't church address all of my life, not just the small portion that takes place inside the building?
The church seems a lot more interested in addressing all of your life than all of mine. So the church isn't doing any better than the culture at large in that regard, which makes it hard to think the church places much value on my life as a single, childless person.

Exactly. Addressing ALL of life is a good--essential, even-- task of the church. But when we say "all" we need to mean
all. Those who are childless-- by choice or not by choice. Those who are mourning. Those who are estranged. All means all.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the desire to draw a thick black line on the threshold of the church. Our real lives take place on both sides of the line. Shouldn't church address all of my life, not just the small portion that takes place inside the building?
The church seems a lot more interested in addressing all of your life than all of mine. So the church isn't doing any better than the culture at large in that regard, which makes it hard to think the church places much value on my life as a single, childless person.

Yes, the church needs to address all of every member's life. Since you pose this as a rebuttal to my point, this must mean you wish to say that yes, the church should ignore all that goes on without its doors. Why? Because it doesn't love childless single people? So it should just shut up about anything worldly?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand the desire to draw a thick black line on the threshold of the church. Our real lives take place on both sides of the line. Shouldn't church address all of my life, not just the small portion that takes place inside the building?
The church seems a lot more interested in addressing all of your life than all of mine. So the church isn't doing any better than the culture at large in that regard, which makes it hard to think the church places much value on my life as a single, childless person.
Yes, the church needs to address all of every member's life. Since you pose this as a rebuttal to my point, this must mean ...

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, you did assume things that neither Bib or I was talking of. Mothering Sunday as in England is not as here. No talk of returning to the church where you were mothered. Some of us here observe it - but as an element of Laetere Sunday. The great celebration in churches and in secular life is the second Sunday in May, just as the US.

Thanks Gee D. I did understand from Bib's post that Mother's Day is totally separate in Australia from Mothering/Refreshment/Laetere Sunday, so I was assuming just pure (English-style) Mothering Sunday, without the Mother's Day overlay. I appreciate the additional info.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Not a problem. Since WW II, the numbers of those describing themselves as Anglicans have dropped each census from close on 50% to around 20%, perhaps a bit more, today. In that period, the social Anglicanism of the population at large has all but vanished, in contrast to the position in England. Church festivals, apart from Christmas and Easter, do not feature on the public consciousness. I can't speak of pre-1950 from direct knowledge, but I doubt that any church observance of Mothering Sunday gained great public recognition. It certainly has not since.

[ 05. July 2016, 03:39: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

Rather tardy in weighing in on this….. but…There’s an expectation in this area that secular holidays be mentioned during the service. So on Mother’s Day (TEC, so no Mothering Sunday) we give thanks “for our own mothers and for all those women and men who have acted like in a motherly was to us”. Similarly on Father’s Day, we give thanks “for our own fathers and all men and women who have acted in a fatherly way to us”. No posies/beer/cigars on either occasion.

It avoids the implication that motherhood/fatherhood trumps the single or childless life. Everyone in the congregation has had a mother and father – known or unknown, good or not so good -- and had others who taught them about life through the years.

On Independence Day we add the collect for the nation after that for the day; Memorial Day the prayer for those serving in the armed forces. On each day the sermon is based on the day’s lessons. It is all a compromise, but my immediate colleague and I try to keep the liturgy focused on God and God’s blessings and not on self, state in life or nation. Or so we think.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

And then there was the Lay Reader in our church who prayed, "For our Mothers who neutered us" one Mothering Sunday.

Huia

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