Thread: Blind spots and master Johnson Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by opaWim (# 11137) on
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I can understand why is it is in the interest of Tory party politics to give Boris Johnson the job of Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
Then again I can't believe that Theresa May was not aware of the callous offensiveness, to the rest of the world, of that appointment.
It seems to me that it is in the interest of Great-Britain to try to limit the self-inflicted damage (or maximize the profit, if you want to view it like that) of the Brexit. By unleashing Boris Johnson on the the diplomats and politicians of the rest of the world seems needlessly counter-productive to me.
So why do this?
[ 20. July 2016, 09:52: Message edited by: opaWim ]
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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I do not know the answers! However, I don't know about a 'callous offensiveness' to the rest of the world. I do not follow any of the texts and tweets which are all the rage these days - has there been much ado about the subject on them?
Those who follow politics closely could welladmire Theresa May's astuteness in putting Boris Johnson in a position where he will either be very good or very bad at the job, with no middle ground!
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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I'm not even British and I found that American press conference excruciatingly awful and very uncomfortable to watch. Nice to see him put on the spot; not so nice to see he couldn't admit what he said and apologise.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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It would be more profitable to look beyond the headlines about Mr Johnson.
For example, when referring to Mr Obama's Kenyan ancestry he was saying nothing more than the truth: Mr Obama's father was Kenyan and he still has Kenyan relatives, and those are things of which Mr Obama himself has said he is very proud. Furthermore, Mr Obama has spoken and written about his Kenyan grandfather being held by the British during the Mau Mau rebellion, and he is also on record as saying that his discoveries about that time lead him to view the UK in a less favourable light. Yes, he has said that he realises it was all a long time ago, but he has been honest enough to admit that it might - might - colour his views.
If Mr Obama can be honest enough to admit that, why is Mr Johnson wrong to repeat it?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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It reminds me of those jokes, this is a competition, first prize, a week in Skegness, second prize, two weeks in Skegness.
In politics, first prize, under secretary in the department of drains, second prize, foreign secretary.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Boris won't last long in the post, and Mrs May will have consigned him to eternally to the back benches. If she hadn't given him this huge rope to hang himself with he could have popped some time in the future to cause trouble.
This way he'll be in plain sight.
Clever woman.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Mr Obama can be honest enough to admit that, why is Mr Johnson wrong to repeat it?
So you think the leader of the UK's closest ally travelled to the UK and said he thought the UK should stay in the EU, giving bad advice because he harbors ill feeling toward the UK due to his Kenyan heritage?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Mr Obama can be honest enough to admit that, why is Mr Johnson wrong to repeat it?
Because of context, lack of necessity to say it, and motivation.
Your line of reasoning is like saying, "So-and-so admitted he has Bipolar Disorder, so why was I wrong to say it in a speech about something else, in such a way as to imply he's not fit to do his job?"
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
It would be more profitable to look beyond the headlines about Mr Johnson.
For example, when referring to Mr Obama's Kenyan ancestry he was saying nothing more than the truth: Mr Obama's father was Kenyan and he still has Kenyan relatives, and those are things of which Mr Obama himself has said he is very proud. Furthermore, Mr Obama has spoken and written about his Kenyan grandfather being held by the British during the Mau Mau rebellion, and he is also on record as saying that his discoveries about that time lead him to view the UK in a less favourable light. Yes, he has said that he realises it was all a long time ago, but he has been honest enough to admit that it might - might - colour his views.
Because as anyone with half an ounce of sense can tell, it was an effort by Boris to rubbish a black man because he has an African heritage. As if a black man can safely be ignored during a debate on global politics even when he is the POTUS.
It is exactly equivalent to saying to Angela Merkel that her views on Brexit should be ignored because she's German and we Brits won Two World Wars and One World Cup and we're not going to sit her and take lectures from the offspring of a country that produced Hitler.
quote:
If Mr Obama can be honest enough to admit that, why is Mr Johnson wrong to repeat it?
Talking about one's heritage is not the same as opening an invitation for someone else to erase your right to have a view on something.
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Mr Obama can be honest enough to admit that, why is Mr Johnson wrong to repeat it?
So you think the leader of the UK's closest ally travelled to the UK and said he thought the UK should stay in the EU, giving bad advice because he harbors ill feeling toward the UK due to his Kenyan heritage?
Wasn't it about Obama removing the bust of Churchill?
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Nicely put, RuthW.
I think Bojo will get the (well-deserved) media slagging for a while. He hasn't been "unleashed" (OP), more like "Aunt Sally'd".
He might survive. but only if he avoids further unfortunate quotes. The warriors of the news cycle will move on and find someone else to play with. But they'll have fun sticking pins in him for a while.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Matt Black: quote:
Wasn't it about Obama removing the bust of Churchill?
Once again, Boris Johnson's habit of twisting facts to suit his own agenda stands exposed.
Points to note:
1. The bust in question was on loan to George Bush Jr. personally, not a permanent gift to the American president, whoever that might happen to be.
2. It's by Epstein. Not sure I'd care to have it leering at my while I was trying to work, either, even if I had the option of keeping something that didn't belong to me.
[ 20. July 2016, 16:08: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on
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Ah, thanks! Should have known that Boris had got it....er...less than accurate!
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
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From BBC site: quote:
The London mayor, who penned a best-selling biography of Churchill, was born in New York but recently said he intends to renounce his American citizenship to prove his "commitment to Britain".
About time.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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And Obama has a bust of Churchill just outside his private office in the residential part of the White House. So the idea that he's dissing Churchill and the UK is bullshit.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Add to it the ludicrous conceit that Kenyan heritage might make one more averse to empire than plain-white US heritage. Because the average white American would just dig George III, Cornwallis and all that jazz. It's only a black man who might have a negative visceral reaction.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
From BBC site: quote:
The London mayor, who penned a best-selling biography of Churchill, was born in New York but recently said he intends to renounce his American citizenship to prove his "commitment to Britain".
About time.
He's said it multiple times, he's yet to actually do it. Whether it is because he does not truly wish to or whether the Home Office won't let him in order to keep deportation on the table...
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Add to it the ludicrous conceit that Kenyan heritage might make one more averse to empire than plain-white US heritage. Because the average white American would just dig George III, Cornwallis and all that jazz. It's only a black man who might have a negative visceral reaction.
Good Old BJ would never say anything remotely racist, would he?
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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Seem to to remember midst the NI troubles MP,s being handed that post almost like the poisoned chalice.
Considering the the current state of affairs in large areas of the Mid East and beyond I would say the Foriegn secretary's post holds that similar short-straw characteristic.
Maybe Bojo's been handed his new job as a punishment ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe Bojo's been handed his new job as a punishment
Nope. Just to keep him under control. By other people's guard dogs.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
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BJ has a popular following. They love him. What looks like imbecilic bluster to me clearly registers as something charming to them.
Theresa May has very conspicuously given the Brexit-related jobs to leading Brexiteers - except of course Michael Gove, and everyone understands why that is. In a sense she had to do something like this otherwise she would come under attack from the True Believers. But as B62 says, it does have the advantage of keeping him close. It also acts as giving him enough rope to hang himself if he so chooses, though he is generally held to be quite bright, so will have undoubtedly noticed that.
Of course, if the Brexit tendency can at best come up with something very damaging economically, it also gives Theresa May an escape valve for venting her extreme fury on the tendency that got us into this mess.
It's not often things come together quite this well, so I'm not surprised she took it. Meanwhile, hopefully friendly nations will continue to remind him of what an oaf he is. Unfriendly ones will do that anyway.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Oh, I think he can be very amusing. I noticed the other day, his remark that the plaster on the ceilings of various European chancelleries had fallen off to an extent because of Brexit. That did make me smile, it is a true Borism, as it is quite clever, even erudite. But I'm not sure if he ever stops.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
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Yeah - it never stops till the wheels fall off the clown car.
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Add to it the ludicrous conceit that Kenyan heritage might make one more averse to empire than plain-white US heritage. Because the average white American would just dig George III, Cornwallis and all that jazz. It's only a black man who might have a negative visceral reaction.
To be frank your average white, non-Irish, American who isn't Lyndon LaRouche wouldn't necessarily have a visceral reaction. This isn't the 19th century. Being on the same side of two world wars saw to that. As for the Irish, I would imagine their grievances have less to to with Banastre Tarleton and more to do with the British government's response to the Great Famine.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
though he is generally held to be quite bright, so will have undoubtedly noticed that.
Funny how such bright people fucked the referendum so badly.
IF that is intelligent, we could have done with a few more thick people.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
though he is generally held to be quite bright, so will have undoubtedly noticed that.
Funny how such bright people fucked the referendum so badly.
IF that is intelligent, we could have done with a few more thick people.
I think they are intelligent. The problem is, that doesn't mean they are any practical use. Their intelligence is more based on being educated than having a clue about the real world.
It is a prime example of where education and intelligence are not the only markers of someone suited to a role. This is not to diminish the value of education - we really need to listen more to those who know what they are talking about in academic circles - it is to say that a good education does not make for a good leader.
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Furthermore, Mr Obama [...] is also on record as saying that his discoveries about that time lead him to view the UK in a less favourable light.
Is he? Citation requested.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
though he is generally held to be quite bright, so will have undoubtedly noticed that.
Funny how such bright people fucked the referendum so badly.
IF that is intelligent, we could have done with a few more thick people.
I think they are intelligent. The problem is, that doesn't mean they are any practical use. Their intelligence is more based on being educated than having a clue about the real world.
It is a prime example of where education and intelligence are not the only markers of someone suited to a role. This is not to diminish the value of education - we really need to listen more to those who know what they are talking about in academic circles - it is to say that a good education does not make for a good leader.
I do understand this. But explaining it fully does not lend to biting sarcasm.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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Educated, intelligent and mind-numbingly stupid.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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We should learn from history
quote:
Here lies our sovereign lord the king,
Whose word no man relies on;
He never says a foolish thing,
Nor ever does a wise one.
And that was of Charles the II by a friend.
Jengie
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
We should learn from history
quote:
Here lies our sovereign lord the king,
Whose word no man relies on;
He never says a foolish thing,
Nor ever does a wise one.
And that was of Charles the II by a friend. ...
He did better than his dad. He died in one piece.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Chevening House looks like it may be good place for political Cluedo.
"Davies shot Bojo in the Library"
"Fox stabbed Davies in the Conservatory"
"Bojo axed Fox in the Dining Room".
But I suspect that all three Permanent Secretaries who will have the "deep joy" of supporting the unholy Trinity may need to research the minutes of a previous Permanent Secretary (who supported Duncan Sandys during his time as Secretary of State for the Commonwealth). It is said that when Sandys finally left that role, the Perm Sec sent a grateful minute around all the senior officials thanking them for their support and "rejoicing that the dark days were finally over".
Theresa May has advised Angela Merkel that there will be no Article 50 trigger this year. I wonder just how long it will take for the unholy Trinity to get any sort of Brexit act together. I wonder if Theresa is that bothered if, together, they make a pig's breakfast of their brief "to make Brexit a success". Or manage to kill one another in the process of trying.
There is a long game in play here, and I'm not sure anyone knows how it is going to end.
[ 21. July 2016, 08:24: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe Bojo's been handed his new job as a punishment
That's one way of looking at it, certainly. Having spun the 'facts' of Brexit during the Leave campaign thus helping to ensure the dissolution of Britain's relationship with the other EU nations, it will now be Johnson's job, in part, to relate in positive economic and diplomatic terms with some of the very nations he went out of his way to infer Britain would be better off not relating too closely with.
Whether or not he's capable of undoing some of the damage he's already instigated is unknown. He was quick enough to remove himself from the candidacy of the Prime Ministership. But not to stop himself getting this job (which no doubt has a few gravy-train perks attached to it). So at least he's not been as cowardly as Farage, in that respect.
But he may not last long and will probably heave a sigh of relief when he gets the boot and is left alone to go back to his little happy world of inane mumbling and pretend stupidity and lucrative media appearances. It's not as if he needs the job, or has to earn a living, or is particularly mindful of his reputation in the way ordinary people are. He won't be losing sleep over any negative consequences as a result of Brexit.
Posted by Callan (# 525) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
We should learn from history
quote:
Here lies our sovereign lord the king,
Whose word no man relies on;
He never says a foolish thing,
Nor ever does a wise one.
And that was of Charles the II by a friend.
Jengie
Charles acknowledged that this was true "because my words are my own and my deeds are those of my ministers". I imagine Her Majesty is reminded of this every time she is called upon to give The Queen's Speech to Parliament.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Educated, intelligent and mind-numbingly stupid.
That reminds me of my mum's favourite saying "How can anyone be so intelligent yet act so stupid?"
Oh mother, we are living in your time now.
Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on
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Be serious.
At this very time, when all around us is going crazydayz, when no one knows what tomorrow will bring, how could PM May NOT bring in Boris?!
Who know how long he will last for, but while he is in position, everyone is watching, everyone is focussed, everyone wants to to be able to watch a massive mess up.
Will it happen?
Who knows.
I hope not.
But loads of others will spend their summer waiting and hoping
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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It is a bit difficult though, isn't it, not to feel just the teensiest bit gleeful at the image of Theresa May calling Boris Johnson into her office to give him a right telling-off at having messed up the EU exit thus proving her right! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
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When I heard of Boris's new job, my first reaction was that it must be a hoax, then I thought it was payback for Gove, but then I remembered the ancient saying, "Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad".
Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on
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My theory is that it is part of the stitch up arranged in the 1922 Committee.
May was told (correct verb)
1. Leedsum will give up the challenge for leadership.
2. You get to be PM but...
3. Leedsum gets a substantive cabinet post
4. Boris gets one of the great offices
5. These brexiteers get these posts
Not sure if Gove's swan dive on the Tarpeaen Rock was mandated.
Why? The last thing the 1922 Committee wants is the party membership making a decision that they still consider theirs. Better a stitch-up than a lottery. Pretty sure Johnson has enough friends in the 1922 to get what he wants for a good while.
[For those not familiar with Tory Party shenanigans, the 1922 Committee is the group of mostly backbench MPs and the party chairman who actually run the party.]
[ 23. July 2016, 07:50: Message edited by: 3rdFooter ]
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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I can't believe that there would be that degree of control over a motley crew of MPs without one of them disagreeing and talking to the press about their disagreement.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Maybe Bojo's been handed his new job as a punishment
That's one way of looking at it, certainly. Having spun the 'facts' of Brexit during the Leave campaign thus helping to ensure the dissolution of Britain's relationship with the other EU nations, it will now be Johnson's job, in part, to relate in positive economic and diplomatic terms with some of the very nations he went out of his way to infer Britain would be better off not relating too closely with.
Would it be cynical of me to suggest that Mrs May had deliberately put Johnson, Davies and Fox in these positions in order to say, given enough time, "You promised you could get Britain these deals ... where are they?"
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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I don't think that is cynical at all; it's exactly what has been done. But it is naive. It is naive to think they actually care or ever even thought they would get a Brexit. For Boris, I'm convinced that he was out to destroy an old school rival, or at least make life difficult for him. It was through this that the mask fell off and instead of the bumbling jester we got a glimpse of the racist, xenophobic and deeply troubling and destructive character he really is. What is amazing is that so many either refuse to see it even when it stares them in the face, or more frightening still, they agree with him.
I think (hope) for the majority though, that it is more about the incapability of seeing it. The bumbling jester routine is so fixed in the mind that it now won't shift no matter what. It's a similar thing to what is going on with Trump and similar to the attitude to what will happen to Britain in Brexit. We are now weeks after the vote and already there is the petulant cry of the toddler on the naughtier step: I want all the benefits of the EU without having any responsibilities to it. That's not going to work out, but there are Brexiter's who are saying it will until they are blue in the face; even as everyone from Europe says, quite emphatically, 'no'. There's a very weird fantasy land element to all of it. It's a very, very weird and strange period of history and politics.
[ 23. July 2016, 11:31: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I can't believe that there would be that degree of control over a motley crew of MPs without one of them disagreeing and talking to the press about their disagreement.
The discussion will be in the 18 member executive and possibly a subset of that. It is the way the tory party has always done things. Just ask Chamberlain, Aiden and Thatcher. And yes they are that tight. Your career in the Tory party depends on loyalty to this committee.
A tory backbencher with morals and a backbone seems unfeasibly rare.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There's a very weird fantasy land element to all of it. It's a very, very weird and strange period of history and politics.
It is scary as fuck. On one side of the pond there is a group who got what they asked for but did not truly want and have no real idea what to do and the other side on the verge of electing a reality show buffoon who has no idea what the job he is vying for entails.
The electorate are truly fools.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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If the electorate are fools, then the politicians are knaves. They have consistently ignored sections of the population who feel neglected, ignored, and taken for fools in fact. This started with deindustrialization, but has carried on. I came originally from Oldham, which used to have skilled work, for example, in engineering. Now there are low-paid insecure jobs.
Housing is poor and in short supply, services are run down, because of austerity.
I think both Tories and Labour have been complicit in this.
I think Brexit is a shot in the dark, but where should the shot be directed? Nobody knows really.
Posted by Rocinante (# 18541) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Theresa May has advised Angela Merkel that there will be no Article 50 trigger this year. I wonder just how long it will take for the unholy Trinity to get any sort of Brexit act together. I wonder if Theresa is that bothered if, together, they make a pig's breakfast of their brief "to make Brexit a success". Or manage to kill one another in the process of trying.
There is a long game in play here, and I'm not sure anyone knows how it is going to end.
My four penn'oth:
Sometime next year May will summon the Brexiteers to pitch their proposals to her and a suitably sceptical audience of senior ministers, business leaders, elder statespeople, etc. At the end of the embarrassment she'll say something like "Is that it? A bit thin, isn't it? Well, we'll put it before parliament (on a free vote?) and if it gets voted down Brexit is off. And I don't care about any political consequences because I'm retiring soon anyway. You always said this was about parliamentary sovereignty, well I agree with you on that."
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
A tory backbencher with morals and a backbone seems unfeasibly rare.
Not that rare, but it is rare for one to make it beyond a junior minister/shadow minister role. Take one of the rare exceptions, William Haig's take on asylum This country must always offer sanctuary to those fleeing from injustice.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If the electorate are fools, then the politicians are knaves. They have consistently ignored sections of the population who feel neglected, ignored, and taken for fools in fact. This started with deindustrialization, but has carried on. I came originally from Oldham, which used to have skilled work, for example, in engineering. Now there are low-paid insecure jobs.
Housing is poor and in short supply, services are run down, because of austerity.
I think both Tories and Labour have been complicit in this.
Other than thinking knaves if far too polite a term, I do not disagree.
The NHS being the other prime example. Privatisation does no service to the patient. One need look no further than the American system to see just how fucked up that truly is.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Some hints of an EU deal, with membership of the single market retained, plus an emergency brake on immigration. I suppose this is 'all things to all men', but who knows if it will stick? I bet Cameron will wonder why he couldn't get this deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I bet Cameron will wonder why he couldn't get this deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years
As far as I can see, because it's a deal that is based on the UK not being in the EU. It's offering a Norway or Switzerland type of status with a temporary brake on immigration applying for just long enough for those negotiating the deal to appease their constituencies while their electoral mandate lasts. As I understand it, Cameron had already achieved the promise of a similar deal, but it failed to persuade the voters to remain.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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I'm completely mystified as to why anyone thinks seven years is a long time.
Perhaps this is enough for some of the "tactical" Brexiteers to call it a good deal, but it doesn't seem to come close to reasonable for anyone who actually supports Brexit.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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It's possible that nobody has a clue how to manage immigration. Restrict it too much and the economy might suffer, but what is 'too much'? I would think that some industries will be exempt from restrictions, e.g. farming, construction, catering.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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How is it that the Guardian knows of a deal when the negotiations haven't even begun? Is this more of a British wish list?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
How is it that the Guardian knows of a deal when the negotiations haven't even begun? Is this more of a British wish list?
I haven't seen anyone suggest that the Graun 'knows of a deal'. I think they said that there are hints. Possibly, this is a leak.
Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on
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The swivel-eyed headbangers have said it's not enough in any case.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Also, Bobojobjobs seems to be in approval of a deal like this, but yes, the Euro-Taliban will squawk.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/boris-johnson-distances-brexit-donald-trump-isolationism
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