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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: the origins of police
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
The police, we are told, are here to serve and protect. But given the amount of violence that the police serve on their fellow citizens, it makes one wonder exactly whom they serve and protect, and why, and how this situation came to be.
This article on the origins of the police is fascinating. If it's accurate, then it's the case that police body-slamming schoolteachers and shooting unarmed behavioral therapists and the like are not a bug, but a feature. It's exactly how the system was intended to work from the very beginning.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
As a troublesome adolescent, the police would turn up in a van, and suggest having three rounds with them in the back. Actually, nobody took them up on it, so I suppose it worked. But it gave me a permanent fear and resentment towards bobbies.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Nothing new in the article. The primary purpose of the police is to protect the status quo. Whenever there is a need for social change you will seldom find the police on the side of change.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I get rather tired of the same memes about police from America taken as true of everywhere.
The RCMP, or rather its predecessors, the NWMP and RNWMP (Northwest and Royal Northwest Mounted Police) were created to keep Americans out. Notwithstanding that Alberta has about 20% of its population descended from dried out (i.e., drought) farmers from there, and also because land speculation was much more strictly regulated in Canada.
The "us versus them" orientation toward police probably happens everywhere to a degree, but it is parochial to consider that bad American experiences are reflected everywhere. Brief searches indicate things like American police kill in 24 days the same number of people killed in England and Wales in 24 years. Even liberally adjusting for population, the problem is clearly much much worse for Americans. Canada is not so good, though we don't have national statistics, a reported extrapolated that our police shoot about 25 people a year, about 1/3 the number shot in California which has about the same population.
[ 24. July 2016, 16:53: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
The rate of killings by police in Canada may be far less than in the USA, but is nothing to be proud of, and the handling of them can be appalling. After a killing in British Columbia more than a month ago, the full explanation for it and the identity of the officer involved have not been released, even to the victim's family, and nobody expects them to be. I can't imagine that happening anywhere else. I don't think the safety of the community was in any way enhanced by this man's death, and nor were the community's respect for, and trust in, the police. (Statement of interest: I am acquainted with the man's parents).
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Even if one accepts the premise that the foundational purpose of the British police was crowd control, the British police was never supposed to be armed - because the rich and powerful were afraid of creating a parallel private army. Therefore, the fact that some units of the British police are able to carry out shootings at all is a bug, not a feature.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Therefore, the fact that some units of the British police are able to carry out shootings at all is a bug, not a feature.
It is the use of nonlethal violence that is the feature, at least according to the article. It says,
quote:
The new police force was designed specifically to inflict nonlethal violence upon crowds to break them up while deliberately trying to avoid creating martyrs. Now, any force that’s organized to deliver violence on a routine basis is going to kill some people. But for every police murder, there are hundreds or thousands of acts of police violence that are nonlethal — calculated and calibrated to produce intimidation while avoiding an angry collective response.
The occasional deaths, in this analysis, are an unfortunate side effect. The system, which is intended to intimidate the people, has another function as well:
quote:
The day-to-day life of patrolling gets police accustomed to using violence and the threat of violence. This gets them ready to pull off the large-scale acts of repression that are necessary when workers and the oppressed rise up in larger groups. It’s not just a question of getting practice with weapons and tactics. Routine patrol work is crucial to creating a mindset among police that their violence is for the greater good.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I agree that the situation is getting out of hand, but how exactly should the job of policing be handled, Josephine? Personally, I don't really have a clue. Many who say that police are doing a poor job and use too much violence basically say that they knew that the job was dangerous, so they should just suck it up and stop whining that criminals with guns might kill them. So what? It's their job to die for their community. I'd never be a police officer. I wouldn't trust what direction fear would push me.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Actually, there are two models of policing in the British tradition, one that uses firearms and one that doesn't.
The Metropolitan Police is the unarmed tradition, which is definitely geared towards crowd control and suppression of political activity, but not the suppression of revolt, which is the job of the Army.
The other tradition is the Royal Irish Constabulary, which was always armed as it was aimed explicitly at the protection of sovereignty and the suppression of rebellion so that the British Army could be spared for really big incidents like the Easter Uprising.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Ontario Provincial Police, the Sûreté du Québec and the Australian state police are all armed, and all are explicitly modelled on the RIC. They were all founded with the intent to protect state sovereignty in colonies with a weak military presence, usually with the intent to promote 'our kind of settlers' and to keep out 'their' settlers.
But I do note the distinct Marxist tone of the article cited by Josephine.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I agree that the situation is getting out of hand, but how exactly should the job of policing be handled, Josephine? Personally, I don't really have a clue.
One major change would be getting police departments out of the business of funding the local government. That seems to be a major factor in the communities with the most abusive police departments.
Police departments should focus on de-escalation and restraint. It's making a difference in Boston. And in Philadelphia and a few other places.
Civilian review boards. Dash cams and body cams (that are treated as public records, not as personnel records).
Keep records so that you can tell when racial profiling is happening, then train or discipline as needed to make it stop.
Policing is safer now than it's ever been. Police behavior should reflect that.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I have had a hell of a weekend which involved my first ever dealings close up with police.
I have been 100% impressed by their care, professionalism and appropriate handling of the complete pile of rubbish that they have had to deal with.
For now at least NZ Police have my vote.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{Macrina}}}}} ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Once upon a time I studied criminology, including the history of crime and policing. I don't think that is an accurate outline of the history of policing in the UK.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This is better - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_law_enforcement_in_the_United_Kingdom, but still misses out pre 1700s and the development on the policing of currency and the military that were very influential in the development of policing.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I have had a hell of a weekend which involved my first ever dealings close up with police.
I have been 100% impressed by their care, professionalism and appropriate handling of the complete pile of rubbish that they have had to deal with.
For now at least NZ Police have my vote.
Yup, I've had my moments as a teen, and later, and frankly I would not now be able deal with people who behave like I did with half the grace and benign restraint the police showed me. Sorry, but they have to use force, sometimes, that's the whole b///y idea.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I do note the distinct Marxist tone of the article cited by Josephine.
Indeed.
The article shows very little understanding of crime.
People of a Marxist bent tend to see the archetypal crime as the poor stealing from the rich. In other words, private action to accomplish what the Marxist seeks to accomplish by political action...
Some crime is indeed of that nature. But by no means all.
One glance at the newspapers should be enough to convince that there are a whole lot of seriously screwed-up people out there, whom the police are expected to deal with.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Very true. The Toronto Police Service, Canada's largest and oldest (1834) has a long, long history of being a defacto social welfare agency. Child welfare (now Children's Aid), animal welfare (Humane Society), among other things.
It all stemmed from the fact that the police were the only agency with significant local presence everywhere in the city, not just at City Hall.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Russ--
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I do note the distinct Marxist tone of the article cited by Josephine.
Indeed.
The article shows very little understanding of crime.
People of a Marxist bent tend to see the archetypal crime as the poor stealing from the rich. In other words, private action to accomplish what the Marxist seeks to accomplish by political action...
To a Marxist, wouldn't it be the other way around? That is, the archetypal crime would be the *rich* stealing from the *poor*?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
People of a Marxist bent tend to see the archetypal crime as the poor stealing from the rich. In other words, private action to accomplish what the Marxist seeks to accomplish by political action...
To a Marxist, wouldn't it be the other way around? That is, the archetypal crime would be the *rich* stealing from the *poor*?
Depends on whether you use "crime" to mean "morally wrong thing" or "lawbreaking activity that the criminal justice system deals with"...
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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