Ship of Fools: Giles Fraser on Father Jacques Hamel

Thread: Giles Fraser on Father Jacques Hamel Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I thought this might be of interest.

Loose canon: doing what priests do.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

The comments are troubling.

But Guardian comments are often not very Guardian.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

Guardian comments are not very Girardian.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Guardian comments are not very Girardian.

You could argue they exemplify Girard's anthropology perfectly.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Penny,

Do you have anything you want to discuss about this? There certainly are valuable things to discuss in it. Modern Christianity and sacrifice, perhaps, the relationship between pop culture and Christianity, modern martyrdom, etc. We need something to focus on though.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I wasn't quite sure about where to put it, or what to focus on, I admit. It's not Hellish.

Is there a better place?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

The place depends on what you want to discuss. Any of the topics I mentioned above for instance would belong in Purgatory.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I'm very uncomfortable critiquing the column given what other posters have already written, hence I'm struggling to see how there can be anything to discuss here.

Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :

In the meantime, Archbishop Welby is shaking hands, taking pics and tweeting his pleasure at welcoming Muhammad Naquib urRahman, an apologist for murder if ever there was one, in Lambeth palace. I feel sick. I think for the first time in my life I might write or launch a petition.

Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :

The sacrifice of the cross might be 'the non-violent absorption of human violence' but for those who believe in it to shake hands with those who praise the courage and publicly bemoan the judicial death of the murderer of the governor of Punjab and praise him as a martyr is not exactly reconciliation.

Posted by Doone (# 18470) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
The sacrifice of the cross might be 'the non-violent absorption of human violence' but for those who believe in it to shake hands with those who praise the courage and publicly bemoan the judicial death of the murderer of the governor of Punjab and praise him as a martyr is not exactly reconciliation.

Sadly I have to agree with you. It will be used as an endorsement of their views by many.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Problem with the Cross is that it can be used for anti-violence or pro-violence almost on the turn of a sixpence. Therefore, on many occasions throughout Christian History, it has alas become an implement assisting the vagaries of human attraction to violence not it's inhibitor.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Heck, the KKK uses the cross. [Projectile]

Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Heck, the KKK uses the cross.

I forgot, but the observation is apt.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I wish Giles Fraser would get his history right.

Joan of Arc was not "burned at the stake by the English as a heretic"; having been taken prisoner by Burgundian troops fighting with the English against the French, she was handed back to the Charles the Dauphin's men because she was a woman and the commander of the English-Burgundian forces - Henry V's brother John, Duke of Bedford - didn't believe in punishing women.

Joan was tried by an ecclesiastical court (in reality the inquisition) made up of French priests, and it was this court, after much tooing and froing, that gave her over to the church authorities to be burned for witchcraft and heresy.

Some of the priests who petitioned the pope in the 1450 to have Joan canonised were the same people who had sat on the tribunal that condemned her to die at the stake.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Joan was tried by an ecclesiastical court (in reality the inquisition) made up of French priests

And the Duke of Bedford and the Earl of Warwick just happened to fill in gaps in their schedules as disinterested observers of a thoroughly independent and authentically French court.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

So the French/Romans did the English/Jews' dirty work for them to appease them, for a quiet life?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Surely this is all to do with Charles de Foucould whose feast day it was - killed by a muslim - and twenty years ago to the day monks were killed by Algerians for celebrating it - a film was made about it called Of Gods & Men.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

L'organist. Your reading of history is absurdly biased. mdijon is right. This was VERY English dirty work.

I love this film treatment, nonsense as it is I'm sure. Dustin Hoffman's God is awesome. And as for Jovovich! Utter nonsense. And true.

I utterly repudiate the God the Killer I triumphed here for years. But this film is magnificent.

There is also a disturbingly brilliant portrayal of Saint Joan's murder in a film about Sarah Bernhardt. Buggered if I can track it down. AH! Glenda Jackson in The Incredible Sarah.

Great stories of a great story of an incredible girl of which God would approve as long as we don't blame Him for any of it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I've seen headlines that the man who killed the priest has been refused a Muslim burial. Within Islam, does that have an effect on what happens to him in the afterlife?

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So the French/Romans did the English/Jews' dirty work for them to appease them, for a quiet life?

In the former case the occupied did the occupiers' bidding. In the latter both groups worked together on behalf of us all.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Hmmmmm. Yes but not in any Iron Age sense of divine justice. Although Jesus obviously thought so.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Most of world history doesn't look like a sense of divine justice to me. Why should Jesus have got off lightly?

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

As an Iron Age man seeing Himself as the ultimate blood sacrifice in Bronze-Iron Age texts full of primitive myths of divine justice He couldn't.

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