Ship of Fools: Steve did the Job on tax avoidance didn't he?

Thread: Steve did the Job on tax avoidance didn't he? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Apple must pay €13 plus interest in tax avoidance.

What on earth is going on when each regular person and company has to pay their tax but megacorps don't? Immoral, wrong, and should be criminal.

We have the same problem in Canada with Cameco which engineered a scheme to sell minerals to a Swiss subsidiary at fire sale prices, which in turn sells them on the world market for the real price.

I don't own any Apple anything, and don't intend to. Do you own an Apple device? Is this at all okay with you? Are you going to get another Apple electro-thing? How do you justify that?

[ 01. September 2016, 20:54: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I know the Euro is doing well but I think it is more than 13 Euro. 13Bn.

Actually, I think it is a perfect example of things working well. There was a deal that seemed good for all, but the EU ["What have the EU ever done for us?"] have taken a look and said it is unfair. So they need to repay.

To my mind, that is what the EU is for. It should do more like this. I don't buy Apple products, but for different reasons. I doubt that most of the global manufacturers are any better.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Tim Cook: "Maddening". "Politically motivated". Personally outraged. Absolutely did nothing wrong. "No one did anything wrong here.". "Here is the truth. In that year [2014] we paid $400m to Ireland and that amount of money was based on the statutory Irish income tax rate of 12.5%.".

BBC: Apple says it paid $400m (€360m) in taxes in Ireland in 2014, the year when the European Commission says it paid an effective tax rate on its profits of 0.005%.

However, the question is whether Tim Cook is including different forms of taxation rather than just Irish corporate tax.

The European Commission's investigation - and the 0.005% figure - was focused on the tax paid on profits passing through two Irish subsidiaries. On the vast majority of these profits, the commission found, Apple paid no tax at all.

Instead, much of the profit was attributed to an offshore head office, which BBC Business Editor Simon Jack describes as the "tax equivalent of outer space".

Apple may have paid 12.5% on some profits going through its Irish businesses, but to suggest $400m is equivalent to 12.5% of all Apple's profits that passed through Ireland is far from the truth, the commission would claim.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Hopefully it will be the first of many around the world.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Common for governments to offer huge tax breaks (and environmental waivers) to large corporations to get them to move to their local and provide jobs, leaving the already local businesses to pay the tax cost of the increased infrastructure needed to provide for the migrant business, which has no loyalty to the location and will cheerfully move away when the negotiated tax break period ends.

Just part of one of the rules of western life (or all cultures?) - big boys get to ride on the backs of little guys.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Don't buy an Iphone until Apple pays its taxes

"You shouldn’t buy a new iPhone now because Apple could easily pay the tax judgment they owe, and they refuse to do so."

Or can anyone justify morally and ethically why it would be okay to buy one?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Don't buy an Iphone until Apple pays its taxes

"You shouldn’t buy a new iPhone now because Apple could easily pay the tax judgment they owe, and they refuse to do so."

Or can anyone justify morally and ethically why it would be okay to buy one?

If you care about ethics, chances are you have the wrong smartphone.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Ireland sets itself up as a tax haven and also cuts sweetheart deals with multinational mega-corporations, and Apple is the bad guy? If you're going to boycott everything made by a company taking advantage of shitty laws, you're going to have to make your own clothes from cloth you wove yourself from cotton you grew yourself, etc etc - you can pretty much just bow out of modern life, actually.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you're going to boycott everything made by a company taking advantage of shitty laws, you're going to have to make your own clothes from cloth you wove yourself from cotton you grew yourself, etc etc - you can pretty much just bow out of modern life, actually.

Not completely true. Yes, it is difficult, but not impossible. But the real work isn't finding what is ethical now, but demanding that the products we like become ethical. One reason most are not is that most consumers don't care enough.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Personally I have very little problem avoiding Apple. Never owned anything from them. Over-priced products. Locked into Apple's system. And they are greedy greedy bastards.

The "just business" apologetics, it's just a tax break, perfectly legal, and suggested reasonableness of capitalism being the best way and the right way contrasts very startlingly with the news this morning that 63% of Canadians live pay cheque to pay cheque, with no savings, no cushion, no nothing. I imagine there's a similar statistic for other countries. It's offensive this gap between struggling tax paying public and nontax paying megacorps. Immoral. Wrong.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you're going to boycott everything made by a company taking advantage of shitty laws, you're going to have to make your own clothes from cloth you wove yourself from cotton you grew yourself, etc etc - you can pretty much just bow out of modern life, actually.
Not completely true. Yes, it is difficult, but not impossible. But the real work isn't finding what is ethical now, but demanding that the products we like become ethical. One reason most are not is that most consumers don't care enough.

How much ethically sourced steel is on the market? How about rare earth elements that go into every cellphone and a whole bunch of other electronics? (Do you know what rare earth mining does to the environment?) Does all the furniture you use come from ethically sourced materials? What about the materials that go into the public infrastructure you use?

no prophet, I'm not apologizing for Apple. I'm saying they are hardly unique, and it's just as much the Irish government's fault as it is Apple's that Apple didn't pay much in taxes. It not as though Apple did something super sneaky that the Irish just figured out. Apple and Ireland did a deal out in the open, and the EU has decided they don't like it. Why they didn't object in the first place I don't understand.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Taxation is a state competence, not an EU competence. As I understand it, the EU has decided the Ireland/Apple deal is unlawful because it offends against competition law in that not all companies have the same deal.

That's where the controversy lies.

M.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
How much ethically sourced steel is on the market? How about rare earth elements that go into every cellphone and a whole bunch of other electronics? (Do you know what rare earth mining does to the environment?) Does all the furniture you use come from ethically sourced materials? What about the materials that go into the public infrastructure you use?

Most of it*, those are problematic (read the link I provided earlier), yes(also the other problems associated with them), as much as I can find, the vast majority (by weight, volume, etc. are by their nature. Rare metals in electronics face the same problems as any electronics.)
I make an effort to buy ethically sourced materials and I push for the government and business to do the same, though I will not claim to be perfect or complete about it.
However, that is irrelevant. Even if I did not, my comments would still be valid.

*with qualification. Open pit mining is harmful, but as far as the workers go, it is.

[ 09. September 2016, 05:34: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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