Ship of Fools: September Book Group

Thread: September Book Group - The Lie Tree Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

September's Book group choice is The Lie Tree by Frances Hardinge. Part historical novel, part horror story, it was published as a book for young adults, but it is very much a cross-over novel.
I'll post some questions on the 20th, but in the meantime I hope you'll give this book a whirl.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Ooh, this looks intriguing.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

And my library has it available as an e-book, so I'm in!!

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

I'm actually half way through this currently! I may drop in on the thread when I've finished and discussion starts.

I previously read Cuckoo Song and loved it, so looking forward to pressing on with this one!

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

I'm in as I picked this up from the library yesterday.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Finished it in two days, thoroughly loved it, can't wait to discuss it.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

Well it's the 20th so time to open the discussion. There is still time to read the book and join in, as it'll be open for a while.
Just a few questions to get the ball rolling, feel free to add more.

1. What did you think of the protagonist. Did you sympathise with Faith?
2. There are lots of big ideas in this book, the role of women, evolution and its relationship to faith, the nature of truth etc. Did you think there were too many things going on or did it add to the complexity of the story?
3. The writing, there were lots of passages that stood out for me. Do you have a favourite?

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

1. I really loved Faith, and thought that the author did an excellent job of what many authors do badly -- creating a 19th century girl who is smart, ambitious, and rebellious, and yet is believably locked into (and to some degree accepting of) the preconceptions her society has about women. She's not a twenty-first century girl in period costume -- she really has the feel of someone who has grown up in that culture and absorbed its prejudices even as she is trying to fight against them.

I found some of her physical exploits a little unbelievable. The boat-rowing didn't ring completely true to me, in particular.

2. I thought that all the "big ideas" the book grappled with were interconnected and handled well.

3. Although it's only been a few weeks since I read it, there's nothing that particularly stands out in my memory -- I recall the characters and the atmosphere more than any actual passages.

The thing that I loved most about this book was the way Faith's view of, and relationship with, her mother changes throughout the book. I thought it was very believable that in the beginning she identifies with her father, sees the world of men as more attractive and offering more options (which it certainly did at that time!) and dismisses her mother and many other female characters as insignificant. Throughout the novel she learns that women have ways of exercising power and authority even with the limited resources they're allowed, and I liked how this changed her view of the other women in the book, most importantly her mother.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

Still reading, about half way through.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

1. What did you think of the protagonist. Did you sympathise with Faith?

Yes, I liked Faith for her intelligence, clear sightedness and courage. Good to have an assertive girl righting wrongs.

2. There are lots of big ideas in this book, the role of women, evolution and its relationship to faith, the nature of truth etc. Did you think there were too many things going on or did it add to the complexity of the story?

All those ideas were artfully knitted together in the story.

3. The writing, there were lots of passages that stood out for me. Do you have a favourite?

That incredible plant, I think. What a remarkable invention. How Faith had the nerve to eat the fruit three times and undergo the consequences I don't know.

As Trudy says, it stretched credulity that Faith could row through the waves into that cave several times without coming a cropper.
There were rather too many reversals of character perspective towards the end I think.
Otherwise, I enjoyed this book; at times the writing was delightful.

Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :

Sorry for the delay in adding my twopennyworth, but I've been re-reading the book and still haven't quite finished.

I found this book puzzling, it had some of the best writing I've come across, the passage about the dead babies folding in on themselves like daisies and the bit at the end about Miss Hunter not being quite like other women were great. I also like the way she captured 'Victorian' language in speech and in Faith's father's journals without sounding stilted. On the other hand I felt like I was being bashed over the head with the concepts she was trying to get across, the role of women in society, the impact of On the Origin of Species, Victorian attitudes to death etc etc.
As for the story, in some ways I think it would have worked better if she'd gone for a straight thriller, it would have cut out the unbelievable rowing into the cave bits for a start. On the other hand this might be because I'm phobic about some plants, specially creeping ones, so an evil 'lie tree' as the book's McGuffin was always going to make me feel uncomfortable.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

I didn't mind the stuff about rowing to the cave — yes, it was a tiny bit jarring at first, but I decided to suspend disbelief and just went with it.

I read this after having just read Cuckoo Song by the same author. They both had some commentary on social values of the time, and in both books it was really well woven into the story. I think I might have found it jarring if there had been a few aside comments but it hadn't been integral to the story, but as it was, it was nicely woven in. I really liked both books, but Cuckoo Song was my favourite of the two.

I must admit, I thought things were being set up for Faith to take a fall due to manipulating public opinion like that. I expected something like, one of the villagers she 'sacrificed' in order to learn the truth from the tree would have something terrible happen to them, and she'd have to struggle with coming clean (and the associated costs), or letting the guilt eat at her. It sort of happened with the servant girl, but not as strongly as I expected. I did like how things were nicely morally ambiguous though, and Faith, unlike some heroines, acted in her own best interests and was sympathetic for it.

Posted by Marama (# 330) on :

I don't usually read YA fiction, but I enjoyed this (though I s=agree the boat trips were a bit unbelievable

1. What did you think of the protagonist. Did you sympathise with Faith?

I found her convincing and sympathetic. As Trudy Scrumptious says, she is a 19th century girl, with the attitudes of the time – if at the rebellious end of them. She retains her sense of responsibility throughout even when she decides the objects of her concern have to change. She faces moral dilemmas which she settles with increasing pragmatism – but you never feel she’s completely lost her moral compass. Her aspirations are not completely atypical of her time. The book is set in 1868 (we’re told 'The Origin of Species' was published when Faith was 5); Girton College (1st women college at Cambridge) opened its doors in 1869 – and I kept hoping she’d get there!

2. There are lots of big ideas in this book, the role of women, evolution and its relationship to faith, the nature of truth etc. Did you think there were too many things going on or did it add to the complexity of the story?

These ideas were deeply interrelated in the 1860s, so it is entirely convincing that they are in the book. I’ve looked at some of these debates in some detail – I thought they were handled very well for young (and adult) readers. But I guess that someone new to the period and its issues might feel a bit overwhelmed, though I did feel the reader was not preached at.

3. The writing, there were lots of passages that stood out for me. Do you have a favourite?

I particularly enjoyed chapter 5 – where the Sunderly family visit the Lamberts for afternoon tea, and Faith is allowed to joint the adults. The distinction between acceptable male and female behaviours, topics of conversation and interest are made starkly clear to us – and to Faith. She makes the dreadful mistake of appearing inappropriately knowledgeable, and has to rapidly backtrack. And the chapter contains the wonderful description of her parents – ‘the adulation slid off the Reverend’s stony reticence and was soaked up by the lace handkerchief of Myrtle’s busy charm’. Takes some beating!

The Chinese tree is clearly fantastic, yet these were the years when sll sorts of specimens were being brought to Europe, and some of them were initially seen as incredible and possibly a hoax. The platypus is a good example. So what was and was not credible was rather fluid.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

I have just pre-ordered this on Kindle, due November 8th. I have trouble with receiving posted items so Kindle works well. It sounded good, so hopefully I will enjoy it, even if too far behind to have it as book club.

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