quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
One time on Facebook I went on this rant about how women should start an Ugly movement-- just take the power of that word away. Because that's what it is about-- power. If women are to be judged on their physical appearance, and 99% of women don't fit what the hive mind has decided is The Ideal Woman, that is a substantial chunk of the population you get to discount.

I think many politicians are starting to realize that just because you have been ignoring someone doesn't mean they aren't voting.

So, the Ugly movement means, if I am ugly, so be it. There are far more ugly people than perfect people. Disproportionately more. So fucking consider my ugly ass going to a voting booth.

The guy I was ranting to said, "But Kelly, you're not ugly at all!"

Can no one see my vision?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can see it, and I'll gladly join you on the barricades.

I've already decided I'm just going to refer to myself as "fat" and screw the people who don't like it. I AM fat. And for someone to get startled and say, "But LC, you aren't..." and then trail off into silence... well,

Maybe if we all own the ugly words long and loud enough, the jackasses will quit braying.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You may have seen this, over on the Guardian: a call for fat people to unite against denigrators like Trump.

And Samantha Bee says, “No, you had a stunningly beautiful Miss Universe winner and you treated her like garbage. Now you have a real problem – not only with her but with every woman who’s ever been called fat. Which is all of us!”

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Can no one see my vision?

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I do. That's why I hate all that "everyone is beautiful" "find your inner beauty" "your uniqueness is your beauty" shit. The majority of humans are not (considered) beautiful, and unless one happens to find oneself competing in a beauty pageant, it shouldn't fucking matter to anybody at all.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
This is why we need more fairy tales about ordinary-looking people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Well, I'm doing my part. The heroine of the current work is not young and famously ugly to boot.

---

THANK you!


Join the revolution! Reject the lie that says average is ugly and ugly is invisible! Own your ugly and make your ugly voice heard!

(Oh and by the way, to be truly revolutionary, you need to use the long U. It's not good enough to be ugly, you have to be OOOOOOOOOGLAAAY.)

Say it lovingly in the mirror to yourself tonight... "I'm here, I'm OOOOOGLAAY, and I'm NOT GONNA GO AWAY!"




[ 30. September 2016, 22:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I win. I'm old and fat and a feminist. Eat my dust.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Our Queen! Our Queen!
 

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Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
Should the thread title be "U! G! L! Y! I dont need no alibi!" or is it intended for dyslexics as well?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
Should the thread title be "U! G! L! Y! I dont need no alibi!" or is it intended for dyslexics as well?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
Should the thread title be "U! G! L! Y! I dont need no alibi!" or is it intended for dyslexics as well?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Only if you let the girls fart, too.

Heck, let's compete!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Only if you let the girls fart, too.

Heck, let's compete!

---

When someone farts, their sex is the last thing on my mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Anyway. My new ID revealed that, all unknowingly, I have reached a new level of OOOOGLY beyond my wildest dreams. Stand aside Firenze.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
A number of years ago Erma Bombeck wrote When You Look Like Your Passport Photo, It's Time to Go Home. The one I had done last year was so bad I had a new one taken.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Well, I'm doing my part. The heroine of the current work is not young and famously ugly to boot.

---

THANK you!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lots of Yay:
I'm currently planning a trip to Japan and apparently I have to learn a Japanese phrase to the effect of "the water is very carbonated today" for use if farting should occur in the communal baths.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lots of Yay:
I'm currently planning a trip to Japan and apparently I have to learn a Japanese phrase to the effect of "the water is very carbonated today" for use if farting should occur in the communal baths.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Till We Have Faces is grossly underrated and unfairly overlooked. And Lewis' best book by a league.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The French have a term, jolie-laide, which essentially means an ugly but attractive woman.

---

Yes, I met one once who had a face like the back of a bus and a good line in vocal fry, but she only had to walk into a room and men instantly started drooling over her. I could see why, though I still don't know how she did it: she was somehow effortlessly sexy. Body language, I guess.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I love that word.

While we are praising the plain women of Literature, can we give a shout out to Meg from "A Wrinkle in Time"?
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Not great literature by any means, but a book I used to love years ago was a novel called The Boyfriend School by Sarah Bird, whose heroine was a self-admittedly not very attractive woman who bemoaned not only being not pretty but having the horrible-sounding name of Gretchen Griner. Of course when this quite funny novel was made into a terrible, terrible movie, not only was she played by the quite conventionally attractive Jami Gertz, the character's name was changed to Emily Pear, and there was even a scene inserted with her love interest musing on what a beautiful name she had. Geez.

It's one thing to write a book with a plain-looking heroine, but what are the odds you'd be able to get a movie made? Are plain woman even allowed in Hollywood?

I've long said that if I became improbably famous enough to need a movie of my life I'd want to be played by Allison Janney, who was once told by an agent that she was tall and so ugly she could only play aliens or lesbians. (Or presumably lesbian aliens?). But in fact she is quite strikingly attractive, with great bones. Genuinely unattractive women don't make it far in the film industry, I don't think.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Allison Janey is another handsome woman. And she has the speaking voice of a harald angel.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Tiffany Aching of The Wee Free Men by Pratchett early on decided if she couldn't be fairy tale princess material (being brown haired and plain), she could and would be a witch. And also a very good cheese maker. In a later story she discovered that looks-as-destiny could cut both ways, and that the beautiful, blond daughter of a duke was finding it hard to recognize herself as the witch that she really was.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
One of the things that has happened over the past century or so is that women are writing more of the books. This inevitably moves us away from the fairy-tale heroine and over to real women. I am in hopes that the ageing of the author population will get us works like those of Linda Nagata and Lois Bujold, about older women who still can be the center of their stories.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Jane Eyre was there first of course. Small, plain, socially obscure but morally and intellectually pure fire and steel.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
And some of the film adaptations have even managed to portray her, if not as plain, asat least as someone a bit different and not ravishing.

(Another uuuuuuuuugly, middle aged woman checking in, with so many scars that Frankenstein's monster gets jealous.)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Embrace our sister, ugly folk!


 

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Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
I am, at best, mousy and plain. And I'm fat. And I have frizzy, unmanageable hair going grey. And I'm 54. *sigh* I have come to accept my general unattractiveness. Preach it, sisters!
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
The novels I am currently writing center around a famously ugly woman. They begin when she is 30, and end when she is 60. Not only have I evaded all the teenaged-blonde-beauty cliches, I do believe I have completely managed the inherent sexism of the culture. The trick is to split off what she does from what she, and everybody else, says. So she pulls out the gun and shoots the villain. Then she declares, "Women can't do this sort of thing, we are too weak and frail." Everyone else nods and agrees, and she puts away her gun.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
The heroine of the story I have been writing was originally named Maggie, but it didn't fit her neurotic, insecure persona. Maggies are adorable, Maggies are popular, a Maggie might have a few flaws, but they are endearing and forgivable.

So I dropped the "M" and decided she was Aggie. As in Agnes. I wanted a name that was somewhat of an albatross.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Maggie sure isn't adorable for some of us in the UK.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Well, yeah.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Athrawes:
And some of the film adaptations have even managed to portray her, if not as plain, asat least as someone a bit different and not ravishing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
Maggie sure isn't adorable for some of us in the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Talking of ho-hum names, can you imagine any whirligig of fashion that will ever bring back Mildred? Muriel? Agatha? Bertha? Deirdre? Edith? Ivy? Nesta? Shirley? Tracy? Ursula?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Talking of ho-hum names, can you imagine any whirligig of fashion that will ever bring back Mildred? Muriel? Agatha? Bertha? Deirdre? Edith? Ivy? Nesta? Shirley? Tracy? Ursula?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Every woman you meet who is named Madison . . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I am, at best, mousy and plain. And I'm fat. And I have frizzy, unmanageable hair going grey. And I'm 54. *sigh* I have come to accept my general unattractiveness. Preach it, sisters!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
. . .I knew that Matthew was one of the most popular baby names of that period, and the poor kid would have a number or initial appended to distinguish him from the five other Matthews in his class.

---

When I was born, that name was Kevin. My parents almost named me Kevin.

Instead I got my given name, which is rare enough that I've never met another. I don't think my mother ever completely stopped worrying about that choice; she used to ask me every now and again if I really liked my name. (I do.)
 

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Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
Aw Twilight, that's the nicest thing anyone has said about me in ages!
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sabine:
Had no one thought of Elvis??

---

Seeing as this is sort of a churchy site, how about Sinbad? Sinbadia if it's a girl.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Is thread about ugly-shaming or baby-naming?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Neither.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Coulda fooled me.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I'm getting the feeling that you haven't read the OP.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I'm getting the feeling you haven't read any of the posts on this page.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
A small tangent evolved as a result of people drifting from " reclaiming the ugly" to
"What is an ugly (ish) name". I'm sure the Hosts will step in if they feel the need.

I n any case, this was meant to be fun, and if you don't find it so, why not find something that suits you? Life is too short to bother with lame threads you don't like.

Or even OOOOGLAY threads.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
He just wants to be in the ooooggglyyy incrowd.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Too pretty. Much too pretty.
 

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Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
Chop his tail off.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
… and the past few posts have been decidedly un-pretty. Please remember this is Heaven, and if you really want to get ugly, Hell is that way. Thank you.

Ariel (Heaven Host)

[ 05. October 2016, 07:09: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Yes, miss. Sorry about that.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
(squeal of tires and the smell of burnt rubber, as topic is wrenched violently back onto the main highway)

Here is a free Guardian article about why the ugly and the fat may be politically important this year.
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I have long thought that ugly, fat, and other nasty evaluations of people disappear very quickly when the person is happy and shares their joy.

I spoke to one of in-laws recently who went off to a 40 year highschool graduation reunion (I avoid these things myself). The observations were that all the really popular and hunky jock-men were now fat and bald, married to ugly women with bad teeth. And that the women who were popular and "babes" were the ugly women with bad teeth. That all of the quiet, slightly awkward nerdy types were all doing great and looked great. Their inner beauty had shone through the sidelining of 4 decades ago. Which all made me think that there is a God who rewards those who wait.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I spoke to one of in-laws recently who went off to a 40 year highschool graduation reunion (I avoid these things myself). The observations were that all the really popular and hunky jock-men were now fat and bald, married to ugly women with bad teeth. And that the women who were popular and "babes" were the ugly women with bad teeth. That all of the quiet, slightly awkward nerdy types were all doing great and looked great.

---

That was my observation exactly at my 50th high school reunion.
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Hmmm. How about fat - albeit with passable teeth - and sort of semi radiant?

But I think I would avoid any such reunion, were such to come my way. In fact, the only one I've ever been to was a half dozen of us 10 years post postgrad. At that point in my life I had hair hennaed orange - not red, orange. And I practically lived in a pink boiler suit. So I don't think I was going for conventionally pretty at that point.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
There is a saying that when you're twenty, you have the face nature gave you. When you're forty, you have the face you gave yourself.

Moo
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
The problem with that idea is, it bolsters the attitudes of people who evaluate people's worth by their physical appearance. If you decide that the way a person looks is an indication of their spiritual state or their karma, that gives more power to the people who want to be the definers of attractiveness.

So like I said, " But you are not ugly!" Is the wrong answer in this situation. As per the article Brenda posted, the answer is, if someone excludes most people from the definition of beauty, they will find themselves outnumbered by the ugly folk. And if the ugly folk decide they like it that way, the excluder is in trouble.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
We have some stellar examples, just recently, of people who judge others by the most shallow and superficial of criteria. Donald Trump is giving sexists, weightists and ageists a bad name.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Oh, this is egregious. The guidelines for the church worship team urge you not to be fat.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I'm glad he mentioned shoes with white soles twice because, man, no Christian should ever wear shoes with white soles.


The line where we're told that "people look up to the music ministers," and they need to remember that they aren't just representing Christ but Pastor" says it all. We know who is being worshipped in that church.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I like the comment BTL about having rules for God to manifest in that church.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
no Christian should ever wear shoes with white soles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
Maggie sure isn't adorable for some of us in the UK.

---

I blame George Elliot in Mill on the Floss for that.

Jengie

---

Oh, high five! The only book I have ever thrown across the room upon finishing!

(Posted by a woman not overweight, but ridiculously hirsute, still dealing with acne at 40, and possessed of a serious case of bitchy resting face and a nose that looks acceptable from precisely zero angles. Can I join?)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I love you.
(collects self) That would be a yes.

[ 07. October 2016, 03:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
When I look around me at the people I see outside of work, they are all older and by definition physically imperfect. But who cares? They are all wonderful in so many ways.

You want an imperishable babe, chaps? Get a blow-up doll.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Yeah, but even then there are always sharp, pointy objects around the house.

One time an idiot young woman came up to me on a beach and told me I looked like a beached whale. Yes, she actually said it. Believe it or not she really thought she'd be encouraging me to lose weight by saying that because then she spoke of the fifty pounds that she had lost. Dare I mention that she was still a pretty chubby mess herself by media standards?

Moments like that are when I wish Americans were more like Brits in the reserved temperament department.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I trust that you had a super=sized iced drink in your hand, to fling onto her.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
"Look who's calling the kettle black. You're still a pretty chubby mess yourself!" would have had the same effect as a tossed chilled drink, although the latter would have been quicker.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

Moments like that are when I wish Americans were more like Brits in the reserved temperament department.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Not great literature by any means, but a book I used to love years ago was a novel called The Boyfriend School by Sarah Bird, whose heroine was a self-admittedly not very attractive woman who bemoaned not only being not pretty but having the horrible-sounding name of Gretchen Griner. Of course when this quite funny novel was made into a terrible, terrible movie, not only was she played by the quite conventionally attractive Jami Gertz, the character's name was changed to Emily Pear, and there was even a scene inserted with her love interest musing on what a beautiful name she had. Geez.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
There is a saying that when you're twenty, you have the face nature gave you. When you're forty, you have the face you gave yourself.

Moo

---

And the wrinkles settle into the pattern of a person's most frequent expression. In the case of an aunt of mine, who was probably the least slim member of our family, they were "laughter lines". Not surprisingly, she was both very loving and much loved.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I think the bit about faces works if we're just thinking about habitual expressions and not, say, how fat one is (looks at self) or whatever random accidents of birth and time have happened (scars, odd nose, etc.). And IMHO the expression thing counts for more and more as the years go by and we all come to look more and more alike.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I don't really believe "the face we deserve," saying much anymore. I look around my book club of people in their 70's and see us all, even our most cheerful members, looking very grumpy when our faces are in repose. Gravity and jowls have pulled the corners of our mouths down, our noses and ears have enlarged a bit, particularly in the men. We have frown lines and squint lines just from trying to see. The heavier ones are more jowly, but the thinner ones have more wrinkles. Hair is extremely unfair, some us still have very thick hair while others are almost bald. If this were Hell I would have some special words for aging.
 

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Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :
 
Rejoice ugly ones it appears according to Trump it would keep him from assaulting you.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
[serious note] Actually, no it won't, it will just give him a cruel way to deny he did it later.

I've actually met a few guys in my life who seem to home in on the plainer, usually zaftig women at ( say) a bar, and after a lot of observation and a few unfortunate close encounters, my conclusion is that the kind of guy I am describing chooses these women so that he can basically do whatever the hell he wants with/ to her, and if she resists or reports, he can fall back on, "You really believe I would persue HER?"

"Obviously she's obsessed with me."

Also from unhappy experience, I can relate that both men and women seem quite happy to leave the matter right there, when told this.

Back to my OP: the Ugly Movement isn't just about rejecting the idea of one version of beauty, it is about recognizing how people attach a woman's value to how many people she pleases ( visually or otherwise) rather than her character, or how people manufacture character assesments based on a single glance in order to gather justifications for denying them a voice. And if there is this tiny little window of pretty, no average, and a whole lot of ugly, that is a whole lot of voices that are shut up.

I'd rather be loud and ugly then have to jump through pretty hoops to prove my worth.

So, Twilight? Right there with you, in your post. It's not about begging people to see the beauty in old age, it's about " I still have a lot to contribute even when I have liver spots. Or cellulite. Or crow's feet."

And I don't want to leave the pretty people out of the dialogue, either-- they have to deal with people expecting them to stick with the pretty. Don't think too hard, girls, it will give you forehead lines. Start getting Botox at 22, you can't take chances.

Case in point-- Julia Roberts and Nichole Kidman. Both women were blown off as terrible actresses in their youth. Now they both basically kick all kinds of ass whenever they cross a screen. Some of that can be attributed to them growing their craft, but I was watching an older Kidman movie the other day, and it hit me-- she was always in close up, she was always exquisitely lit. Every millimeter of her face was accounted for in the frame. So, while everyone was trashing her for being wooden, her directors were probably telling her to keep her face really stil so they could get that perfect shot.

You can't be a great actor if your face has to be perfect all the time. Your face is what you act with.

[/end serious note, unless folk think this will do ok in Purgatory]

[ 16. October 2016, 00:48: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

And I don't want to leave the pretty people out of the dialogue, either-- they have to deal with people expecting them to stick with the pretty. Don't think too hard, girls, it will give you forehead lines. Start getting Botox at 22, you can't take chances.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I saw Cindy Crawford making an address to a women's conference. She spoke of the time (having graduated valedictorian) she went into a calculus course she'd signed up for as a chemical engineering major, and the prof looked up and told her, "Honey, I think you have the wrong class.”

---

To which the perfect rejoinder would have been, "No, sweetie, you've got the wrong bimbo!"
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 

 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
People who are good at spotting such things will notice that I have very neat, barely visible, scars which start at my earlobes, run up in front of my ears, then go backwards into my hairline. Yup, facelift scars! I haven't had a facelift, though, but got my scars as a result of bilateral TMJ arthroplasty.

I look as though I've had a facelift, but it didn't work.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I'm a senior now, and while some people say I don't look my age, I think I do. I claim the early-onset white hair (truly, all the women in my family go gray or white in their 20s or 30s), and really, once I stopped coloring it my high school red, I felt perkier and younger. I claim the wrinkles, the so-called crepe skin (and will never buy all the products for crepe skin that I've seen advertised).

But still, sometimes when I'm connected with a vision of my younger self, an event happens.

The other day, I found a standing lamp at a yard sale across the street from my place. It had a lovely, thick piece of glass around the middle, perfect for a coffee cup or phone or whatever. The woman who sold it to me said she would carry it across the street for me because "you won't be able to lift it."

I told her with a smile (and a bit of inner chagrin) that I had just come from the gym, and then I attempted to lift it.

Snap! She was right. I couldn't lift it.

sabine

[ 17. October 2016, 14:48: Message edited by: sabine ]
 

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