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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The ideal C of E clergyman
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Here is a poem by Fr S J Forrest which I rather like.
Ecce Sacerdos Magnus
(Behold the High Priest)
Christopher C is a jolly good sort!
He revels in every conceivable sport,
He governs a School with the highest of aims
To teach English boys to be “Manly at Games”;
And feels (when his finer emotions are warm)
That he might get ordained “as a matter of form”.
[rest removed for copyright reasons.]
Ariel, Heaven Host
S J Forrest in What’s the Use? 1955
[ 23. November 2016, 16:38: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Thank you for sharing this- it's spot on, as Fr Forrest always was. Would be good to have a selection of his stuff back in print.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Thank you for sharing this- it's spot on, as Fr Forrest always was. Would be good to have a selection of his stuff back in print.
I'd rather have someone in the middle - neither Dean Arabin nor the Rev Crawley. The Rev Crawley was a holy man, but his friend the Dean was more fun at parties and still did his duty.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Thank you, venbede. Are you able to provide a link to this, to avoid copyright problems?
I couldn't find one online myself, which suggests that this isn't public domain, and is probably still copyright of the author or his estate.
Please as always, can I remind shipmates to avoid posting entire poems, and to provide a link where possible?
Thank you
Ariel
Heaven Host
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I typed it out from a second hand book. Please include the second stanza or it looses the point. I've got most of Fr Forrest's poems through Abebooks.
Incidentally, his ideal priest is not necessarily Catholic, just humble, dedicated and pastoral.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
To paraphrase the poem:
It is in six stanzas contrasting two Anglican priests in alternate stanzas. Christopher C is described in the quoted stanza and two further stanzas go on to chart his preferment to be a potential bishop (if he pulls the right strings).
The intermediate three stanzas are identical and describe the “diligent priest” Jeremy J, who “comforts the anxious and visits the sick” and “all the year long in his parish he stays, and he prays and he prays and he prays and he prays.”
I find the third repetition of that stanza rather moving.
I’ve just read The Last Chronicle of Barset and disagree that Jeremy J is Josiah Crawley who is far too lacking in genuine humility.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, it's rather a moving poem which makes a very serious point.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My late Papa was a friend of SJF and he often came to the house when I was growing up, as did his brother who used to do wicked sketches.
As for the ideal clergyman? Perhaps Forrest's work that sums up that best is the short second stanza of a poem with the refrain By instinct, or possibly by radar.
I inherited the published poems from the parent, but siblings have found their own copies in secondhand bookshops.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
It seems as though Fr Forrest was on the right track, and perhaps even following in the steps of the Blessed Percy Dearmer!
What a contrast to our Own Place's Fr F***wit, who thinks that simply adding a name to the prayer list (not a bad thing in itself, of course) is an acceptable substitute for actually contacting or visiting the anxious, sick, etc. etc. of the parish... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I know the type well: "I don't just visit people, I wait for them to ask for a visit. I wouldn't feel comfortable intruding on them when they're not well or have suffered a bereavement, it isn't my place"
Not our PP, thank God, but the man who failed to visit or make a 'phone call when his churchwarden suddenly died, insisted that there was only one day for members of a scattered family to meet him to discuss the funeral, insisted it had to be face-to-face in the vicarage between 9 and 10.30 on a Wednesday, - unbelievable. Of course, he is now a residentiary canon and lauded by his diocesan for his pastoral skills. You couldn't make it up.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
I wonder if Betjeman hit the nail on the head in searching for the "ideal CofE clergyman".
Here
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Geoffrey Chaucer had it right, too, in his description of a Parson in The Canterbury Tales. From Google:
'The Parson - The only devout churchman in the company, the Parson lives in poverty, but is rich in holy thoughts and deeds. The pastor of a sizable town, he preaches the Gospel and makes sure to practice what he preaches. He is everything that the Monk, the Friar, and the Pardoner are not.'
Google 'Chaucer Canterbury Tales Parson' for the complete description in Middle or Modern English. It's quite long, so I won't vex our Hosts by quoting it in full here.
John Myrc or Mirk, a little later (c.1400), wrote Instructions for Parish Priests , a book which is surely still applicable in many ways to today's clergy.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If anyone is still looking for evidence of SJF then try this: http://www.saintjohnswatford.org.uk/our_church_poem.php
The only thing I've ever had against this church is that it is the coldest I've ever encountered, the temperature at the organ one chilly Sunday morning when I was depping being a balmy 41F ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The only thing I've ever had against this church is that it is the coldest I've ever encountered, the temperature at the organ one chilly Sunday morning when I was depping being a balmy 41F
My somewhat naive assumption would be that this would pose challenges for keeping the organ in some approximation of tune.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
My somewhat naive assumption would be that this would pose challenges for keeping the organ in some approximation of tune.
I think there might also be a problem keeping the organist's fingers flexible enough to play.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
My somewhat naive assumption would be that this would pose challenges for keeping the organ in some approximation of tune.
I think there might also be a problem keeping the organist's fingers flexible enough to play.
Moo
Hmmm. Memories are stirring - Midnight Mass at Offchurch, 1994 (?) Somehow my fingers didn't fall off - I'm confident that the temperature was only marginally above freezing.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
Would the ideal clergyperson provide the organist with a hot water bottle and fingerless gloves?
Our local people have been ardent visitors and have also been available for us to visit.
Cattyish, grateful.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
It seems to me that the perfect priest will preach well, but not for too long (if you haven't struck oil after 10 minutes, cease boring)*, be able to make a reasonable fist of singing the Office and appreciate his choir and organist.
Not that I'm biased in any way, of course ... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
* A late Dean of our acquaintance didn't like the sermon to go on for more than 10 minutes; if any of the visiting Chapter canons exceeded the limit, they weren't invited back. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Memories are stirring - Midnight Mass at Offchurch, 1994 (?) Somehow my fingers didn't fall off - I'm confident that the temperature was only marginally above freezing.
Worship the Sunday after Christmas at Erpingham, Norfolk. Snow on the ground. 1000 years of cold inside the church, not allayed by a one-bar electric fire switched on 10 minutes before the service. And Communion served by a retired Vicar wearing greengrocers' fingerless gloves.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Leorning Cniht quote:
My somewhat naive assumption would be that this would pose challenges for keeping the organ in some approximation of tune.
Not so apparently. The church never got really warm, and any changes of temperature were a gradual slide - not being equipped with a heating system (!) there was no chance of a sudden blast of heat affecting the instrument, plus it was far enough from all doors and windows for the humidity to be stable.
The plus side was that the church was built with loos ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
IME Fingerless gloves are hopeless, its just a case of trying to keep the hands warm then whipping off the gloves just before you need to play the next bit.
I agree with you on sermon length Piglet: again, I'be rarely heard a high-and-spikey preach for more than 10 minutes but lower down the candle length seems de rigeur. An organist chum once endured 47 minutes on a freezing cold Sunday morning in February on the subject of hellfire - as he opined, chance would have been a fine thing.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
In my early days, I was taught that an eleven-minute sermon is one minute too long; a twelve-minute sermon is twelve minutes too long!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The church never got really warm, and any changes of temperature were a gradual slide - not being equipped with a heating system (!) there was no chance of a sudden blast of heat affecting the instrument, plus it was far enough from all doors and windows for the humidity to be stable.
The plus side was that the church was built with loos
Frozen loos? Brrrrrrrrrrrrr.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
An organist chum once endured 47 minutes on a freezing cold Sunday morning in February on the subject of hellfire - as he opined, chance would have been a fine thing.
There is a story of a Vicar who - allegedly - was seen coming out of his Vestry where a fire was blazing in the hearth, into a freezing cold church, and then preaching on Isaiah's denunciation of idol-worship (Isaiah 44 - a great story, by the way). His text, not to the delight of his chilly parishioners, was,"I have seen the fire, I am warm".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Not an Ideal C of E Clergyman, then. One hopes at least for a certain amount of empathy with the needs of the people of the parish!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I agree with you on sermon length Piglet: again, I'be rarely heard a high-and-spikey preach for more than 10 minutes but lower down the candle length seems de rigeur. An organist chum once endured 47 minutes on a freezing cold Sunday morning in February on the subject of hellfire - as he opined, chance would have been a fine thing.
I used to think short sermons were a sign of modern laxity, until I came across the Rule of St Francis:
quote:
I also admonish and exhort the brothers that in their preaching their words be studied and chaste, useful and edifying to the people, telling them about vices and virtues, punishment and glory; and they ought to be brief, because the Lord kept his words brief when he was on earth.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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