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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Extinct Sect love
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
Well officially of course they united with the Wesleyans in the 1930s. I'm sure there are some surviving dissenting dissenters but I'm not sure I'd include them - any more than I regard the Liberal Party and the SDP as anything other than dead in practical terms despite the fact that technically both still exist!
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
They are alive if not necessarily well in the U.S.. They are mostly found in central Pennslyvania where most of the Welsh immigrants to this country ended up.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Primitive Methodists are quite interesting - they were a very big movement around here in South Wales. I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
As you probably know, several of the British Methodists groups merged in the 1930s because they were losing members and also their theological and social distinctiveness. So ISTM that if any congregations deliberately remained outside the union (and survived) they were already so different from the norm that it might not be meaningful to see them as somehow representative of that earlier denomination.
The extent to which they might be seen as remnants on one hand or schismatics on the other probably depends on various factors. Nowadays, I'd guess that any independent congregation with distant Prim Meth (etc.) heritage is affiliated with an evangelical network, and chooses to emphasise its modernity rather than its history. 'Primitive Methodist' won't mean much in a contemporary setting, so a church is unlikely to emphasise it on its website, and it won't be present in the name of the church.
I'm thinking more of England though, not Wales or the USA.
[ 28. February 2017, 15:47: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Well, it is certainly amazing what one canlearn on this forum!!
[ 28. February 2017, 16:03: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The followers of Joanna Southcott, and their later appearance as 'The New And Latter House Of Israel', founded by James Jershom Jezreel.
They flourished briefly in this area, and I have a couple of publications of theirs(including 'Extracts from The Flying Roll'), which, TBH, are almost unreadable.
IJ
In their time, they managed to erect a distinctly odd building (temple) "Jezreel's Tower" which survived incomplete until the mid 20th century.
There's a wikipedia page on this odd lot which is well worth a look, for lovers of obscure cults. Modestly entertaining too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel's_tower
When I were a lad, I had to walk to school past a small terraced house which served as the meeting place of some small sect. According to the oversized notice board screwed on the front wall of the property, they called themselves "God's Peculiar People". I have no idea what they were about, and search engines don't seem to turn up anything of relevance.
[ 28. February 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Diomedes
Shipmate
# 13482
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Posted
Honest Ron - I live in Prittlewell (Essex UK) where the Peculiar People had a presence worthy of the first hit on Google! Our erstwhile neighbours were members so they hadn't all died out 10 years ago. I'm not sure if their chapel is still in use, it's looking a bit unloved recently
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Distrust simple answers to complicated questions
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The 'Peculiar People' still exist, but under another name....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People
They seem to have got themselves into trouble with the law at various times in the past by refusing medical help to their sick children (Davies mentions the case of Brother Hurry, in prison at the time of his visit to Plumstead), but otherwise appear to have been (and presumably still are) decent and godly people.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The colleague who was a Peculiar said that, when he was a child, he had a pain in the appendix area.
His parents wouldn't call a Doctor, but called the church Elders. They turned up, all clad in black - he was terrified. But they prayed - and he was fine after that!!!
That would have been about 60 years ago. But I only heard the story today.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Diomedes and Bishop's Finger - many thanks! You have filled a longstanding gap in my knowledge. I hadn't realised how local the Peculiar People were. As I think BF will know, my knowledge of all this relates to a childhood in N. Kent, though of course that is only just across the river from Essex.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I used to know someone who grew up in the PPs, and was very grateful as soon as he was old enough to be able to switch to the boring old Baptists.
David Bebbington, in IVP's A History Of Evangelicalism series, cites the Cokelers, or Society of Dependants, who believed in celibacy (hence their disappearance) and economic solidarity.
One of their hymns ran:
Christ's combination stores for me
Where I can be so well supplied
Where I can one with brethren be
Where competition is defied.
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
I have a little bit of nostalgia for the Church of Jesus Christ at Armageddon, an old hippie sect that was based here in Seattle. They were more commonly known as the Love Family after their leader, who called himself Love Israel. All the members took the surname Israel and first names that were sometimes Biblical names but often expressed their personality or a virtue (Determination Israel, Logic Israel, Charity Israel, etc.). They were active when I was in college in the late 70s/early 80s and their commune was near our campus. A driver on the 13 bus route was in the habit of announcing the churches along his route; maybe this was his form of evangelism. When he'd get to the street they were at he'd announce, "McGraw Street--Church of Armageddon!"
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
first names that were sometimes Biblical names but often expressed their personality or a virtue (Determination Israel, Logic Israel, Charity Israel, etc.).
They sound like Puritan first names such as Praise God, Kill Sin and Flee Fornication.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And of course Macaulay's Obadiah-Bind-Their-Kings-In-Chains-And-Their-Nobles-With-Links-Of-Iron, Sergeant in Ireton’s Regiment
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I think I mentioned earlier the followers of Joanna Southcott, and their successors 'The New and Latter House of Israel'. I now find that Joanna Southcott's famous 'Box' gave rise to what became 'The Panacea Society', at a slightly later period, but that this ceased to be a religious body in 2012. Here we are:
http://panaceatrust.org/history-of-the-panacea-society/
Their museum would seem to be a good reason for visiting Bedford!
In a similar way, I believe the Catholic Apostolic Church still exists in the form of Trustees, but not as a worshipping body. The Trustees, however, continue to maintain some of the Church's surviving buildings (Gordon Square, Albury, and - I hope - Maida Vale).
IJ
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What a resource you are, BF. The Panacea Society, I am thrilled. Distributing squares of linen as cures, really! Any time I think I am imaginative, I am put to the blush by plain reality.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Spending over a year being ill, having surgery, and then slowly recovering leaves me with lots of time on my hands!
But I've always been fascinated by the sheer variety of expressions of Christian (or sub-Christian) faith, and have gained pleasure and knowledge from recent studies.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I know a woman who grew up in a church which no longer exists called The Free Breakfast Mission.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
That's an interesting one.
I picture a small, modest, simple chapel, not only dispensing free breakfasts (hopefully with bacon...), but also doing a little gentle evangelising at the same time - maybe just by giving food to the hungry...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?
As far as I know, the Skoptsy are now extinct. Since one of their practices was castration as the only really effective way to control lust, this may not be surprising.
A more moderate group I rather like, although I don't think they qualify as I don't think they are extinct, is a Scottish communion even wee-er and free-er than the others, which a friend discovered actually shuts down its website on the Lord's Day lest people be tempted to visit it.
I agree with Brenda that there is something particularly fascinating about the Agapemonites. For me, I suspect it is their particular combination of high-minded earnestness with (one suspects) a strong seasoning of charlatanism. It's also the thought of the promised land being located in Spaxton of all places, a pleasant enough but not particularly remarkable village near Bridgewater. I mean, come off it. I'ver been there.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?
On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And missions must've been difficult. What to do, in Asian nations where breakfast is rice congee? in America, where bagels or yogurt are the rule?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
When we worked in Indin India we used to have iddlies and sambar for breakfast.
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well, it is certainly amazing what one canlearn on this forum!!
And how one's despondent spirits [tough day!] can be lifted by reading of various sects and their beliefs. I'm tempted to become a professor such as Huia mentioned and spend my days reading of them.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Its another area that I'd like to read more about (I'm not even sure how organised their beliefs were) but Ranters and Diggers were quite fascinating movements.
I kinda get the impression that what we know of them is more to do with condemnations by other famous religious people who tended to have their utterances recorded than directly from them.
Also the Brotherhood Church movement after Tolstoy. I think the latter exists in a post-religious form.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I think I mentioned earlier the followers of Joanna Southcott, and their successors 'The New and Latter House of Israel'. I now find that Joanna Southcott's famous 'Box' gave rise to what became 'The Panacea Society', at a slightly later period, but that this ceased to be a religious body in 2012.
I've always thought the House of Bishops are a bunch of miserable spoilsports for not fulfilling the conditions that would allow the Box to be opened ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.
Well said. There's someone who knows their Bible.
Indeed, wouldn't that make kippers particularly iniquitous, worse than, say, a boiled egg?
Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?
Preserving the history and artifacts is a worthwhile thing, no?
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arse
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And something has to be done with the money; you can't just drop it into a dark corner and forget it. The same with the Agapemones and their real estate holdings.
I am perusing Abode of Love by Kate Barlow with great benefit -- this is the tell-all memoir of the granddaughter of the Agapemone founder. She is as you might expect conversant with many a vaguely-Christian cult, and mentions one new to me: the Christadelphians. Not Trinitarian, dear me. There seems to have been a good deal of infection back and forth across the Atlantic, of creative religion.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
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arse
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ranters and Diggers (or Levellers) appear to have been early Nonconformist bodies, springing up around the time of the Commonwealth, but now extinct as separate religious groups.
The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
They're involved in Aged Care facilities around various states here, though I don't recall seeing a church for a while -- they must be out there. Interesting how wide-spread they are in the UK.
I thought I'd take a look but their website has no church details.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
Yeah, my point was the religious places along the road mentioned did not include a Ressurection Hall not that the Christadelphians are an extinct sect.
Jengie
[ 03. March 2017, 19:28: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
Bishop's Finger commented:
quote:
The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.
In our local market town in Lincolnshire there is a little sidestreet called Ranters Row, after the Methodist conventicle that used to be there – Prims, I think; certainly not Wesleyans.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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keibat
Shipmate
# 5287
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Posted
mr cheesy suggested that the Primitive Methodists' heartland was in South Wales, to which betjemaniac responded:
quote:
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
My grandparents, on both sides, were Prims, in East Hull. Very urban indeed; Respectable Working Class, with some overflow into the clerical occupations.
Gave my parents, both of them, a lasting aversion to Evangelical versions of the Church.
But I agree that the whole of the East coast strip from the North York Moors down through Lincs is full of small Methodist chapels, of various subpersuasions, now closed.
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keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim
Posts: 93 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
A lot of small Methodist chapels have indeed closed, alas, but some of them at least went quite a while ago when the various Methodist sub-sects reunited. Isn't that what happened to the Prims? In which case, they're not extinct as such...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Mergers can be problematic for the minor party, and I understand that this was true for the Prims. They probably lost most of their chapels, and were expected to be adaptable and join the Wesleyans rather than the other way round.
I've heard that it took a while for some merged congregations to take on a new, united identity, but it's almost inevitable that when this did happen there was very little that was identifiably Prim that was left. So it's hard to argue that in the long term the Prims continued to exist as a distinct group, except in terms of cultural memory.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I think you're probably right about the residual cultural memory, given that the main Methodist mergers were about 70-80 years ago...
Ironically, in this area, a former Primitive Methodist Chapel survives - as a Christian Spiritualist Church - whilst a quite prominent Wesleyan Church, not far away, has completely disappeared, and been replaced by a block of flats..
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There were two large primitive chapels within a mile of here. One became derelict and was pulled down, one is now a junk shop. To Wesleyan chapels survive - one now taken over by another church, another the remaining Methodist church.
They were all barn-sized, probably could hold 300+ each.
I'm not claiming that South Wales was the "centre" of the primitives, but evidence from this valley suggests it was a major force at one time.
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arse
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
'round here the Methodist Merger was in 1885.
I don't know of any Primitive Methodist shacks, but one was a former Bible Christian joint, the fourth brother in the merger.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Does it count that the headquarters of the New Connexion (I think*) were once across the street from where I now live? To give you some idea it merged in 1907 with Bible Christian Church and United Free Methodist to form the United Methodist which was the third branch to come into the Methodist in 1932.
Jengie
*I know it was the headquarters of one small Methodist Sect and the only one I can find that is reported as having its headquarters in the area is New Connexion.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I guess it does count - there can't be many left from the 1907 merger! The cultural memories of the New Connexion would have lasted longer, of course.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What makes a bunch of people a sect, rather than a subdivision or branch of some denomination? Can it be just the differences in preaching/hymns/worship? Surely a hellfire preacher would be a subdivision or something of Protestantism.
I think it wanders off into being a sect when they vary in doctrine. If you're not Trinitarian, you're parting company with main line Christianity, yes? And clearly the more whacko beliefs, the free love or "I am Jesus returned to earth" stuff, are not going to be accepted by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't think there is much difference between a sect and a denomination, rather they're a spectrum.
First people are in one church, there is some kind of split over something resulting in one or more sect which might eventually formulate themselves officially as a denomination which in time might even turn into something identifiable as a separate religion.
There are Christian sects, there are non-Trinitarian Christian sects, there are sects which are post-Christian.
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arse
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well, there is a wide discussion on the nature of Sects in sociology. It is normally compared with Church rather than denomination. Denomination basically means that the group has a name.
Jengie
[ 06. March 2017, 16:16: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Certainly Spufford makes the allusion. But the book is set about 40 years before the Connexion was founded.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I have both a former Primitive Methodist building (now replaced by a post-merger Methodist church next door, I think it is a private home now) and a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel (still going) near me - I'm on the North Hampshire/West Berkshire border. This is Nonconformist country - opposite the former Primitive Methodists is a URC church that was a fairly early Congregationalist church before their merger, a former barn building with a Nonconformist churchyard. Nearby Basingstoke has many Quaker graves, all flat to the ground to symbolise equality. Quite a few Gospel Halls, the nearest near me was a terraced cottage converted into one which has been converted back into a normal house and sold. I think it may have been one of the Calvinist Baptist offshoots which use Gospel Halls for worship rather than Brethren, but not sure. I think I have seen both kinds of Gospel Halls in Northampton too.
Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.
That must have been hard to balance.
I'll collect my hat and coat on the way out.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I used to know someone who grew up in the PPs, and was very grateful as soon as he was old enough to be able to switch to the boring old Baptists.
David Bebbington, in IVP's A History Of Evangelicalism series, cites the Cokelers, or Society of Dependants, who believed in celibacy (hence their disappearance) and economic solidarity.
One of their hymns ran:
Christ's combination stores for me
Where I can be so well supplied
Where I can one with brethren be
Where competition is defied.
I seem to recall running across the Cokelers in the Dictionary of Sussex Dialect - they abjured intoxication from alcohol, tea or coffee, and were unaware of the theo-compounds in cocoa, so drank that.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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