Thread: Extinct Sect love Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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This is a very random thought - but which religious sect do you like that no longer exists? It must be like the parrot.
I rather like the Glasites and am quite sad that they no longer exist. Also whatever that sect was called which met in pub rooms and refused to tell anyone what they believed.
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
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It probably won't surprise anyone who knows the Glasite's alternative name to hear that I have a soft spot for them too. I nearly joined the Ship as Kail Kirk, but thought people might think I was Dundonian.
AG
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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I've remembered the other sect, it was the Muggletonians, of course. They were awesome.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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The followers of Joanna Southcott, and their later appearance as 'The New And Latter House Of Israel', founded by James Jershom Jezreel.
They flourished briefly in this area, and I have a couple of publications of theirs(including 'Extracts from The Flying Roll'), which, TBH, are almost unreadable.
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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BF will know that I just acquired a book about the Agapemones -- one of the many truly creative sects that popped up during the reign of Victoria.
Was it something about the times, or her example, or what? Somehow a large number of people in different parts of the world all decided to leap off the sexual rails, waving the flag of Christ as they did so. (Surely nothing says 'Run away! Now!' so clearly as a cult leader announcing that Jesus told him to have sex with you.)
I have at least three separate historical examples -- in addition to the Agapemones there are the Mormons and the Oneida people -- and I am sure there are more.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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The Oneida Community sounds like it could have been fun. Free love, no sin -- who could ask for more?
And anyone who wrote a book denouncing marriage called The Battle-Axe couldn't have been all bad.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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The Agapemonites were the ones immediately suggested to me by the OP, but the above-mentioned J. J. Jezreel was also reputed to have had sex with under-age girls, as well as whipping, disciplining, and imprisoning them. Indeed, he married a 15-year old local lass ('Queen Esther'), and she succeeded him briefly as leader of the sect before her own premature death in 1888. The sect continued into the late 20th C - the publications I referred to date from the 1970s - and may well still have a shadowy half-life today.
I wonder if Brenda is right - the oppressive 'official' Victorian sexual morality may well have caused many people to break free, as it were, using religiosity as a cover-up and/or excuse.
Some of the odder sects, like the 'Joannas', the Plumstead Peculiars, or Walworth Jumpers, were doubtless decent, if misguided, people. The same could be said, of course, of some of today's marginal Christian or pseudo-Christian groups!
IJ
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Oops - a slip of the finger...but the Lord Has Revealed To Me In A Dream That I Must Correct My Error.
'Queen Esther' (J. J. Jezreel's wife) was actually 25 when they married, though she had known him since she was 15, being part of the group of Southcottians he took over in 1875, when it was revealed to him that he was the Messenger Of The Lord. She died at the age of 28.
IJ
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on
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Was going to say the Shakers, but Wikipedia tells me that 2 still remain--a man, 58, and woman, 77.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Thanks for all these sect names to look up, good job.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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Well let's say the Shakers, anyway, Siegfried! Started by a woman, beautiful minimalists design, way ahead of it's time, an attempt at perfection which I always admire from afar. About 40 years ago, I was so obsessed with them I had my library order every book about them in the entire state. Then I went to Kentucky and visited one of their beautiful (no people left) communities and didn't want to leave. Love them.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
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I like the Sandemanians, but as a descendant of Ramshorn Primitive Methodists who were actually from Ramshorn - now there's a claim to fame - can I have Primitive Methodists?
If I wasn't CofE I could quite happily be a methodist.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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The Jacksonites
(Scroll down a bit for the beginning of an article about them.)
I remember that article from my home province in the 1980s. There was a picture of a JW girl solemnly holding up her copy of Thriller. How long they lasted, I do not know, though I don't think they underwent much membership growth.
Also, possible, I suppose, that they were just pretending to believe that, in order to get themselves in the news(and it would be hard for a reporter to tell the difference). I suspect they would have been disfellowshipped pretty quickly in either case.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Well the only reason for stipulating that the sect be dead was to avoid offending anyone who might currently identify themselves as belonging to them.
Primitive Methodists are quite interesting - they were a very big movement around here in South Wales. I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I like the Sandemanians, but as a descendant of Ramshorn Primitive Methodists who were actually from Ramshorn - now there's a claim to fame - can I have Primitive Methodists?
If I wasn't CofE I could quite happily be a methodist.
For the sake of clarity I'm not calling Methodism a sect btw!
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
Well officially of course they united with the Wesleyans in the 1930s. I'm sure there are some surviving dissenting dissenters but I'm not sure I'd include them - any more than I regard the Liberal Party and the SDP as anything other than dead in practical terms despite the fact that technically both still exist!
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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According to Wikipedia this group still has three surviving members so it's not quite extinct, but I like the House of David just because they had a touring baseball team.
House of David baseball team
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Due to American tax law there is a powerful incentive to create your own religion. You, as the founder and prophet, become its minister, your house becomes the manse or church and thus exempt from taxes, your followers get to deduct the money they give to you as a charitable deduction, and so on. The grand example of this is L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists, but there are many many others. There are even web pages telling you how to go about it. Some of these are dimly and distantly related to Christianity and some of them decidedly are not.
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Well let's say the Shakers, anyway, Siegfried! Started by a woman, beautiful minimalists design, way ahead of it's time, an attempt at perfection which I always admire from afar. About 40 years ago, I was so obsessed with them I had my library order every book about them in the entire state. Then I went to Kentucky and visited one of their beautiful (no people left) communities and didn't want to leave. Love them.
Not only started by a woman - Ann Lee, Mother Ann ("Hands to labour, hearts to God") - but having a number of prominent women, Jane Wardley, Lucy Wright, etc., and the Eldresses who, sadly (in my opinion), closed the Covenant around 1957(?), dooming the sect to extinction.
Remarkable sect, and Christendom is the less for their eventual disappearance. I do wonder whether, after the last two go unto the valley of love and delight, someone might start the Second United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing. Second... second.... perhaps not Shakers but the Two-squareds?
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
According to Wikipedia this group still has three surviving members so it's not quite extinct, but I like the House of David just because they had a touring baseball team.
House of David baseball team
There used be a House of DAvid community about 10 km from where we live and even closer to Mr Curly. They ran a small shopping development on a main road, and from memory a service (US gas) station and some tennis courts. That has all been replaced by a MacDonalds and a few other shops along with a large nursery which includes a pleasant cafe. No longer any connection with the original group AFAIK.
No surprise that the Shakers are disappearing - it's hard to build a church continuing into the future where all true believers are required to abstain from sex.
[ 27. February 2017, 19:47: Message edited by: Gee D ]
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I like the Sandemanians...
not to mention the Cockburnians, the Dowites, and the Fonsecistas
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
No surprise that the Shakers are disappearing - it's hard to build a church continuing into the future where all true believers are required to abstain from sex.
The Shakers maintained their numbers for a long time by taking in orphaned and abandoned children. I assume that modern child welfare laws put a stop to this.
Moo
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I like the Sandemanians...
not to mention the Cockburnians, the Dowites, and the Fonsecistas
AG
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
No surprise that the Shakers are disappearing - it's hard to build a church continuing into the future where all true believers are required to abstain from sex.
The Shakers maintained their numbers for a long time by taking in orphaned and abandoned children. I assume that modern child welfare laws put a stop to this.
Moo
Probably right in both aspects of your post.
I came across this: The House of David operated for many years on Lane Cove Road, and included a general store, picnic grounds, tennis courts, a miniature train ride, and a small zoo, later adding a VW car dealership to the complex. on the Wikipedia entry for the suburb. That certainly accords with my recollection. General store here means a shop selling a range of groceries, the equivalent to a modern 7/11 shop or small supermarket.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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You guys are so great. Somehow I had thought there were eight, maybe ten nutty sects in the period out there. Noooo! You reveal to me that there a dozens, hundreds! Human beings are almost infinitely creative, and how God puts up with us I do not know!
For maximal fun I think my fictional sect is going to be -both- polygamous and free love. As they say in the song, "We may see murder yet!"
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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Brenda, I'm not casting aspersions on your creativity, but in my opinion you would be hard pressed to invent anything weirder than the various sects that have existed over time .
As part of my B.A many years ago I did a course where we studied the Sociology of Religion. One of the required essays involved inventing a religious sect, outlining their teachings and stating what groups of people would be attracted to them. I think it was one of the Professor's favourite assignments to read.
Huia
[ 28. February 2017, 03:18: Message edited by: Huia ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Some of the Buchanites, founded in 1783 by Elspet "Lucky" Buchan, shaved their hair around the hairline, leaving a ponytail on the top of their heads. This was to make it easier for angels to grab their hair and pull them up into Heaven when they were raptured.
At one point Mother Buchan instigated a forty day fast for her followers although she herself continued to eat "lest her body should become so transparent that her followers would not be able to behold the brightness of her countenance."
Before she died she told her followers that she would return either six days, or ten years, or fifty years after her death. As a result they kept her body in a special room for the next fifty five years, covering it every day with a freshly heated flannel.
The last Buchanite died in 1846.
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
According to Wikipedia this group still has three surviving members so it's not quite extinct, but I like the House of David just because they had a touring baseball team.
House of David baseball team
There used be a House of DAvid community about 10 km from where we live and even closer to Mr Curly. They ran a small shopping development on a main road, and from memory a service (US gas) station and some tennis courts. That has all been replaced by a MacDonalds and a few other shops along with a large nursery which includes a pleasant cafe. No longer any connection with the original group AFAIK.
My first teaching post was at high school near there . When we were younger, dad often drove that way to various destinations. No Google then but I remember wondering just who they represented.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Some of the Buchanites, founded in 1783 by Elspet "Lucky" Buchan, shaved their hair around the hairline, leaving a ponytail on the top of their heads. This was to make it easier for angels to grab their hair and pull them up into Heaven when they were raptured.
At one point Mother Buchan instigated a forty day fast for her followers although she herself continued to eat "lest her body should become so transparent that her followers would not be able to behold the brightness of her countenance."
Before she died she told her followers that she would return either six days, or ten years, or fifty years after her death. As a result they kept her body in a special room for the next fifty five years, covering it every day with a freshly heated flannel.
The last Buchanite died in 1846.
I genuinely couldn't tell if you were making that up. Unless you also spun the same tale on wikipedia, you're not..
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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My source is D.P. Thomson's Women of the Scottish Church pp141-152 published in 1975. According to him, the Buchanites communal cooking pot was still being used as a garden feature when he visited the house in which her body had lain. However the owners of the house had built a bathroom extension over the former graveyard.
Apparently Mother Buchan encouraged new followers to throw their jewellry, watches etc onto a dust heap, from whence the items subsequently vanished.
[ 28. February 2017, 10:53: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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The Labour Church movement was founded in England in the late 19th c. to bridge the gap between left wing politics and Christianity for the working classes. It grew rapidly but also secularised rapidly, and fizzled out at the start of WWI.
As for the Shakers, people admire them mostly for their furniture, AFAICS. Furniture apart, their celibacy is severely out of favour now so it's hard know what they'd have to offer to the current age.
In fact, considering how licentious we incline to be as a species it's surprising that sexually liberated religions and sects haven't been more attractive in the long term. You'd wouldn't think people would still be arguing with strict groups such as the RCC and the evangelicals, etc. There's not much point in that.
Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Due to American tax law there is a powerful incentive to create your own religion. You, as the founder and prophet, become its minister, your house becomes the manse or church and thus exempt from taxes, your followers get to deduct the money they give to you as a charitable deduction, and so on. The grand example of this is L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists, but there are many many others. There are even web pages telling you how to go about it. Some of these are dimly and distantly related to Christianity and some of them decidedly are not.
On that note, let's not forget
Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption!
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In fact, considering how licentious we incline to be as a species it's surprising that sexually liberated religions and sects haven't been more attractive in the long term.
The problem with free love communities is that they usually fall into squabbling and jealousy. People who think they are completely open-minded discover that they are outraged when someone they are attracted to prefers someone else.
Moo
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Trudy Scrumptious, thank you so much for that link to John Oliver.....
May Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption bless you!
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In fact, considering how licentious we incline to be as a species it's surprising that sexually liberated religions and sects haven't been more attractive in the long term.
The problem with free love communities is that they usually fall into squabbling and jealousy. People who think they are completely open-minded discover that they are outraged when someone they are attracted to prefers someone else.
The Oneida community addressed this, campaigning all the time against 'stickiness' or 'selfish love'. You were supposed to bedhop without possessiveness; it was truly a group marriage. The other astonishing thing they did (which I would not credit, except that there is statistical proof) is birth control. Withdrawal was the doctrine; everybody male and female insisted this was perfectly satisfactory. And certainly the number of children born, compared to the number of sexually active people in the community, showed that it worked. The children of free-sex communities is the other major point of fail. In the day when you had to be legitimate to do many things this was an issue.
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
Well officially of course they united with the Wesleyans in the 1930s. I'm sure there are some surviving dissenting dissenters but I'm not sure I'd include them - any more than I regard the Liberal Party and the SDP as anything other than dead in practical terms despite the fact that technically both still exist!
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
They are alive if not necessarily well in the U.S.. They are mostly found in central Pennslyvania where most of the Welsh immigrants to this country ended up.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Primitive Methodists are quite interesting - they were a very big movement around here in South Wales. I'm not sure they are altogether dead, are they?
As you probably know, several of the British Methodists groups merged in the 1930s because they were losing members and also their theological and social distinctiveness. So ISTM that if any congregations deliberately remained outside the union (and survived) they were already so different from the norm that it might not be meaningful to see them as somehow representative of that earlier denomination.
The extent to which they might be seen as remnants on one hand or schismatics on the other probably depends on various factors. Nowadays, I'd guess that any independent congregation with distant Prim Meth (etc.) heritage is affiliated with an evangelical network, and chooses to emphasise its modernity rather than its history. 'Primitive Methodist' won't mean much in a contemporary setting, so a church is unlikely to emphasise it on its website, and it won't be present in the name of the church.
I'm thinking more of England though, not Wales or the USA.
[ 28. February 2017, 15:47: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
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Well, it is certainly amazing what one canlearn on this forum!!
[ 28. February 2017, 16:03: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The followers of Joanna Southcott, and their later appearance as 'The New And Latter House Of Israel', founded by James Jershom Jezreel.
They flourished briefly in this area, and I have a couple of publications of theirs(including 'Extracts from The Flying Roll'), which, TBH, are almost unreadable.
IJ
In their time, they managed to erect a distinctly odd building (temple) "Jezreel's Tower" which survived incomplete until the mid 20th century.
There's a wikipedia page on this odd lot which is well worth a look, for lovers of obscure cults. Modestly entertaining too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel's_tower
When I were a lad, I had to walk to school past a small terraced house which served as the meeting place of some small sect. According to the oversized notice board screwed on the front wall of the property, they called themselves "God's Peculiar People". I have no idea what they were about, and search engines don't seem to turn up anything of relevance.
[ 28. February 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
Posted by Diomedes (# 13482) on
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Honest Ron - I live in Prittlewell (Essex UK) where the Peculiar People had a presence worthy of the first hit on Google! Our erstwhile neighbours were members so they hadn't all died out 10 years ago. I'm not sure if their chapel is still in use, it's looking a bit unloved recently
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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The 'Peculiar People' still exist, but under another name....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People
They seem to have got themselves into trouble with the law at various times in the past by refusing medical help to their sick children (Davies mentions the case of Brother Hurry, in prison at the time of his visit to Plumstead), but otherwise appear to have been (and presumably still are) decent and godly people.
IJ
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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The colleague who was a Peculiar said that, when he was a child, he had a pain in the appendix area.
His parents wouldn't call a Doctor, but called the church Elders. They turned up, all clad in black - he was terrified. But they prayed - and he was fine after that!!!
That would have been about 60 years ago. But I only heard the story today.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
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Diomedes and Bishop's Finger - many thanks! You have filled a longstanding gap in my knowledge. I hadn't realised how local the Peculiar People were. As I think BF will know, my knowledge of all this relates to a childhood in N. Kent, though of course that is only just across the river from Essex.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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I used to know someone who grew up in the PPs, and was very grateful as soon as he was old enough to be able to switch to the boring old Baptists.
David Bebbington, in IVP's A History Of Evangelicalism series, cites the Cokelers, or Society of Dependants, who believed in celibacy (hence their disappearance) and economic solidarity.
One of their hymns ran:
Christ's combination stores for me
Where I can be so well supplied
Where I can one with brethren be
Where competition is defied.
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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I have a little bit of nostalgia for the Church of Jesus Christ at Armageddon, an old hippie sect that was based here in Seattle. They were more commonly known as the Love Family after their leader, who called himself Love Israel. All the members took the surname Israel and first names that were sometimes Biblical names but often expressed their personality or a virtue (Determination Israel, Logic Israel, Charity Israel, etc.). They were active when I was in college in the late 70s/early 80s and their commune was near our campus. A driver on the 13 bus route was in the habit of announcing the churches along his route; maybe this was his form of evangelism. When he'd get to the street they were at he'd announce, "McGraw Street--Church of Armageddon!"
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
first names that were sometimes Biblical names but often expressed their personality or a virtue (Determination Israel, Logic Israel, Charity Israel, etc.).
They sound like Puritan first names such as Praise God, Kill Sin and Flee Fornication.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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And of course Macaulay's Obadiah-Bind-Their-Kings-In-Chains-And-Their-Nobles-With-Links-Of-Iron, Sergeant in Ireton’s Regiment
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
first names that were sometimes Biblical names but often expressed their personality or a virtue (Determination Israel, Logic Israel, Charity Israel, etc.).
They sound like Puritan first names such as Praise God, Kill Sin and Flee Fornication.
I once met Vortex Israel. And the member who designed their communal residence was named Ingenuity.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I think I mentioned earlier the followers of Joanna Southcott, and their successors 'The New and Latter House of Israel'. I now find that Joanna Southcott's famous 'Box' gave rise to what became 'The Panacea Society', at a slightly later period, but that this ceased to be a religious body in 2012. Here we are:
http://panaceatrust.org/history-of-the-panacea-society/
Their museum would seem to be a good reason for visiting Bedford!
In a similar way, I believe the Catholic Apostolic Church still exists in the form of Trustees, but not as a worshipping body. The Trustees, however, continue to maintain some of the Church's surviving buildings (Gordon Square, Albury, and - I hope - Maida Vale).
IJ
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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What a resource you are, BF. The Panacea Society, I am thrilled. Distributing squares of linen as cures, really! Any time I think I am imaginative, I am put to the blush by plain reality.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Spending over a year being ill, having surgery, and then slowly recovering leaves me with lots of time on my hands!
But I've always been fascinated by the sheer variety of expressions of Christian (or sub-Christian) faith, and have gained pleasure and knowledge from recent studies.
IJ
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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I know a woman who grew up in a church which no longer exists called The Free Breakfast Mission.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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That's an interesting one.
I picture a small, modest, simple chapel, not only dispensing free breakfasts (hopefully with bacon...), but also doing a little gentle evangelising at the same time - maybe just by giving food to the hungry...
IJ
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?
As far as I know, the Skoptsy are now extinct. Since one of their practices was castration as the only really effective way to control lust, this may not be surprising.
A more moderate group I rather like, although I don't think they qualify as I don't think they are extinct, is a Scottish communion even wee-er and free-er than the others, which a friend discovered actually shuts down its website on the Lord's Day lest people be tempted to visit it.
I agree with Brenda that there is something particularly fascinating about the Agapemonites. For me, I suspect it is their particular combination of high-minded earnestness with (one suspects) a strong seasoning of charlatanism. It's also the thought of the promised land being located in Spaxton of all places, a pleasant enough but not particularly remarkable village near Bridgewater. I mean, come off it. I'ver been there.
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?
On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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And missions must've been difficult. What to do, in Asian nations where breakfast is rice congee? in America, where bagels or yogurt are the rule?
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on
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When we worked in Indin India we used to have iddlies and sambar for breakfast.
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well, it is certainly amazing what one canlearn on this forum!!
And how one's despondent spirits [tough day!] can be lifted by reading of various sects and their beliefs. I'm tempted to become a professor such as Huia mentioned and spend my days reading of them.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Its another area that I'd like to read more about (I'm not even sure how organised their beliefs were) but Ranters and Diggers were quite fascinating movements.
I kinda get the impression that what we know of them is more to do with condemnations by other famous religious people who tended to have their utterances recorded than directly from them.
Also the Brotherhood Church movement after Tolstoy. I think the latter exists in a post-religious form.
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I think I mentioned earlier the followers of Joanna Southcott, and their successors 'The New and Latter House of Israel'. I now find that Joanna Southcott's famous 'Box' gave rise to what became 'The Panacea Society', at a slightly later period, but that this ceased to be a religious body in 2012.
I've always thought the House of Bishops are a bunch of miserable spoilsports for not fulfilling the conditions that would allow the Box to be opened ...
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.
Well said. There's someone who knows their Bible.
Indeed, wouldn't that make kippers particularly iniquitous, worse than, say, a boiled egg?
Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?
Preserving the history and artifacts is a worthwhile thing, no?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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And something has to be done with the money; you can't just drop it into a dark corner and forget it. The same with the Agapemones and their real estate holdings.
I am perusing Abode of Love by Kate Barlow with great benefit -- this is the tell-all memoir of the granddaughter of the Agapemone founder. She is as you might expect conversant with many a vaguely-Christian cult, and mentions one new to me: the Christadelphians. Not Trinitarian, dear me. There seems to have been a good deal of infection back and forth across the Atlantic, of creative religion.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Ranters and Diggers (or Levellers) appear to have been early Nonconformist bodies, springing up around the time of the Commonwealth, but now extinct as separate religious groups.
The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.
IJ
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
They're involved in Aged Care facilities around various states here, though I don't recall seeing a church for a while -- they must be out there. Interesting how wide-spread they are in the UK.
I thought I'd take a look but their website has no church details.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.
Yeah, my point was the religious places along the road mentioned did not include a Ressurection Hall not that the Christadelphians are an extinct sect.
Jengie
[ 03. March 2017, 19:28: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
Posted by keibat (# 5287) on
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Bishop's Finger commented:
quote:
The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.
In our local market town in Lincolnshire there is a little sidestreet called Ranters Row, after the Methodist conventicle that used to be there – Prims, I think; certainly not Wesleyans.
Posted by keibat (# 5287) on
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mr cheesy suggested that the Primitive Methodists' heartland was in South Wales, to which betjemaniac responded:
quote:
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
My grandparents, on both sides, were Prims, in East Hull. Very urban indeed; Respectable Working Class, with some overflow into the clerical occupations.
Gave my parents, both of them, a lasting aversion to Evangelical versions of the Church.
But I agree that the whole of the East coast strip from the North York Moors down through Lincs is full of small Methodist chapels, of various subpersuasions, now closed.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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A lot of small Methodist chapels have indeed closed, alas, but some of them at least went quite a while ago when the various Methodist sub-sects reunited. Isn't that what happened to the Prims? In which case, they're not extinct as such...
IJ
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Mergers can be problematic for the minor party, and I understand that this was true for the Prims. They probably lost most of their chapels, and were expected to be adaptable and join the Wesleyans rather than the other way round.
I've heard that it took a while for some merged congregations to take on a new, united identity, but it's almost inevitable that when this did happen there was very little that was identifiably Prim that was left. So it's hard to argue that in the long term the Prims continued to exist as a distinct group, except in terms of cultural memory.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I think you're probably right about the residual cultural memory, given that the main Methodist mergers were about 70-80 years ago...
Ironically, in this area, a former Primitive Methodist Chapel survives - as a Christian Spiritualist Church - whilst a quite prominent Wesleyan Church, not far away, has completely disappeared, and been replaced by a block of flats..
IJ
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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There were two large primitive chapels within a mile of here. One became derelict and was pulled down, one is now a junk shop. To Wesleyan chapels survive - one now taken over by another church, another the remaining Methodist church.
They were all barn-sized, probably could hold 300+ each.
I'm not claiming that South Wales was the "centre" of the primitives, but evidence from this valley suggests it was a major force at one time.
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on
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'round here the Methodist Merger was in 1885.
I don't know of any Primitive Methodist shacks, but one was a former Bible Christian joint, the fourth brother in the merger.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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Does it count that the headquarters of the New Connexion (I think*) were once across the street from where I now live? To give you some idea it merged in 1907 with Bible Christian Church and United Free Methodist to form the United Methodist which was the third branch to come into the Methodist in 1932.
Jengie
*I know it was the headquarters of one small Methodist Sect and the only one I can find that is reported as having its headquarters in the area is New Connexion.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I guess it does count - there can't be many left from the 1907 merger! The cultural memories of the New Connexion would have lasted longer, of course.
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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What makes a bunch of people a sect, rather than a subdivision or branch of some denomination? Can it be just the differences in preaching/hymns/worship? Surely a hellfire preacher would be a subdivision or something of Protestantism.
I think it wanders off into being a sect when they vary in doctrine. If you're not Trinitarian, you're parting company with main line Christianity, yes? And clearly the more whacko beliefs, the free love or "I am Jesus returned to earth" stuff, are not going to be accepted by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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I don't think there is much difference between a sect and a denomination, rather they're a spectrum.
First people are in one church, there is some kind of split over something resulting in one or more sect which might eventually formulate themselves officially as a denomination which in time might even turn into something identifiable as a separate religion.
There are Christian sects, there are non-Trinitarian Christian sects, there are sects which are post-Christian.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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Well, there is a wide discussion on the nature of Sects in sociology. It is normally compared with Church rather than denomination. Denomination basically means that the group has a name.
Jengie
[ 06. March 2017, 16:16: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
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My sense of the difference (and I am by no means a sociologist) is social acceptability. Cults have very little and are the most fringy. Sects are a bit more acceptable/mainstream and denominations are a lot more. And of course there are other differences, such as how open to or shut off from the outside world they are.
[ 06. March 2017, 16:20: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]
Posted by Niminypiminy (# 15489) on
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Not at all extinct, but with such an alluring name that I can't resist including:
The Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion
I suspect it of being the original of the church that sends the hero on his American enterprise in Francis Spufford's Golden Hill.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Certainly Spufford makes the allusion. But the book is set about 40 years before the Connexion was founded.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
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I have both a former Primitive Methodist building (now replaced by a post-merger Methodist church next door, I think it is a private home now) and a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel (still going) near me - I'm on the North Hampshire/West Berkshire border. This is Nonconformist country - opposite the former Primitive Methodists is a URC church that was a fairly early Congregationalist church before their merger, a former barn building with a Nonconformist churchyard. Nearby Basingstoke has many Quaker graves, all flat to the ground to symbolise equality. Quite a few Gospel Halls, the nearest near me was a terraced cottage converted into one which has been converted back into a normal house and sold. I think it may have been one of the Calvinist Baptist offshoots which use Gospel Halls for worship rather than Brethren, but not sure. I think I have seen both kinds of Gospel Halls in Northampton too.
Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.
That must have been hard to balance.
I'll collect my hat and coat on the way out.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I used to know someone who grew up in the PPs, and was very grateful as soon as he was old enough to be able to switch to the boring old Baptists.
David Bebbington, in IVP's A History Of Evangelicalism series, cites the Cokelers, or Society of Dependants, who believed in celibacy (hence their disappearance) and economic solidarity.
One of their hymns ran:
Christ's combination stores for me
Where I can be so well supplied
Where I can one with brethren be
Where competition is defied.
I seem to recall running across the Cokelers in the Dictionary of Sussex Dialect - they abjured intoxication from alcohol, tea or coffee, and were unaware of the theo-compounds in cocoa, so drank that.
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