Ship of Fools: Psalm 51:5

Thread: Psalm 51:5 Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=030325

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

What do shipmates feel about the wording when we are told that 'in sin my mother conceived me'? To me it reads as though the woman is judged as being sinful for having borne a child which seems incongruous when a child born from love in a Christian marriage. Maybe it is referring back to Genesis and original sin, but I feel it isn't helpful to us to look on sex in marriage as being sinful. Also, to point a finger at the woman when it takes two to tango is also disturbing in these days of equality. Hopefully wiser Bible scholars than I can remedy my confusion.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

Someone more knowledgeable about the Hebrew can I'm sure shed more light, but my understanding is that this verse has nothing to do with sex or actual conception. It's David's poetic way, in a psalm of repentance, of describing the human condition. He is saying that some inclination to sinfulness is part and parcel of being human—embedded in our DNA, as it were.

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

The NET Bible translates the verse as:

quote:
Look, I was guilty of sin from birth,
a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

And the footnote further explains:

quote:
Heb “Look, in wrongdoing I was brought forth, and in sin my mother conceived me.” The prefixed verbal form in the second line is probably a preterite (without vav [coding mark that does not copy well] consecutive), stating a simple historical fact. The psalmist is not suggesting that he was conceived through an inappropriate sexual relationship (although the verse has sometimes been understood to mean that, or even that all sexual relationships are sinful). The psalmist’s point is that he has been a sinner from the very moment his personal existence began. By going back beyond the time of birth to the moment of conception, the psalmist makes his point more emphatically in the second line than in the first.

As I read that, they are acknowledging that the line could be read as suggesting the psalmist was conceived out of illicit sexual intercourse (or that all such relationships are sinful), but that that reading does not really make sense in context.

I tend to agree with that perspective. The psalm is all about the psalmist's own sinful nature.

Verse 1: I am a sinner, forgive me!
Verse 2: Forgive me, I am a sinner!
Verse 3: I know I am a sinner.
Verse 4: Hoo boy! Am I a sinner!
Verse 5: Well, this is the point. Does it make sense at this point to blame somebody else and say "Mom was a sinner"? That doesn't fit at all. It makes more sense, following Verse 4's declaration to follow with this: I've always been a sinner!
Verse 6: You expect better from me.
Verse 7: Forgive me!
Verse 8: Forgive me!
Verse 9: Did I mention that I am a sinner?
...and so on throughout the remainder of the psalm.

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

Apologies for the double post. Apparently the NET Bible link does not take you directly to the Psalm. To make life easier, here is a link to a variety of translations for Psalm 51.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

How else are we conceived other than through our mother? Even God Incarnate needed the cooperation of a woman.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Isn't it really saying that 'We're all in this together'?

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:

I tend to agree with that perspective. The psalm is all about the psalmist's own sinful nature.

Exactly. We can get this from the parallelism of Hebrew poetry. The first part of the verse is "I was born in iniquity" so the "sin" of the second half should be the psalmist's too, not his mother's.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. It hadn't occured to me that it meant that I was sinful at the time of my birth rather than the act of conception being sinful. I've wondered about the verse for many years, so I'm glad to finally discover the meaning.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've run into a number of people who get the same mistaken impression from that passage when it's quoted in the liturgy. Not sure what the remedy is, other than increased teaching. I wonder how much it contributes to the widespread idea that Christianity/God/the Bible condemns sex in itself as bad.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Isn't it really saying that 'We're all in this together'?

Yes, that's how it feels to me.
I don't read it as anti woman or highlighting the inequality of the sexes, something which unfortunately comes up elsewhere in the Bible, esp. Proverbs.
I see the Psalmist as saying that we all inherit the sin potential through no fault of our own. It doesn't leave me feeling sex is bad or that our mothers have acted inappropriately.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Of course. But a large segment of the population is apparently misreading it (mishearing it, whatever) and I was wondering if that contributed to the misunderstanding of sex in any major way.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I guess this is a case for using a different version of the psalm rather than the traditional one which obviously is ambiguous to more than me.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

This is just my opinion but here goes. I don't think the verse should be taken to have deep meanings about human nature, original sin, or anything else. I think it's just a hyperbole about how very very sinful he feels himself to be. I'm so sinful that I was even sinful when I was conceived. Now THAT is sinful, man!

He's not making any deep theological pronouncements about human nature, sin nature, natural nature, original sin, or anything else. He's just bragging about how damned sinful he is.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Although once Christianity had recognized original sin, this would be an ideal proof text.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Of course. But a large segment of the population is apparently misreading it (mishearing it, whatever) and I was wondering if that contributed to the misunderstanding of sex in any major way.

1500 years of the Church controlling our attitude to sex, (with good reason maybe? I don't know), has created more misunderstanding than the above psalm extract.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

This may be stretching it a little bit. But I had always assumed that David wrote this prayer of confession after Nathan had confronted him about what David had done to gain Bathsheba.

I think he is only talking about himself. He realizes the depth of his sin even back to the point of his conception.

I don't think David would have understood our "doctrine" of original sin. Nor do I think David would acknowledge that sex is sinful--though his affair with Bathsheba certainly would have been

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

The magic word mousethief, hyperbole. To read original sin in to this is the weakest of post hoc 'reasoning'.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is just my opinion but here goes. I don't think the verse should be taken to have deep meanings about human nature, original sin, or anything else. I think it's just a hyperbole about how very very sinful he feels himself to be.

Yup, agreed!

[ 22. September 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I've always read it as meaning that the psalmist, and we all, are sinful to the very core of our being and each in our own life has been sinful all of that life. I have no learned argument to support that, save that it is open on the text.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I've always read it as meaning that the psalmist, and we all, are sinful to the very core of our being and each in our own life has been sinful all of that life. I have no learned argument to support that, save that it is open on the text.

Only if you read the Psalmist as offering lines for any of us to claim. Maybe that was the purpose: giving us all words to say when we felt that sinful. Maybe he was talking about just himself. Who knows. We've felt the universality in it just like we do in a good story or folk song or whatever. But the text does not actually even hint at the idea that this applies to all of us. The claim is only made about whoever "I" refers to.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0