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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Old Testament Prophets
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simwel
praying fool
# 12214
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Posted
There is a view that some of the Old Testament prophets were in fact prophetic communities; that is a group of prophets’ either living together or dispersed rather than an individual. However, I have searched the internet and can find no reference to this idea. Could shipmates help? It may be just one of those ideas that are entirely fanciful, and complete rubbish; or it could have some truth.
Posts: 74 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think the regular interpretation of something like Amos 7:14-15 ("I was neither a prophet nor a prophet's son, but I was a shepherd and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees. But the LORD took me from tending the flock and said to me, 'Go, prophesy to my people Israel'") is that there were bands of prophets, with that being a hereditary role. However, Amos is declaring that he is not a member of such a group.
On the otherhand, Isaiah is often seen as the prophetic message through a community of people over 2 or 3 generations.
So, I think the answer to the question is that some prophets were communities, others individuals. And, in several cases we will never know for sure which.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simwel:
There is a view that some of the Old Testament prophets were in fact prophetic communities; that is a group of prophets’ either living together or dispersed rather than an individual. However, I have searched the internet and can find no reference to this idea. Could shipmates help? It may be just one of those ideas that are entirely fanciful, and complete rubbish; or it could have some truth.
Well, to my knowledge, none of the Old Testament prophets save Jeremiah and his specific letter to the exiles (Jeremiah 29) directly wrote the books attributed to them. Their prophecies were likely written down by scribes and disciples who wanted to keep a record of their teacher's oral teachings.
Save Jonah who most scholars suspect falls into the genre of fable/myth, most prophets I believe were historical figures, principally because I think it is unlikely to create fictional characters to lend credence to prophetic teachings. Isaiah is an interesting case in this regard because it seems that to lend credibility to the teachings of Second and Third Isaiah, the community responsible for these writings felt it necessary to connect it with the actual historical Isaiah of Second Kings. Rather than create a fictional prophet to lend credibility to these writings, the community saw it fit to anchor its writings in a historical person, much the same way that the community responsible for the Pseudo-Pauline writings felt it necessarily to root their writings in the historical Paul.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
On the basis that " a stream does not rise higher than its source" I do not doubt that the prophets were spokesmen of a particular community.
Any more than Mark represents the tradition which was circulating in Rome at the time he wrote his gospel.
But to say that ignores the particular insight and inspiration which an individual ( be he prophet or gospel writer) brings to the 'tradition' he inherits.
Stendahl identified a "school of Matthew" and it may well be that there was an "Isiahanic school" as well. So be it. But I don't think that makes it impossible to speak either of Isaiah or Matthew.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Would the references to the "schools of the prophets," "sons of the prophets" or "company of the prophets" that are prevalent in the books of Samuel and Kings, fit in here? Remember that Elisha made the ax-head float in the process of building a new meeting place for the sons of the prophets (KJV) or "company of the prophets" (NIV).
1 Samuel has the prophets in a group going around prophesying with musical accompaniment, which sounds sort of fun -- I picture a dancing Pentecostal worship group, sort of like the "March for Jesus" (anyone been on one of those back in the late 90s/early 2000s?). This is the group into which Saul got temporarily swept up, leading to the question, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
Prophets, in a company or a school or some sort of group (seems to depend a lot on translation), were also present on the day Elijah was taken up into heaven, giving Elisha advance warning of the event.
Whatever the rules and practices of prophetic communities, they obviously didn't include celibacy, since one of them left behind a widow and children when he died, leading to Elisha performing one of my favourite OT miracles.
These are just a few examples, but references to prophets living together, travelling around and prophesying in groups, seems to be quite frequent in the era between from the founding of the monarchy at least up to the Elijah/Elisha period. While E & E are the star prophets who get all the good miracles during the latter period, the narrative suggests that prophets were by no means a rare phenomenon, and that they were more likely to travel in packs than to be lone wolf superstars like the two E's.
By the time of the prophets whose prophecies get written down, there seem to be a lot fewer references to prophets in groups. I wonder if the role got more formalized and perhaps the society more structured, so that roving bands of ecstatic mystics were less tolerated?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
To judge by the contents of the written prophets, a lot of what they did seems to have been preaching. So perhaps it involved less ecstasy and more humdrum than we might suppose.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Not only do they appear to spend a lot of time proclaiming and preaching, but many of those groups of prophets also seem to be associated with particular locations rather than itinerant. More like the local clergy than camel hair clad mystics.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
ISTM that prophets for the most part were little more than spin doctors for the rich and powerful who paid them. The game is given away by Amaziah:
Almos 7 "Then Amaziah said to Amos, “Get out, you seer! Go back to the land of Judah. Earn your bread there and do your prophesying there. 13 Don’t prophesy anymore at Bethel, because this is the king’s sanctuary and the temple of the kingdom.”
14 Amos answered Amaziah, “I was neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I was a shepherd, and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees. 15 But the Lord took me from tending the flock and said to me, ‘Go, prophesy to my people Israel.’ 16 Now then, hear the word "
We also recall the function of the Prophets of Baal re Elijah.
The prophets we revere, I suspect, were atypical of most prophets, whether organised in schools or not.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Also other gods had prophets such as the prophets of Baal that Elijah had slaughtered (1 Kings 18).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A very useful understanding: a school of Isaiah, thanks.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Many egyptian gods had groups of prophets attached to their temples, and the First Prophet of a god was one of the god's senior priests.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm aghast at my ignorance of nearly 50 years, that I've only just got to where scholars have been at for centuries - Christian, millennia - Jewish.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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