|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Jesus on the Floor
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
On Sunday I went along to a well-known local shrine church for Evensong. This is the sort of place that appends Benediction onto the office.
Throughout the Office, the monstrance, veiled, is reposed on the floor next to the Holy Table.
Knowing in what regard this sort of churchmanship holds the Blessed Sacrament, it seems somewhat -- blase? -- to keep It on the floor.
Why might this be? The sort of reputation enjoyed by this parish would lead one to suppose this practice cannot be completely out of the ordinary.
Is it?
And where do you keep your monstrance?
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
That's a new one on me. I've only ever seen the monstrance kept on the credence table, veiled. Generally positioned so it's side-on to the congregation.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
Not that such things generally occur in places I serve, but in my experience, the Blessed Sacrament is not placed in the monstrance until the altar has been prepared for Benediction and the monstrance put on the altar. So I would hazard a guess that the monstrance on the floor didn't have the Sacrament in it.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I would think that this is correct.Certainly in the RC church the Host is placed in the monstrance at the moment of Exposition.
It would be unusual to see the monstrance on the floor.however loical custom etc.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
I have seen it placed on the floor on the altar step (in a Capuchin church, actually) - given how reverently the Host was treated it didn't strike me as especially odd...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
The Blessed Sacrement is placed in the monstrance on the altar, and removed from the monstrance when the veneration is over. It is never kept in the monstrance which is often stored off the altar.
As for placing it on altar steps, this may be to make the Blessed Sacrament more visible to those adoring, in cases where the altar is far from the people.
This is from a Catholic perspective; I am unsure what is the usual practice of Anglicans and any others.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
The Blessed Sacrament is (or was when I last visited) exposed in a monstrance on or near the floor in the woodland chapel at St Beuno's Spirituality Centre in North Wales. There is no permanent altar.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
Has anyone invented a combination monstrance/tabernacle? I'm thinking a tabernacle but with a little shuttered window in it. That way, when Jesus wants to sleep, the window is closed, but when it's time for Him to be seen, the window can be opened.
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
Placing the empty monstrance on the floor when it is waiting to be needed later in the service, I have never come across on my travels.
The OP does not say whether the monstrance is placed directly on the floor, without a mat or corporal. If that is the case, then to me, it is unseemly, because it then collects the dirt, which gets transferred to the altar when that moment comes. I hope that eventuality is averted.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Generally positioned so it's side-on to the congregation.
It was indeed side-on.
It will come as no surprise to older hands that I typically take my leave at the conclusion of the office, so I'm not sure about when the Host is placed in the monstrance (I always assumed if the monstrance was veiled, Jesus was in there).
And yes, when I say 'on the floor' I mean the top altar step.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
As others have suggested, if the monstrance is veiled that means that the host is not present in the monstrance.
The host (usually held in a device called a lunette) is kept in the tabernacle. Before the tabernacle door is opened, the veil is removed and a bell is rung to let everyone in the church know. Then the lunette is slid into place, the monstrance rotated to face the congregation.
We wouldn't keep the monstrance on the footpace (what ya call the top step leading up to the altar) preferring to keep in on the credence. Still less would we keep the monstrance on the pavement (what ya call the floor before the bottom step up to the altar).
The only place the monstrance should be when the host is in it is on the altar, on top of a corporal, on top of the fair linen. Or, gripped by the priest with a humeral veil when blessing the congregation with tMBSotA ("the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Altar").
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
It's also better to refer to the sacred content of the monstrance as 'the Blessed Sacrament' which is indeed the full corporal presence of Jesus.
Certainly from a Catholic point of view it is indecorous to think of Jesus sleeping in the closed tabernacle and perhaps expecting Him to wave to the worshippers when the tabernacle doors are open.
Are some of the posters being ironic when they refer to 'Jesus on the floor' or are they indicating that they have little understanding of or belief in the Catholic doctrine of the real presence and transubstantiation.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I once attended Solemn Vespers and Benediction at Munich Cathedral, at which the Benediction was given by the Archbishop. (No, it wasn't that one - I think it was the one after him!) The monstrance was enormous - it looked at least four feet high. It took two ministers (deacons? - I can't remember their vesture) to lift it from the floor onto the altar, and two (priests?) to help the Archbishop lift it for the Benediction.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It's also better to refer to the sacred content of the monstrance as 'the Blessed Sacrament' which is indeed the full corporal presence of Jesus.
Certainly from a Catholic point of view it is indecorous to think of Jesus sleeping in the closed tabernacle and perhaps expecting Him to wave to the worshippers when the tabernacle doors are open.
Are some of the posters being ironic when they refer to 'Jesus on the floor' or are they indicating that they have little understanding of or belief in the Catholic doctrine of the real presence and transubstantiation.
It's a Eccles tradition going waaaaaay back to the MW days. Search Limbo for thread on such things as taking Jesus for Walkies. It's flippancy and meant humorously, such as the references you run across to "the Orthodox Plot".
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
And it's probably one of those Anglo-catholic quirks which are designed to shock their more protestant co-religionists and amuse/scandalise Roman Catholics. They take orthodox Catholic theology and practice to extreme (and arguably heretical) lengths.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I am sure that it is meant humorously.Yes,I have noticed such 'flippancy' before waaay back,but I haven't noticed it for some time,'clever' things like 'muffin in a monstrance'
There are lots of religious peculiarities and eccentricities which I can laugh at, but I still think it is not a good idea to mock something which one does not understand.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fullgospel
Shipmate
# 18233
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
On Sunday I went along to a well-known local shrine church for Evensong. This is the sort of place that appends Benediction onto the office.
Throughout the Office, the monstrance, veiled, is reposed on the floor next to the Holy Table.
Knowing in what regard this sort of churchmanship holds the Blessed Sacrament, it seems somewhat -- blase? -- to keep It on the floor.
Why might this be? The sort of reputation enjoyed by this parish would lead one to suppose this practice cannot be completely out of the ordinary.
Is it?
And where do you keep your monstrance?
The monstrance was empty !
The veiled Monstrance is waiting and empty.
The Host is placed in it when the time of adoration (onwards) arrives.
Any thing else we can help with ?
--------------------
on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
Posts: 364 | From: Rubovia | Registered: Sep 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Why doesn't someone write to the rector of the shrine in question and ask him why the (empty) monstrance is kept on the floor instead of on the credence table?
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
There are lots of religious peculiarities and eccentricities which I can laugh at, but I still think it is not a good idea to mock something which one does not understand.
I'm sure the OPer and others who,have made flippant comments fully understand what they are saying!
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
If they do indeed understand,then all the more reason not to mock.
However,perhaps I take my beliefs too seriously
so I shall leave it at that and say .t'is the season to be jolly.Happy Christmas.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
If they do indeed understand,then all the more reason not to mock.
However,perhaps I take my beliefs too seriously
so I shall leave it at that and say .t'is the season to be jolly.Happy Christmas.
Forthview,
I don't think you're taking your beliefs too seriously. The thing is, the Mystery Worshiper board was dominated by spikey Anglo-Catholics and so their type of humor was taken for granted. This carried over when the board became Ecclesiantics at least for a time.
So yes, the ones who make flippant comments know what they're doing but it doesn't hurt to point out from time to time that this kind of humor isn't shared so much among (Romans-if-you-insist) Catholics. If anything, you might be doing the Anglo-Catholics a favor in helping them avoid awkward moments.
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Has anyone invented a combination monstrance/tabernacle? I'm thinking a tabernacle but with a little shuttered window in it.
I read of something like this earlier this year. Some parishes have Perpetual Adoration chapels and I read of one where if someone enters the tabernacle opens up to reveal the Blessed Sacrament already exposed in a monstrance. When the people leave it is closed. I don't remember if this was done automatically or if someone had to push a button. The Blessed Sacrament exposed isn't supposed to be left unattended.
At the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Alabama there is a monstrance above the altar that is veiled during mass and is unveiled afterwards. There is a similar set up at the EWTN chapel where the friars celebrate daily mass on television. If you ever watch their broadcasts, once the dismissal is given and the Prayer of St. Michael is recited a friar climbs up from behind and unveils the monstrance. I don't remember if the host is placed in the monstrance by the friar or if it's already there.
Some newer churches are built with a tabernacle open from both sides built into a wall behind the altar so that an adoration chapel can be built on the other side. I once stayed at a friary with an arrangement similar to this (though the tabernacle wasn't directly behind the altar). On one side was the main church and on the other side was the friars' chapel where they pray Lauds (Morning Prayer).
[ 17. December 2014, 19:52: Message edited by: Pancho ]
--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ST
Shipmate
# 14600
|
Posted
St Saviour's Priory in Haggerston, East London, has a combination tabernacle monstrance in one of their chapels to allow perpetual adoration. I couldn't get the img tag to work so have linked an URL instead
Picture here
--------------------
Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
Posts: 114 | From: No longer in the South-west of the UK! | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
'clever' things like 'muffin in a monstrance'
This is pretty clever.
It's a way of directing the dry mock at folk who insist that the Eucharistic host 'look like bread.'
It's nigh to impossible to put a piece of pita bread in the lunette of a monstrance.
Thus, the alliterative: You can't put a muffin in a monstrance.
The folk who knowingly use this expression are dead serious in their high view of the Real Presence.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
this kind of humor isn't shared so much among (Romans-if-you-insist) Catholics
Hmm. I may be an Anglo-Catholic, but I was brought up RC, and pretty distinctly taught that Christ was present "body and blood, soul and divinity" in the MBS. That would seem to pretty much cover all the bases: what else of Jesus is there?
Surely Roman Catholics, if they believe their Eucharistic doctrine, have even less reason than anyone else not to refer to Jesus upon the altar, in the tabernacle, and in the monstrance. I can't imagine what Forthview can mean by "better to refer" other than perhaps "less discomfiting". Certainly not "more accurate," if an orthodox Catholic sacramental theology (however "indecorous" Forthview finds it) is assumed.
[ 18. December 2014, 04:36: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
Of course Catholic doctrine teaches that Christ is present 'body and blood,soul and divinity' filling completely the Eucharistic bread.
The trouble,for me anyway, is that these humorous asides give the impression that we human beings control Jesus and can put him down on the floor or put him to sleep in the tabernacle.
If one understands the doctrine,it is we who indeed benefit from the Presence of Jesus in the
Eucharistic bread and wine,but not in any way
can we play around with it.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Sounds like Cranmer that. Or at least the 39 articles. I agree with you of course.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
As others have suggested, if the monstrance is veiled that means that the host is not present in the monstrance.
OK, so stupid question: if it is empty, why is it veiled?
(I realise this may be a custom for which there is no actual explanation. Just curious)
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Sounds like Cranmer that.
Quite!
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
If they do indeed understand,then all the more reason not to mock.
However,perhaps I take my beliefs too seriously
so I shall leave it at that and say .t'is the season to be jolly.Happy Christmas.
I don't think it's that simple. There is an oddity to English Anglo-Catholic culture which I know, from a Welsh friend among others, that the rest of the world find deeply alienating, but which is nevertheless real and worthy of respect. Possibly out of a deep fear of being found at want in our practice of effortless superiority, we tend to make light of what we care about most. Therefore, all of these references to parking Our Lord and Saviour on the floor should be taken as a sign of reverence, however apparently backhanded, not the reverse.
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
HT - it's veiled because the whole point of a monstrance is that you should be able to see the Host - so if it's veiled it's empty. At Benedictions to which I have been the procedure seems to be that the monstrance is put on the altar ; the Host goes into it and a bell is rung
With regard to Forthview's points I think one first has to bear in mind that Anglo-Catholicism is only one strand in Anglicanism amongst several whereas Roman Catholicism, whilst not being monolithic is probably more homogeneous - it's a way of asserting the group if you like. Certainly Anglo-Catholics when in a group do have a lot of fun and this is from someone from outside in that I do not accept the whole of Anglo-Catholicism. There seems to be a self-deprecating sort of humour which probably shocks others - in a way I suppose it's a form of self-protection (?) although I may be wrong
On other aspects I do worry a bit about Benediction and processions of the Blessed Sacrament. On one level I do find them very impressive, moving and beautiful even and yes, if I'm honest I enjoy them. But on the other hand I do feel that the Blessed Sacrament was given to us for Holy Communion and no other purpose and I worry about using the Sacrament for a secondary purpose. My views on the Presence are Lutheran rather than Catholic and I would have quite a bit of difficulty in accepting the definition of transubstantiation that Forthview and others have expounded or at least in its entirety, and this if I may say so comes from someone who values the Eucharist highly and who receives the Sacrament more than once during the week
One thought also occurred to me - there are often differences in doctrine mentioned between Anglican and Roman Catholic but this thread has made me wonder there may well be differences of psychology and spirituality between the two churches and these can be just as difficult perhaps as the more obvious differences in doctrine? Just a thought........
By the way Forthview I will say that I enjoy reading your posts and find them interesting and informative so I hope I can say the above without giving offence......
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
As a staunch High-Anglican, given to kissing icons and going on my knees in front of relics, I see jokey words about what we do to be very necessary. It's like when one can joke about a friend or family member.
Maybe it's a working-class thing, taking the piss out of those one loves/has great affection for. When I worked in a cathedral the lectern was called "the budgie" by some of the Vergers.
I have "worse" jokes about High-Anglican/RC practices that I only share with friends. Guess I won't put them here.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
If it is empty, why is it veiled?
Nothing to see here, folks.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
I think that the veil over the monstrance has two purposes - first of all, simply and practically , to protect the monstrance and secondly, but incidentally ,it lets people know that monstrance does not contain the Blessed Sacrament.
As has been mentioned already,I think,the monstrance is generally placed sidewards near the altar before the Host is placed within it and then rotated to face the people when the Blessed Sacrament is there.
Before Vatican 2 the monstrance,like the chalice or ciborium,should in general only be touched directly by a priest,who would place the monstrance close to the altar before Benediction.
Nowadays these rules have disappeared,but probably the monstrance in this particular church
was placed on the floor,close to the altar,to allow the priest to reach it easily.
The OPer said that he did not understand the ceremony so it is only natural he should ask his question in the way that he did.
It has been for me an interesting exchange of views and given me a better understanding of Anglo-Catholicism. I hope at the same time it gives Anglo-Catholics a better understanding of the views of at least some of their (Roman) Catholic fellow Christians.
When in England (and in other countries also) I like to seek out Anglican churches of all types,
to compare and contrast but also more importantly to worship with fellow Christians.
Anglo-Catholics tend to maintain the service of Benediction,much more than the Catholic church.
Before Vatican 2 and before the advent of evening Masses Benediction was a popular devotion in the Catholic church,but nowadays many Catholics will never have attended this ceremony.When it does take place today it is in a much simpler form than
50 years ago.
The last time ,for example,when I was at Benediction, was in September,when I attended Mass in a convent for enclosed nuns in Spain.Before the Mass there had been Exposition which concluded with Benediction.
The ceremony began with the singing of' O Salutaris Hostia'
O Salutaris Hostia
Quae caeli pandis ostium
Bella premunt hostilia
Da robur,fer
Auxilium
I quote this in Latin and I hope I will be forgiven if I do not give a translation.
Before Vatican 2 every Catholic would have known and been able to sing these words.For years I had little idea of what the words actually meant (and that is why I do not provide a translation)but they were the words which were used to honour Jesus Christ present in the Most Blessed Sacrament.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Before Vatican 2 every Catholic would have known and been able to sing [the Latin words to O Salutaris Hostia].
Not to mention Tantum Ergo Sacramentum, which followed it in the service of Benediction.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Before Vatican 2 every Catholic would have known and been able to sing [the Latin words to O Salutaris Hostia].
Not to mention Tantum Ergo Sacramentum, which followed it in the service of Benediction.
I know both in Latin more or less by heart and on occasions, I am present when these Latin hymns are sung and I can join in.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
O Salutaris Hostia
Quae caeli pandis ostium
Bella premunt hostilia
Da robur,fer
Auxilium
The translation in the Hymnal 1940 (by Caswall) :
O saving Victim, op'ning wide
The gates of Heav'n to man below:
Our foes press on from every side;
Thine aid supply, thy strength bestow.
All praise and thanks to thee ascend
For ever more, blest One in Three;
O grant us life that shall not end
In our true native land with thee. Amen.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
|
Posted
As can be seen here, the veiled monstrance (turned sideways) rests upon the altar in my parish.
I see no reason for it to be on the credence table during evensong, and I don't like the idea of the monstrance on steps or on the floor, if for no other reason, than the potential dirt factor.
During adoration, the monstrance rests upon a foot-tall pyramid allowing for better visibility.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the Church of England, would it help if I mentioned that both Exposition and Benediction are rare in the CofE, restricted to the spikiest Anglo-Catholic parishes, and generally regarded, both by those that do it and the rest, as a party statement?
It's also generally assumed, both by those that do it, and those that don't, to be flying in the face of Article 28.
I'm in my sixties and have only seen it in one CofE place. I suspect, though, that my reaction to what Hooker's Trick describes would have been much the same.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the Church of England, would it help if I mentioned that both Exposition and Benediction are rare in the CofE, restricted to the spikiest Anglo-Catholic parishes, and generally regarded, both by those that do it and the rest, as a party statement?
Actually, like incense and votive candles, which also used to be regarded as 'party statements', Benediction - while still rare in most places - has become more acceptable in recent years. I've never witnessed it at Southwark Cathedral, though the service schedule hints at something very similar; CR at Mirfield - which hasn't for a long time, even if it once was, been partisan a-c - now does it occasionally. Even the once staunchly protestant Liverpool Cathedral hosted it for a Walsingham festival a few years ago (warmly invited by the then Dean Justin Welby.)
And as to its contravention of the Articles, I was once present at a famous London shrine on the Sunday after the institution of the then incumbent, who as was obligatory in those days had to 'read himself in' by reciting the 39 Articles. He did this in between Evensong and Benediction, and when he got to the relevant article 'The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper' , he carefully emphasised the words, 'was not, by Christ's ordinance, elevated…etc.'
[ 20. December 2014, 17:23: Message edited by: Angloid ]
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
Actually, Angloid, that was Bicknell's point in his commentary on the articles IIRC - they go beyond the ordinance of Christ rather than a blanket condemnation which itself is surprising for the time
I know this service means a lot to quite a few Anglo-Catholics and I do not see them as 'cocking a snook' at the rest of us, and although uncommon is not all that rare. I know of two parishes here that do Benediction regularly ( not the one I attend) and at one time I don't think you'd get it at all. In Bristol where Enoch lives I'm pretty sure that All Saints Clifton do it. St.Mary Redcliffe and Christchurch don't. There might be suburban churches in Bristol that do it though - I don't know
By the way Hookers Trick used to be a Host on the old MW board - I can't help feeling that he either wanted to get a discussion started or else - less charitably perhaps(!) - speaking with forked tongue!!! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
By the way Hookers Trick used to be a Host on the old MW board - I can't help feeling that he either wanted to get a discussion started or else - less charitably perhaps(!) - speaking with forked tongue!!!
Pray keep your feelings to yourself. To me, that last comment (and the smilie with it) looks very close to being a personal attack.
John Holding
Ecclesiantics Host
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I know this service means a lot to quite a few Anglo-Catholics and I do not see them as 'cocking a snook' at the rest of us, and although uncommon is not all that rare. I know of two parishes here that do Benediction regularly ( not the one I attend) and at one time I don't think you'd get it at all. In Bristol where Enoch lives I'm pretty sure that All Saints Clifton do it. St.Mary Redcliffe and Christchurch don't. There might be suburban churches in Bristol that do it though - I don't know
All Saints Clifton have cut it back to only once a month.
Both Horfield churches do it regularly - S. Gregory's and Holy Trinity.
Holy Nativity Knowle does it monthly.
Various places do 'Devotions' which is the lead up to Benediction.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I know this service means a lot to quite a few Anglo-Catholics and I do not see them as 'cocking a snook' at the rest of us, and although uncommon is not all that rare. I know of two parishes here that do Benediction regularly ( not the one I attend) and at one time I don't think you'd get it at all. In Bristol where Enoch lives I'm pretty sure that All Saints Clifton do it. St.Mary Redcliffe and Christchurch don't. There might be suburban churches in Bristol that do it though - I don't know
All Saints Clifton have cut it back to only once a month.
Both Horfield churches do it regularly - S. Gregory's and Holy Trinity.
Holy Nativity Knowle does it monthly.
Various places do 'Devotions' which is the lead up to Benediction.
That's interesting. All Saint's Clifton is the only place I've encountered it. I've not been to the two churches in Horfield or Holy Nativity.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
|
Posted
I read this thread title initially as "Jesus on the dance floor"! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I've just watched the Strictly Come Dancing final, it's late, and I take this as notice that I should now go to bed, but it did rather grab my interest...
--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
this kind of humor isn't shared so much among (Romans-if-you-insist) Catholics
Hmm. I may be an Anglo-Catholic, but I was brought up RC, and pretty distinctly taught that Christ was present "body and blood, soul and divinity" in the MBS. That would seem to pretty much cover all the bases: what else of Jesus is there?
Surely Roman Catholics, if they believe their Eucharistic doctrine, have even less reason than anyone else not to refer to Jesus upon the altar, in the tabernacle, and in the monstrance. I can't imagine what Forthview can mean by "better to refer" other than perhaps "less discomfiting". Certainly not "more accurate," if an orthodox Catholic sacramental theology (however "indecorous" Forthview finds it) is assumed.
We do sometimes refer to Jesus in the Tabernacle and in the Blessed Sacrament. Especially when we're explaining things to little children. What we don't normally do is the glib and flippant humor about the Sacrament that dismayed Forthview. I think you might have remembered that from your days in communion with the Succesor of Saint Peter.
Therefore, if someone swims the Tiber or just dips his toes and just pays a visit and he talks about putting a "muffin in a monstrance" he might be in for a surprise.
--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I know this service means a lot to quite a few Anglo-Catholics and I do not see them as 'cocking a snook' at the rest of us, and although uncommon is not all that rare. I know of two parishes here that do Benediction regularly ( not the one I attend) and at one time I don't think you'd get it at all. In Bristol where Enoch lives I'm pretty sure that All Saints Clifton do it. St.Mary Redcliffe and Christchurch don't. There might be suburban churches in Bristol that do it though - I don't know
All Saints Clifton have cut it back to only once a month.
Both Horfield churches do it regularly - S. Gregory's and Holy Trinity.
Holy Nativity Knowle does it monthly.
Various places do 'Devotions' which is the lead up to Benediction.
Frustratingly both All Saints Clifton and Holy Nativity Knowle do Benediction on the 1st Sunday of the month (one at 6pm and the other at 5pm).
Do you mean Christchurch Clifton or Christchurch CIty? The former is evangelical and the latter is prayerbook, so neither is a place you'd expect to find Benediction. SMR has some of the trappings of high church, but it is not an Anglo-Catholic parish (even if one of its vergers is,.
I must visit Horfield for more than bellringing it would seem. I know Fr James at St Gregory's because he is a former SMR verger and still has links with the Guid of Vergers.
When I went to Benediction at All Saints' Clifton on the Sunday after Corpus Christi, there were 5 in the Sanctuary party, the organist, cantor and 3 of us in the congregation. But I was glad to have gone, though I'd like some silence in the mix.
Carys
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Devils Advocate
Shipmate
# 16484
|
Posted
During the incumbency of our previous Vicar we had E&B weekly, during the interregnum we had Evensong every week for the first 12 months ( either taken by the Reader or by one of the Churchwardens) except the 1st Sunday in the month when we had a priest present and could have benediction as well as Evensong. Weekly Evensong was dropped in the second 12 months of the interregnum as attendance was poor. Our current Parish Priest has of course continued E&B on the 1st Sunday of the month. In our case the Menorahs are in place on the Mensa of the High Altar before the office of Evensong begins (Unlit) as is the Corporal. The Monstrance is placed to the side of the Altar turned sideways and covered. At the end of the Office a hymn is sung The Menorah candles are lit and the MC ( Usually Me) moves the Monstrance onto the corporal, again still sideways, removes the veil and opens the door, ready for the Lunette with the MBS in it to be inserted into it by the Priest ( during the first verse of "O Salutaris" and turned to face the people, during the second verse he censes it. I would no more place the Monstrance on the floor than I would the ciborium of the chalices used for Mass) I suppose the monstrance could be placed on a credence table but when I started serving at E&B it was placed on the Altar and no one has suggested we move it
--------------------
"Oh I have wrought much evil with my spells"
Posts: 97 | From: Lincs | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
Sorry Carys - I meant Christchurch in the centre of Bristol - although it's yonks since I've been there. I tend to patronise SMR if I stay in Bristol although last time I was there I patronised St.Paul's Church Clifton which was just across the road where I was staying and was sensible C-of-E
quote:
SMR has some of the trappings of high church, but it is not an Anglo-Catholic parish (even if one of its vergers is,.
Carys
Yes....well.... this is what the CU in a certain university town does to you. It's all part of the High Anglican Plot......
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
