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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Criticising choruses, hymns and other worship songs
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idealistic 1980's kid
Apprentice
# 18387
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Posted
Greetings, I'm new here, I just found this discussion board whilst looking for lyrics to some choruses and came across the (dead) discussion on choruses and hymns that are repetitive, or have other off-putting features. Some remarks were funny and others were rather rude and very negative.
I could agree about lots of the critical comments: some songs do go on and on mindlessly repeating a line, and some have awkward or archaic grammar and don't make much sense, and some are projected with spelling mistakes.
I just think it's all a distraction when trying to concentrate on worshipping God!!
But then I don't think feeling critical helps us worship God either. We have to go along with whatever songs have been chosen, feeling a hypocrite sometimes, forgiving the spelling mistakes etc..!!
If we don't like the hymns and choruses for some reason - whether it's something wrong with the lyrics, music, instruments or with us (if the words point out our failings!) -perhaps we need to write our own songs to express to God what's really going on in our minds and hearts!! At least they'd be honest, even if no one else likes them!!
Posts: 1 | From: South Wales | Registered: Apr 2015
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I think you've misunderstood the purpose of the "dead horses" section. The thread on this topic is very much alive.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes but I think there is space in Ecclesiantics for a discussion on the role, place and selection of musical items within worship. That would not be the same as the Crappy Choruses and Horrible Hymns Redux thread in Dead Horses (or its predecessors if they are in Limbo or Oblivion).
There is also a possibility of discussing the role of critiquing worship while worshipping. That again is another question.
I am not quite sure which one the OP'er wants to follow so I will refrain from commenting on them until their views are clearer.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by idealistic 1980's kid:
I could agree about lots of the critical comments...
I just think it's all a distraction when trying to concentrate on worshipping God!!
But then I don't think feeling critical helps us worship God either.
Posting on the dead horses thread is not an act of worship, so why is critique in that place wrong?
Are you saying nothing done in a worship even can ever be criticized outside of worship? No one must ever admit to disliking, or being confused by, a song? A song with way to wide a range to sing cannot be protested to the music committee or to friends as inappropriate for congregational singing?
quote:
... -perhaps we need to write our own songs to express to God what's really going on in our minds and hearts!!
Many people do, or write poems, do sculpture, find ways of expressing worship individually, but that doesn't affect the appropriateness of Sunday morning song selections!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by idealistic 1980's kid:
We have to go along with whatever songs have been chosen
It's one thing not to like a song because it seems inappropriate for the liturgy of the day. But it's quite another thing not to like it because the tune is artless, the harmony pedantic, or the words vapid.
In either case, I just don't sing the song in question. It's impossible to please everyone all the time.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I sing everything I'm able to.* Church isn't a democracy and if it's what the duly appointed minister has selected for singing, it's what we're singing.
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* When presiding, there's quite a bit you can't sing, as you're doing something else at the same time, like setting up the altar. The other form of inability would be when the song is something I'm too unfamiliar with given the resources provided.
[ 09. April 2015, 18:38: Message edited by: Adam. ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Hi idealistic kid, and welcome to the Ship!
I think the discussion of what makes music suitable for use in worship, and how we respond to music that is not to ones own tastes, can very well be debated here in Ecclesiantics.
Please can everyone note that just bitching about things you dislike should be kept to the thread in Dead Horses where it belongs however!
Your cooperation is, as ever, appreciated...
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
I sing everything I'm able to.* Church isn't a democracy and if it's what the duly appointed minister has selected for singing, it's what we're singing.
It may be what *we* are singing, and if I can hold my nose (mentally) and get through it, I do. But if my unpremeditated impulsive reaction to the words is "huh? That's not true!" then I stop singing mid line.
Happened once when I was in choir, the song selector chose a song that ended with the lament "we walk the way alone." I startled and said out loud, involuntarily, "what?" instead of finishing the line. We had just done a baptism with clear verbal assurance "you are never alone." The mother of the baby was in tears at the song taking away the baptismal assurance.
As soon as the song ended the clergy person loudly proclaimed "that song is wrong, God is always with us."
I am unapologetic about failing to sing the dismal and untrue enduing of the song. Even on camera as a choir member!
I am not responsible for what songs the hymn-chooser landed on; but I am responsible to be honest before God in what I say and sing to or about God. "Just following orders, God" doesn't cut it. Marginal songs, fine, but flat out deadly anti-God's love WRONG - no!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by idealistic 1980's kid:
If we don't like the hymns and choruses for some reason - whether it's something wrong with the lyrics, music, instruments or with us (if the words point out our failings!) -perhaps we need to write our own songs to express to God what's really going on in our minds and hearts!! At least they'd be honest, even if no one else likes them!!
Well, of course, those people who are able to write songs do precisely that! And it's good that new worship music is always being written - however challenging it is - and always has been - to filter out the dross from the silver.
But even those of us who can't write or create music are perfectly at liberty to share our opinions about what we like or dislike. And as others here have said, some of it does come down to personal choice. And then some folks 'know what they like' and will dislike the finest examples of worship song/hymn of their type, simply because they're the 'wrong' type!
Some of our dislikes depend upon our own theological take. I've sometimes had the experience of singing an old hymn from my childhood, after a space of many years, and finding the words almost abhorrent to me, despite the pleasing familiarity of the tune, or the 'feel' of the poetry I used to love, once upon a time. And then some songs and hymns have a kind of time-lock feel to them; bringing back memories of a Christian event or a time in my faith when that music was like the backing-track to my life.
It's funny how some music from the 1980s and 1990s now seems dated, whilst so much of the more ancient stuff seems perennial. But is that because I grew up with the more ancient stuff? There's plenty of choruses and songs I'm still happy to sing, including the old-fashioned Sunday School stuff from Moody-Sankey onwards; but the more modern the stuff is the less 'timeless' it seems to be compared to older music. But, as I say, maaybe that's because of my own personal experience, rather than any deficiency or attribute in the style of music itself.
Quite a complex thing, music, when it comes to how we respond to or experience it.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
As I've said before, one of the advantages of singing mostly old hymns in church is that noone worries too much if the theology is 'approved'. Familiarity and a sense of continuing the tradition must blunt the critical senses to a certain extent.
If you belong to a church where the choir and/or congregation are expected to sing a more varied range of much more recent songs I can see how the likelihood of the songs causing theological and aesthetic offence to someone somewhere must be much greater. I don't know what the solution is.
The churches I go to are fairly traditional in terms of style and presentation. The 'modern' songs I come across are often of the social justice, let's-get-together type. Think: 'Bind us together, Lord'. People might get snooty about the tunes or the banal language, but it would be unacceptable to criticise the right-on message....
[ 09. April 2015, 21:52: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
One thing that I remember from my involvement with Anglicanism (over many years) in GB as well as through reading here for about ten years now, is that there are many people who have very precise views what they like regarding worship. I am one of them. Just last Palm Sunday, I stood and kept my mouth shut when "give my oil in my lamp" opened the Eucharist...
I note though, when I speak with RCs here, or with Orthodox, that for them, it seems to be the case that they are less concerned with the "right" way to worship. They are more passive, well, that's how it seems to me. They will turn up and if they know the hymns they will sing them, if they feel comfortable with singing. There are "children-friendly" hymns at some RC Masses, but on the whole, it's take it or leave it.
It's not that individualism and consumerism is not strong in Poland, far from it, it's just that it seems to me that democracy is weaker in the RC church here, and while this and the accompanied means of worship turn some away (among other Purgatorial things), some seem quite happy to accept the hymns.
I wonder whether my desire for a perfect Mass with only hymns I like detracts from my gaining from the Mass. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be uncritical, just questioning whether this gets in the way.
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
Of course there is room for personal preferences in worship. One of the strengths of the Anglican church is that there is so much variety of worship available. I would not wish to worship in a church that has songs and choruses rather than hymns, but I am glad that there are churches where that style of worship is available.
I think criticism of aspects of the service can be a positive thing - first it shows that the congregation are awake and paying attention and second, if the clergy listen to constructive criticism, they might have a better understanding of their congregation's pastoral and spiritual needs.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Rosa Winkel
Your comments about Anglicans are interesting. The CofE is known for congregations that hold themselves back when it comes to singing, but it's never occurred to me that they do so because they disapprove in some way of the content and/or the tunes of what they're being asked to sing. That would make sense, though, since Anglicans aren't united by their theology or musical tastes, but by other things.
Methodists are well-known for a) their strong congregational singing and b) singing their theology. From this, one would assume that Methodist church leaders must be highly cautious about the songs that are used for congregational worship. And in my long experience of Methodism, they ARE quite cautious. Clearly, sticking to familiar hymns is one way of assuring that the singing is always good, and that the 'correct' theology is always being enunciated through the hymns.
Methodists today do disagree with each other about theology, but it's not the done thing to make an issue about it. The idea of refusing to sing a hymn during worship because of some theological difference doesn't feel very Methodist to me at all. If you see someone not singing in a Methodist church that's probably because they're an infrequent churchgoer, don't know the song and aren't in the habit of picking up unfamiliar tunes. It's unlikely to be for some theological or aesthetic reason.
[ 09. April 2015, 23:14: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Perhaps the Dead Horses Crappy Choruses is a tool for those who hear songs they don't like in Church and sing along and worship. It gives them a place to vent afterwards without disrupting the service.
Or it could be the repeated use of a song that is working their one last nerve.... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Our congregation has always been offered a mix of traditional and modern hymns, occasional worship songs; when someone's written one for you, you have to give it a fair go! But if I really can't bring myself to sing a line I just shut up. We do sing whole-hearedly; one voice isn't missed.
My only problem is when we get a new song/hymn and I find the tune hard to pick up; I wish the music was always available. Yes, I'm a (fading) soprano who can read music, and if it's a traditional hymn I can sing the alto and not have to strain for the high notes.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
My only problem is when we get a new song/hymn and I find the tune hard to pick up; I wish the music was always available. Yes, I'm a (fading) soprano who can read music, and if it's a traditional hymn I can sing the alto and not have to strain for the high notes.
GG
I taught myself to read music as a pre-teen by switching to alto to relieve the boredom of being in church. Between hymns I'd read the hymnal, memorizing all 5 verses of "the church's one foundation" and other hymns. There's more than one way to do church!
A music teacher friend laments the loss of written music in church because he thinks church is the primary place people learn to read music.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I have no problem with criticising the music that is used in church. However I would make two points.
1. One can become so critical that one ends up being disabled from participating in all worship. This would also be true of the liturgy, the preaching and even the flower arrangements, of course.
2. One must make sure that one is using the right criteria, and not make the make of equating "I don't much like this" with "This song is rubbish". There needs to be a more objective and considered evaluation.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As soon as the song ended the clergy person loudly proclaimed "that song is wrong, God is always with us."
We're clearly working out of some different cultural assumptions about how worship is organized. When I'm presiding, I'm always given a listing of music to be sung beforehand. There's not necessarily a sense that I have to approve it, but if there was a song with a lyric that I thought was flat out wrong, I would make sure to talk the musicians before the service about changing the song. If I somehow missed it, I would talk to whoever chose it afterwards. Letting things get to a point where you're basically arguing with each other in the context of worship is incredibly unprofessional, imnsho.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
One thing that I remember from my involvement with Anglicanism (over many years) in GB as well as through reading here for about ten years now, is that there are many people who have very precise views what they like regarding worship. I am one of them. Just last Palm Sunday, I stood and kept my mouth shut when "give my oil in my lamp" opened the Eucharist...
I note though, when I speak with RCs here, or with Orthodox, that for them, it seems to be the case that they are less concerned with the "right" way to worship.
Oh, there certainly are RCs very concerned with such things! I think you're right though, that it's less common than with CofEers at least. I would suggest the cause is the potential range of things that can be presented as regular Sunday worship in each settings. That range is so broad in the CofE, that I can quite understand people develop pretty precise ideas of what works 'for them.' Comparatively, the range is so much narrower for RCs that most people can be sure of getting what's most important to them and so don't really worry about the things that can vary.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
This of course poses the question of "Who chooses the music?" - the minister, music director or Mrs. Jones who holds the key to the choir cupboard.
And it goes on to the questions, "Who has the final say?", "Does anyone have a power of veto?" and "If so, on what grounds may it be exercised?"
[ 10. April 2015, 13:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
This of course poses the question of "Who chooses the music?" - the minister, music director or Mrs. Jones who holds the key to the choir cupboard.
And it goes on to the questions, "Who has the final say?", "Does anyone have a power of veto?" and "If so, on what grounds may it be exercised?"
I was surprised to discover that there were other answers to these questions other than "the Vicar/Priest/Minister or whoever they choose to delegate to".
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think Baptist Trainfan is right that we have to be careful lest we end up criticising anything and everything ... whether the songs, liturgy, flower arrangements, colour of someone's shirt or tie ...
However, the musical threads here aboard Ship - whether in Dead Horses or Ecclesiantics - always make me want to shout, 'No, no, it's not ALL about the songs nor is all about congregational singing - fine as that might be ...'
There is more to worship than what songs we sing or what words we use.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
This of course poses the question of "Who chooses the music?" - the minister, music director or Mrs. Jones who holds the key to the choir cupboard.
And it goes on to the questions, "Who has the final say?", "Does anyone have a power of veto?" and "If so, on what grounds may it be exercised?"
We have a worship committee to choose the hymns. It comprises of the director of music, a retired professor of music,a former churchwarded, the vicar - they all hold degrees in music - and me (with the vicar as theologians).
The vicar has the final say but we rarely disagree.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
There have long been specialist courses in music for the church - some run by the Royal College and Royal Academy, others as part of a B.Mus. at variosu institutions, plus things like certain sections of the examination for FRCO Chm, etc, etc, etc.
And some of us who have benefited from studying on such courses don't hang up our hats but continue to study and explore new music.
That is why we sometimes feel less than sanguine at the attitude towards music in church on the part of some clergy.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
This of course poses the question of "Who chooses the music?" - the minister, music director or Mrs. Jones who holds the key to the choir cupboard.
And it goes on to the questions, "Who has the final say?", "Does anyone have a power of veto?" and "If so, on what grounds may it be exercised?"
Myself, and a group of two or three musicians. We meet to talk about the music. If I said "absolutely not!" about something, then I would get my way. But it's never happened.
Sometimes we do well. Sometimes we don't. It's not a science. We always have to remember that we are not choosing hymns and songs for our own pleasure. That means that we sometimes choose stuff we don't really like, but we know most of the congregation do. So, yes, we DO occasionally have "Shine, Jesus, Shine". It's the price we pay for being servants rather than masters.
The only time I've ever had a difficulty with the music was in a previous parish, when the Director of Music insisted on choosing all the hymns without any discussion or collaboration. Never again!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I have the final say, though I have delegated decisions on music to my music director. I'm very fortunate not only in that she is competent, but also that she and I are in agreement concerning the liturgy and how the music fits into it.
I have asked that hymns be removed exactly twice, both times due to what I consider poor theology : "Once to every man and nation" and "Sing praise to God, who spoke through man".
There are lots of hymns that I dislike because I think the tune is dull, or whatever. But I don't ask for them to be removed because those are issues of personal taste, not of appropriateness for the liturgy.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
We always have to remember that we are not choosing hymns and songs for our own pleasure. That means that we sometimes choose stuff we don't really like, but we know most of the congregation do. ... It's the price we pay for being servants rather than masters.
Sadly, not everyone takes such a broad view.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
As soon as the song ended the clergy person loudly proclaimed "that song is wrong, God is always with us."
We're clearly working out of some different cultural assumptions about how worship is organized.
Every church I've been in where I've paid attention to this aspect, the music director decides on the music and informs the secretary on time for the bulletin. The clergy might ask for a specific hymn on rare occasion, but in general the attitude has been "I don't know anything about music, and I have enough to do, I am not getting involved in the music!"
One clergy person did object after about 5 months to the songs all being "I worship", none "we worship." Music head said "there is no such thing as 'we worship' - all true worship is individual." Neither side would budge, so he quit, leaving the clergy Thursday evening with no music leader for Sunday morning, so the nearest person who plays guitar was grabbed. Which actually is how the guy who left was selected - previous music leader gave a month notice, clergy appointed a guy who had recently showed up with a guitar. Obviously there was no discussion of music theology, or there wouldn't have been a sudden Thursday night argument and departure.
I was struck by how carefully the interim clergy system works to find a replacement who is a good fit and meanwhile keep things going somewhat smoothly, vs the "grab someone fast we need music Sunday" chaotic system for replacing music leaders. But when I fussed at my piano teacher he shrugged and said people think music just happens, that no thought is needed.
That piano teacher is now the "grab someone fast" music director at a church. They got lucky in who they grabbed, he is a decent church music selector.
Maybe we need an interim system for music leaders?
If music is important, and music selection not automatic or obvious (especially when congregations move away from the denomination's hymn book), or if selecting a good music director and understanding what to reasonably expect is not easy (one local church is on it's 5th music director in 5 years, they keep firing the excellent musicians with significant church music experience people they hire), maybe denominations need to help?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
One thing that I remember from my involvement with Anglicanism (over many years) in GB as well as through reading here for about ten years now, is that there are many people who have very precise views what they like regarding worship. I am one of them. Just last Palm Sunday, I stood and kept my mouth shut when "give my oil in my lamp" opened the Eucharist...
I note though, when I speak with RCs here, or with Orthodox, that for them, it seems to be the case that they are less concerned with the "right" way to worship.
Oh, there certainly are RCs very concerned with such things! I think you're right though, that it's less common than with CofEers at least. I would suggest the cause is the potential range of things that can be presented as regular Sunday worship in each settings. That range is so broad in the CofE, that I can quite understand people develop pretty precise ideas of what works 'for them.' Comparatively, the range is so much narrower for RCs that most people can be sure of getting what's most important to them and so don't really worry about the things that can vary.
I meant RCs in Poland.
I didn't see a big difference between Anglican and RC singing in GB, and many RCs I knew in GB were very interested in church music.
I was trying to address the benefits of being more passive about ones liking or not of music in church.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
... I have asked that hymns be removed exactly twice, both times due to what I consider poor theology : "Once to every man and nation" and "Sing praise to God, who spoke through man". ...
Never encountered the latter, but I agree about "Once to every man and nation". I haven't heard it sung since the early sixties, but it is so bad that it has stuck in my memory ever since. Two very serious theological errors and what I think is the most repulsive piece of imagery I've ever encountered in a hymn - and all three in one hymn. Wow.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I have a hard time with I vow to thee my country, and I have managed to persuade our current PinC that it really isn't suitable for any service (with the possible exception of the civic outing on Remembrance Sunday) and that there are better things for that occasion as well.
But it is incredibly popular for weddings - partly because the late Princess of Wales chose it in 1982 (what was the Dean of St Paul's thinking?) and because the theme for the Rugby World Cup The World in Union uses the same bit of Holst.
I have managed to hold firm against In Christ alone.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have no problem with criticising the music that is used in church. However I would make two points.
1. One can become so critical that one ends up being disabled from participating in all worship. This would also be true of the liturgy, the preaching and even the flower arrangements, of course.
2. One must make sure that one is using the right criteria, and not make the make of equating "I don't much like this" with "This song is rubbish". There needs to be a more objective and considered evaluation.
I think these are two very good points. There are some modern songs with pretty good words, but, in my view, poorly written tunes for congregational participation, and so I find myself sighing when they crop up and feeling musically irritated - but still in terms of message and theology, quite sound, so I don't really have a right to assume offence and withdraw my own participation in communal worship.
Similarly, some hymn tunes are snoresville, but the words are fab. It can happen the other way, too. There are some worship songs and hymns with stonking tunes, but very narrow theologically - and it's hard to resist 'enjoying' these while hating the message!
So I suppose it's up to me to be a grown up worshipper and make the effort to abstract what is edifying about the words and music aspect of worship, and respond to the material provided, responsibly and open-heartedly.
More generally, too, it's great to think that our experience of God - communally - is actually so wide, to be represented so broadly in such varying music. An important reminder that God is not so easily pigeon-holed, even musically.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I have asked that hymns be removed exactly twice, both times due to what I consider poor theology : "Once to every man and nation" and "Sing praise to God, who spoke through man".
It may be of interest to note that the hymn 'God Is Working His Purpose Out' by Arthur Campbell Ainger is said to have been written as a direct refutation of 'Once to Every'. It's found in the TEC Hymnal 1982 (and was also in the 1940), set to the splendid tune 'Purpose' by Martin Shaw, which IIRC was written specifically for it.
In English Hymnal and HA&M it is set to 'Benson,' which IMNSHO is decidedly inferior. (YVMV)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have no problem with criticising the music that is used in church. However I would make two points.
1. One can become so critical that one ends up being disabled from participating in all worship. This would also be true of the liturgy, the preaching and even the flower arrangements, of course.
2. One must make sure that one is using the right criteria, and not make the make of equating "I don't much like this" with "This song is rubbish". There needs to be a more objective and considered evaluation.
I worked for some years as a performing arts critic for a daily newspaper, frequently covering as many as 4 shows a week, so the 'critic' lobes of my brain got a thorough workout. It took a lot of work to 'turn off the critic' when sitting in a performance I wasn't reviewing, and likewise when sitting in church!
I would sometimes get home with a bulletin covered with scribbled notes.
Eventually I managed to attain a sort of two-track brain -- not schizoid, but something alternative, I guess. Maybe more like Mystery Worshipping?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I have asked that hymns be removed exactly twice, both times due to what I consider poor theology : "Once to every man and nation" and "Sing praise to God, who spoke through man".
It may be of interest to note that the hymn 'God Is Working His Purpose Out' by Arthur Campbell Ainger is said to have been written as a direct refutation of 'Once to Every'. It's found in the TEC Hymnal 1982 (and was also in the 1940), set to the splendid tune 'Purpose' by Martin Shaw, which IIRC was written specifically for it.
In English Hymnal and HA&M it is set to 'Benson,' which IMNSHO is decidedly inferior. (YVMV)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I have asked that hymns be removed exactly twice, both times due to what I consider poor theology : "Once to every man and nation" and "Sing praise to God, who spoke through man".
It may be of interest to note that the hymn 'God Is Working His Purpose Out' by Arthur Campbell Ainger is said to have been written as a direct refutation of 'Once to Every'. It's found in the TEC Hymnal 1982 (and was also in the 1940), set to the splendid tune 'Purpose' by Martin Shaw, which IIRC was written specifically for it.
In English Hymnal and HA&M it is set to 'Benson,' which IMNSHO is decidedly inferior. (YVMV)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Maybe we need an interim system for music leaders?
My shack has had "interim music directors" and "interim organists" and in all cases after about a year the "interim" has been dropped...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
It may be of interest to note that the hymn 'God Is Working His Purpose Out' by Arthur Campbell Ainger is said to have been written as a direct refutation of 'Once to Every'. It's found in the TEC Hymnal 1982 (and was also in the 1940), set to the splendid tune 'Purpose' by Martin Shaw, which IIRC was written specifically for it.
In English Hymnal and HA&M it is set to 'Benson,' which IMNSHO is decidedly inferior. (YVMV)
Interesting, but I'd be surprised if that's the case. Anger was a master at Eton in the late C19. According to Hymnary.org, he wrote his hymn in 1894. Once to every man and nation isn't all that well known here. But Hymnary.org (again) seems to imply that it didn't get turned into a hymn until the early C20.
The process of checking this, though, has confirmed how thoroughly bad Once to every man and nation is as a hymn. I don't think it normally appears in any modern hymnals we use over here, but it is difficult to see how it ever got into any in the past.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
I sing everything I'm able to.* Church isn't a democracy and if it's what the duly appointed minister has selected for singing, it's what we're singing.
It may be what *we* are singing, and if I can hold my nose (mentally) and get through it, I do. But if my unpremeditated impulsive reaction to the words is "huh? That's not true!" then I stop singing mid line.
Happened once when I was in choir, the song selector chose a song that ended with the lament "we walk the way alone." I startled and said out loud, involuntarily, "what?" instead of finishing the line. We had just done a baptism with clear verbal assurance "you are never alone." The mother of the baby was in tears at the song taking away the baptismal assurance.
As soon as the song ended the clergy person loudly proclaimed "that song is wrong, God is always with us."
I am unapologetic about failing to sing the dismal and untrue enduing of the song. Even on camera as a choir member!
I am not responsible for what songs the hymn-chooser landed on; but I am responsible to be honest before God in what I say and sing to or about God. "Just following orders, God" doesn't cut it. Marginal songs, fine, but flat out deadly anti-God's love WRONG - no!
I've never heard of that hymn so I looked it up.
Is it this one?:
quote:
O God our mighty Father,
O bright immortal One,
Secure within thy mercy
We walk this way alone.
If it is, then might I offer the thought that maybe, just maybe, it's been wrongly interpreted?
It seems to me that it does not mean "We walk this way alone, unaccompanied," but rather that "We walk this way only, and not another way."
Just a thought.
Often, in singing Victorian words we need to look at the original meaning. Another example would be 'without a city wall' - I mean, since when would any green hill ever have a city wall for it to be specified that this particular green hill didn't have one? And then you realise that 'without' meant 'outside'.
Alone therefore doesn't just mean 'in a solitary manner' but 'uniquely, exclusively.'
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I suppose it's from an adult experience of smallish (up to 100 at most) Presy congregations without choirs or professional musicians that I would never have dreamed that anyone but the minister/worship leader would choose the hymns, they being so integrated with the theme/message of the service.
On another thread Zappa said it better than I have: quote:
I can't speak for others but I very carefully select hymns (now I have seized the role) that enhance and weave in and out of the themes explored in breaking open the word and in collects, propers, sermon and so on....
The critical issue is that the hymns be the twice prayed prayers they can be when woven tightly into the themes of the day.
I remember once or twice the then minister, younger than me and not very musically literate, asked for help, but I think it was more about whether the tune was well known or something like that.
And sometimes, other things being equal, the chosen hymn might be a favourite of a well-loved member of a congregation.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Often, in singing Victorian words we need to look at the original meaning. Another example would be 'without a city wall' - I mean, since when would any green hill ever have a city wall for it to be specified that this particular green hill didn't have one? And then you realise that 'without' meant 'outside'.
As in "the Parish Church of St. Botolph without Bishopsgate". In Scotland you might just want to put "outwith".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Like Mudfrog quote:
Just a thought.
Often, in singing Victorian words we need to look at the original meaning. Another example would be 'without a city wall' - I mean, since when would any green hill ever have a city wall for it to be specified that this particular green hill didn't have one? And then you realise that 'without' meant 'outside'.
I was puzzled by that one, at the age of about seven.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I suppose it's from an adult experience of smallish (up to 100 at most) Presy congregations without choirs or professional musicians that I would never have dreamed that anyone but the minister/worship leader would choose the hymns, they being so integrated with the theme/message of the service.
GG
In Anglican churches it varies a lot. In small places, it, too, can often come down to just the minister doing the choosing (sometimes even the accompanying!) of the music. And many churches may not have organists/musicians with the skills and knowledge to know the liturgy and lectionary well enough to make good choices. 'When I survey the Wondrous Cross' and 'There is a green hill' as Easter morning hymns - not great, and a particularly sad memory of my own! But in this case the organist had a very limited repertoire, and suggestions as alternatives was just not a possibility.
However, on the plus side, when you get an organist/choir director who really knows their stuff, it's a delight to let just let them get on with their job. Lots of great resources, too, to assist in the correct choosing of appropriate hymns.
I do think, personally, it is good for a minister to have a fair head on their shoulders musically, when it comes to liturgy/lectionary demands, however. Even if they're not musical themselves. At college, I remember at least two or three Methodist ordinands, training as deacons at that time, refusing to attend the music seminars. 'I'm not musical, can't sing a note, know nothing about the business - gonna leave it up to whoever's playing the keyboard' was the philosophy. Now admittedly, in some areas of Methodism there is a lot of wandering around the circuit, where being in a position to direct a musician what music to play would be problematic to say the least; but for those ordinands destined to be rooted within particular congregations, I would've thought at least a nodding acquaintance with how music choice can enhance a congregation's understanding of church and scripture themes was pretty central.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Happened once when I was in choir, the song selector chose a song that ended with the lament "we walk the way alone." I startled and said out loud, involuntarily, "what?" instead of finishing the line. We had just done a baptism with clear verbal assurance "you are never alone." The mother of the baby was in tears at the song taking away the baptismal assurance.
As soon as the song ended the clergy person loudly proclaimed "that song is wrong, God is always with us."
I've never heard of that hymn so I looked it up.
Is it this one?:
quote:
O God our mighty Father,
O bright immortal One,
Secure within thy mercy
We walk this way alone.
If it is, then might I offer the thought that maybe, just maybe, it's been wrongly interpreted?
It seems to me that it does not mean "We walk this way alone, unaccompanied," but rather that "We walk this way only, and not another way."
No, a (bleached) Black spiritual, lonesome valley. You must walk this lonesome valley,you must walk it by yourself, oh nobody else can walk it for you, you walk it by yourself.
The choir had just sung a revised version that assured "you're never alone in this dark valley, Jesus walks right by your side" (or something like that). The switch from that assurance to lamenting being alone had strong negative impact on several of us!
There is a sense in which no one can live your life/do your work instead of you, and the song could probably be presented that way, but the *preacher* proclaimed "that song is wrong, you are never alone" so it came across to him as saying God is not with us.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
'Once to every man and nation' was in my Public (U.S. = Private) School hymn book in the 1950s. We used to sing 'By the light of burning martyrs/ Christ thy bleeding feet we track' with particular relish.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Looking at who wrote it (one of the Lowells) and when the words were originally written (1845), I assume that it's a commentary on the slavery debates of the period, and their wider implications for the way that the USA was going to develop. Am I right? If so, can't it be seen as a period piece?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
As abolitionist polemic, it's fine. As a hymn to be sung in the context of common prayer, it sucks.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
According to Cyberhymnal, it was written to protest the US's war with Mexico.
But it made it into the 1938 Canadian hymnbook all the same (only slightly altered). I too remember singing, 'by the light of burning martyrs' and being somewhat appalled when (quite young) I worked out what was meant by that.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Mexican War? Ah yes, of course- date makes sense.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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