|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Corpus Christi Crucifer Tunicles
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
At my parish, the crucifer is instructed to wear a green tunicle on Corpus Christi. This custom is encoded in the present parish customary which dates to 1999. I imagine the custom wasn't created out of whole cloth then and predates that year. The crucifer vests in a tunicle only on a few particularly high feasts, and on those other days he or she always wears the color of the mass.
Does anybody have any idea why the crucifer might be wearing a green tunicle on Corpus Christi? The only thing I can think of is that on those other days, the crucifer is actually wearing the color of the season, not the mass. For instance, on Christmas, he or she is wearing the color of Christmastide, white, on Easter it's Paschaltide, white, etc. This seems a little thin and nonsensical to me, but nobody's been able to offer an explanation. Any ideas?
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
No idea why IRL -- but herewith a possible scenario.
- Year 1: crucifer rushes in (almost) late, can't find tunicle. Rector/Sacristan/Altar Guild Dragon Lady/Somebody says 'Here, wear this!'
- Year 2: crucifer (same one as last year) says 'Well, I wore the green one last year.'
- Year 3 (and thereafter in saecula saeculorum Everyone says 'That's the way we've always done it!'
Case closed.
It may not have happened like that, but I wouldn't be surprised.
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
Unless the crucifer is an ordained subdeacon--which is not possible nowadays, except in the few traditional orders overseen by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, such as the FSSP and ICRSS--or a higher major order, he should not be vested in a tunicle.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
Anglican churches continue to vest crucifers and acolytes in tunicles. The custom was widespread, but it has been suppressed, I believe, in other places. But I couldn't comment with any authority about that.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Unless the crucifer is an ordained subdeacon--which is not possible nowadays, except in the few traditional orders overseen by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, such as the FSSP and ICRSS--or a higher major order, he should not be vested in a tunicle.
Anglicans allow Readers/Licensed Lay Ministers to wear tunicles - dalmatics even.
If ther weren't allowed, we'd have a lot of beautiful old high mass sets languishing in the sacristy.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
I've worn, years ago, a tunicle when occasionally acting as subdeacon (in the CofE) and I'm not even a Reader. I've known other people in other parishes to do it too.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I've worn, years ago, a tunicle when occasionally acting as subdeacon (in the CofE) and I'm not even a Reader. I've known other people in other parishes to do it too.
'Lay subdeacons' used to be very common - my last two churches used them every Sunday.
I quite like the deliberate blurring of lay and ordained.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Me too. Are they less common now, then? And if so, is this because the three-person high mass has gone out of use, or because rules have been changed? Haven't moved in circles high enough to use subdeacons for some years now.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I think it's down to three-person high mass being less common. In my church (three-person high mass every Sunday, often an entirely female team too) a lay subdeacon is quite normal, and it has been in all the churches I've been to that has a three-person high mass.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I think it's down to three-person high mass being less common.
Yes, for 2 reasons:
My previous 2 churches used to have a high mass every Sunday but both have followed modern Roman usage and concelebrate instead.
In my current benefice we have 2 churches and can't get the staff for 3 sacred ministers so we only have them at a joint service which is usually a major fesitval - and that is going into misuse because people forget as they are out of the habit.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
We have three scared monsters at Mass every week. The Subdeacon will usually be one of the longer standing servers and the role of Deacon is shared between the clergy and the two Readers. I serve as Deacon about once a month.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
We always have high mass with 3 sacred ministers every Sunday and major feast. To my knowledge the sub-deacon (in tunicle) is never ordained, but the deacon of the mass always is. The deacon of the mass is either one of the priests or our deacon herself. If we don't have an ordained person to deacon the mass (it happens, rarely, in summer), we would just have a sung mass.
I've never heard of a lay person serving as the deacon of the mass. What does he or she do? He or she wouldn't read the gospel or set the table since those would be the priest's prerogative in the absence of a deacon. Does the lay person serving as the deacon just sort of go through the ceremonial ups and downs at the altar?
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I've never heard of a lay person serving as the deacon of the mass. What does he or she do? He or she wouldn't read the gospel or set the table since those would be the priest's prerogative in the absence of a deacon. Does the lay person serving as the deacon just sort of go through the ceremonial ups and downs at the altar?
It's more common in the C of E than in the States. And yes, the non-diaconal deacon does read the gospel, set the table, and all the rest of it.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
W
I've never heard of a lay person serving as the deacon of the mass. What does he or she do? He or she wouldn't read the gospel or set the table since those would be the priest's prerogative in the absence of a deacon. Does the lay person serving as the deacon just sort of go through the ceremonial ups and downs at the altar?
When I first saw this nearly fifty years ago the PP assured me that he had the Bishop of Oxford's permission to celebrate high mass with two unordained but authorised subdeacons. As I recall it the "deacon" did everything a deacon does, but didn't wear a stole.
[ 28. May 2015, 16:28: Message edited by: american piskie ]
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I've never heard of a lay person serving as the deacon of the mass. What does he or she do? He or she wouldn't read the gospel or set the table since those would be the priest's prerogative in the absence of a deacon. Does the lay person serving as the deacon just sort of go through the ceremonial ups and downs at the altar?
It's more common in the C of E than in the States. And yes, the non-diaconal deacon does read the gospel, set the table, and all the rest of it.
All of that as well as inviting the congregation to confess, inviting them to share the Peace and saying/singing the dismissal.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Well yeah, that was "the rest of it." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
Is it weird that I wouldn't be comfortable with any of that?
On a separate note, I wonder why American and English praxis diverged so much on this? Maybe because the American prayer book lays out more explicitly that these are diaconal duties, and it explicitly says in the absence of a deacon they are to be performed by a priest?
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
I don't think it's weird; I feel exactly the same way. Of course, my jurisdiction doesn't allow lay Eucharistic ministers either, so I'm aware that my level of scrupulousness on this issue is above average.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Is it weird that I wouldn't be comfortable with any of that?
What is it that makes you uncomfortable? Why is any of what I described any different from an authorised lay person officiating at Matins or Evensong?
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
... I've never heard of a lay person serving as the deacon of the mass. What does he or she do? He or she wouldn't read the gospel or set the table since those would be the priest's prerogative in the absence of a deacon. ...
This may shock you- it doesn't me - but in the CofE there is no requirement that only a priest or a deacon may read the gospel, unless, possibly, the service is strictly 1662. However, once you cross the water into Wales, I seem to remember that there is.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
Enoch - just to clarify. From the 1984 BCP there are General Directions re this
(5) states that 'when a Deacon is present he should read the Gospel.....'
(6)A Deacon or Reader may say such parts of the service to the end of the Intercession.....'
(7)'.....At the discretion of the Parish Priest lay persons may read the Old Testament Lesson and Epistle and lead the Intercession'
So I don't think we vary that much from the C-of-E in practice at any rate
It's true that in many parishes 1984 has been sadly superseded by the modern rite of 2004 but I don't think there are any serious differences there ( although from a personal POV I do miss the 1984 BCP!
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
|
Posted
We're a three-person high mass shack, with the deacon and subdeacon roles being normally taken by lay people.
Tunicles/dalmatics when we have them (gold and red only, with a gold tunicles for the crucifer too, otherwise apparelled amices.
--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
|
Posted
Despite all my years here, "tunicles" still makes me giggle like it's something dirty.
--------------------
Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
It's true that in many parishes 1984 has been sadly superseded by the modern rite of 2004 but I don't think there are any serious differences there ( although from a personal POV I do miss the 1984 BCP!
You miss the bizarre hybrid that is the 1984 book? Semi modernised, more formal to the priest than God?
On tunicles, my old place had 3 sacred ministers every week and on many festivals. Tunicles were sometimes worn by the crucifer on certain feasts, but had to come from a lesser set than the one worn by the 3 sacred ministers. There were times when I was crucifer on occasions which had had vested crucifer in previous years but a lesser high mass set was used so there wasn't a lesser tunicle.
I wonder if the use of green started like this.
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
We have a deacon most weeks (my fellow-Reader or I), duly vested in alb and dalmatic. On High Days and major Holydays, one of us also acts as sub-deacon, vested in alb and tunicle. We are blessed with full sets of High Mass vestments in all colours except rose-pink - we even have a full black/silver set, and a lovely azure blue set for Marian festivals!
My own feeling is that we ought to complete the tally with a full rose-pink set, and also a saffron yellow set for feasts of confessors.....
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Ian J (who is not bothered about RCC rules, cos we're C of E, and enjoy 'local custom'!)
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ian J (who is not bothered about RCC rules, cos we're C of E, and enjoy 'local custom'!)
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
|
Posted
Our local use (CofE) also provides for vested lay deacon and sub-deacon most Sundays. If on occasion we have an ordained deacon or spare priest to hand, they will introduce the Confession and Peace instead of the President. Otherwise, it's much as others have said: lay deacons read the Gospel, set the table and announce the final dismissal. And fill up behind a 15-foot altar. No tunicled crucifer, though. I wonder ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
It's true that in many parishes 1984 has been sadly superseded by the modern rite of 2004 but I don't think there are any serious differences there ( although from a personal POV I do miss the 1984 BCP!
You miss the bizarre hybrid that is the 1984 book? Semi modernised, more formal to the priest than God?
On tunicles, my old place had 3 sacred ministers every week and on many festivals. Tunicles were sometimes worn by the crucifer on certain feasts, but had to come from a lesser set than the one worn by the 3 sacred ministers. There were times when I was crucifer on occasions which had had vested crucifer in previous years but a lesser high mass set was used so there wasn't a lesser tunicle.
I wonder if the use of green started like this.
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Tangent: dreadful book, the 1984 BCP. Tried to use it for daily prayer when I still hadn't unpacked my 1662. All but impossible to know whether you actually had the right readings and pasalms for the day, so bizarrely constructed was the table of readings.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Despite all my years here, "tunicles" still makes me giggle like it's something dirty.
Much the same as the word 'maniple' does to others, I am sure. My first lecturer in liturgy ( a member of the Liturgical Board of the Church of Wales and lecturer here and there) used to grimace whenever someone mention the word. So much so in fact that some wit in our class formally promulgated The Maniple Society and invited her to be its first patron. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Despite all my years here, "tunicles" still makes me giggle like it's something dirty.
Much the same as the word 'maniple' does to others, I am sure. My first lecturer in liturgy ( a member of the Liturgical Board of the Church of Wales and lecturer here and there) used to grimace whenever someone mention the word. So much so in fact that some wit in our class formally promulgated The Maniple Society and invited her to be its first patron.
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Tangent: dreadful book, the 1984 BCP. Tried to use it for daily prayer when I still hadn't unpacked my 1662. All but impossible to know whether you actually had the right readings and pasalms for the day, so bizarrely constructed was the table of readings.
I completely disagree with you both and I suspect if you had a vote on it 1984 would win by a comfortable margin
At least we get 1662 for Choral Evensong. That is some consolation.....
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We have a deacon most weeks (my fellow-Reader or I), duly vested in alb and dalmatic. On High Days and major Holydays, one of us also acts as sub-deacon, vested in alb and tunicle. We are blessed with full sets of High Mass vestments in all colours except rose-pink - we even have a full black/silver set, and a lovely azure blue set for Marian festivals!
My own feeling is that we ought to complete the tally with a full rose-pink set, and also a saffron yellow set for feasts of confessors.....
Ian J (who is not bothered about RCC rules, cos we're C of E, and enjoy 'local custom'!)
Azure and saffron were both historically used for St Mary Magdalene, whose feast is not far away...
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
|
Posted
I half remember that The Parson's handbook says that the parish clerk acts as crucifer and always wears a tunicle. I wonder whether the parish used to rigorously follow that practice, but now tunicles are only worn on 'special occasions'
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]
On tunicles, my old place had 3 sacred ministers every week and on many festivals. Tunicles were sometimes worn by the crucifer on certain feasts, but had to come from a lesser set than the one worn by the 3 sacred ministers. There were times when I was crucifer on occasions which had had vested crucifer in previous years but a lesser high mass set was used so there wasn't a lesser tunicle.
I wonder if the use of green started like this.
Carys
So that's the answer that someone off-handedly gave to me at the parish, but it's patently not true. We have scads of tunicles in all colors, both ones belonging to high mass sets and "loose tunicles." On the other "tunicled crucifer days" we manage to wear an appropriately colored tunicle.
I just going to just put this down to that time-honored principle, "local custom."
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
These recollections of folks in tunicles brings to mind a quote from Fr. Forrest's poem titled (IIRC) 'What's the Use?', the quote being
...and in case you shouldn't know,
There are lots of tunicled assistants
Who will tell you where to go.
I think he was having a dig at the Blessed Percy.
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
