Ship of Fools: Gathering for Worship

Thread: Gathering for Worship Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Mr Cheesy's comments on this MW report raised an issue which I thought warranted a thread of its own.

quote:
How would you describe the pre-service atmosphere?
A nightmare. It was like a social affair with everyone, including the clergy, loudly engaging others in chatter. I gave my best evil eye stare to two older gentlemen and their wives about five feet across from me, but to no avail – they continued to talk very loudly and distracted me from engaging in any real pre-worship prayer. Even the clergy could be heard from the back from the nave making small-talk with congregants.

We have talked in the past in our Presbyterian congregation about the needs of people arriving for worship on Sunday morning. Some hope for quiet to compose themselves prayerfully, while others find joy in greeting their fellow members. And it seems there is no way that joyful greeting and quiet meditation can co-exist.
Maybe our culture has changed over the years. We've turned into a large and loving family who share greetings with much laughter, settle down for notices, and are then called into a period of silence to prepare ourselves for worship. And so it goes.
Have others wrestled with this dichotomy? And how has it resolved itself?

GG

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Some hope for quiet to compose themselves prayerfully, while others find joy in greeting their fellow members. And it seems there is no way that joyful greeting and quiet meditation can co-exist.

Hey, yeah, there is. It's called (1) do it in the sanctuary; (2) do it in the parish hall or outside.

[ 28. June 2015, 03:08: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Some hope for quiet to compose themselves prayerfully, while others find joy in greeting their fellow members. And it seems there is no way that joyful greeting and quiet meditation can co-exist.
Hey, yeah, there is. It's called (1) do it in the sanctuary; (2) do it in the parish hall or outside.

Depends on the layout of your buildings. Our parish hall is a separate building round the back; for others it is sometimes in the next street! In our church, you come straight off the car park into the sanctuary. Yes, you can chat outside - but only if folk wait there before going inside, and only if the weather is fine.

FWIW I can't imagine the Christians in first-century Jerusalem or Corinth quietly reflecting before the service, I'd guess that their culture was much noisier.

One practical point: insisting on (complete) quiet for a reasonably prolonged period can be very pressurising on parents with young children.

In our church I welcome people to worship, then say that we will have a few moments of quiet to collect our thoughts. Seems to satisfy most folk.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

In our case, no parish hall, and when we did have one it was 5 minutes walk away, and not a place for pre- or post-service gathering. Also there is no 'audio separation' between the entrance space and the main worship space so the welcome of arrivals/ visitors is audible to all - especially if either they or the welcomer is hard of hearing. We do try for a few moments of quiet just before the service begins, but I'm beginning to wonder if we need to do it at the beginning of the service. That said, some who want 'quiet' at the beginning if the service seem to achieve it at a personal level, even when others are greeting/ talking.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
Have others wrestled with this dichotomy? And how has it resolved itself?

Yes. In many (Presbyterian) churches in my experience, the prelude is the signal to move from visiting to quiet. In our place people visit (though usually not too loudly), then chimes are rung and people get quiet, welcome is given and announcements are made, then we sit in quiet—and in prayer for those who wish to do so—during the prelude.

What I describe is, of course, in some ways a denominational ethos sort of thing. Something like it is common in Presbyterian churches, where many would view the pre-worship conversation as preparation for worship—a sort of re-forming the community. In Episcopal churches in these parts, on the other hand, any but the briefest and most hushed conversations prior to worship are rare indeed, and they are clearly inhibited by the sight of people kneeling to pray (and the sound of kneelers being lowered) as soon as people take their seats.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Silence is rarely kept before services in churches I attend, even latterly in a Cathedral (which is a lot noisier before it begins than I was expecting). I have a thick skin and if I want to be silent, I will be silent no matter what is going on around me. As long as people are being respectful and leaving alone people who want to be left alone, I don't really see that absolute silence can be enforced or is necessary.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

While I generally think silence (or sitting quietly listening to organ music) is great for both the beginning and end of a service, I do have a niggle of concern about how it must feel to be a newcomer, thinking you are being ignored by everyone.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Despite being a pompous anglo-catholic who would like everyone to be reciting Quicunque Vult in Latin in silence before the Mass (and drinking champagne and discussing rugby after) I know I live in a world where that no longer conveys the encounter with the resurrected Lord of which Eucharistic liturgy is a vehicle.

Therefore I'd love a pre-Introit buzz. In reality at my patch there's more likely to be frosty stares and the occasional snore from someone who fell asleep when Victoria ceased to be Queen.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
While I generally think silence (or sitting quietly listening to organ music) is great for both the beginning and end of a service, I do have a niggle of concern about how it must feel to be a newcomer, thinking you are being ignored by everyone.

Or being ignored by everyone around you chatting happily to the people they know and not to you?
Arguments both ways but following my usual rule when I can't make my mind up, I say 'I agree with Zappa'.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What I describe is, of course, in some ways a denominational ethos sort of thing. Something like it is common in Presbyterian churches, where many would view the pre-worship conversation as preparation for worship—a sort of re-forming the community. In Episcopal churches in these parts, on the other hand, any but the briefest and most hushed conversations prior to worship are rare indeed.

In turn, this may reflect a view of worship as a "communal" viz-a-viz an "individual" activity. In a day when individualism seems to be the order of the day, perhaps we should encourage the communal aspects.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
'I agree with Zappa'.

Good luck with that. I fear he sits so firmly on the fence he has .... oh, never mind.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Well, personally I prefer adhering to the old saw : "Before the service, talk to God; during the service, let God speak to you; after the service, talk to each other." And this is what we try to promote in my parish.

Having said that, of course it won't be the same way everywhere. Some church communities are going to be chatty before the service, and visitors will just have to deal. When that's clearly part of the community's practice, it seems a bit presumptuous for a visitor to give socializers the stink-eye; if even the clergy are doing it, then the campaign for quiet is going to be a lost cause.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

it is not so much the pre service chat that disturbs me, but the inane gab fest that occurs at the passing of the peace. This has become a real bunfight with people rushing around trying to greet everybody, asking after their holiday or their Auntie Maud and generally upsetting my worship. This can often stretch more than 10 minutes and the organist in desperation will start to play the next hymn intro to call the troops back. Where has our sense of decorum and good manners gone?

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :

This pretty much describes our church. We really like each other....

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
it is not so much the pre service chat that disturbs me, but the inane gab fest that occurs at the passing of the peace. This has become a real bunfight with people rushing around trying to greet everybody, asking after their holiday or their Auntie Maud and generally upsetting my worship. This can often stretch more than 10 minutes and the organist in desperation will start to play the next hymn intro to call the troops back. Where has our sense of decorum and good manners gone?

Earwig O'Agen

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The vicar tries to get round the whole congregation during the sharing of the peace, while the organist tries to start, and therefore end, the next hymn as soon as possible. Sometimes he wins, and the vicar has to run back to the altar, trying to look all the time as if he is not rushing at all. The choir, who face the other way to all the congregation, see everything....

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
it is not so much the pre service chat that disturbs me, but the inane gab fest that occurs at the passing of the peace.

I quite agree. Some people seem to delight in seeing how many "scalps" they can notch up.

I also get annoyed by the fact that most people say "Peace be with you" - it's the Peace of the Lord.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

I also get annoyed by the fact that most people say "Peace be with you" - it's the Peace of the Lord.

Why should that be the phrasing?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

A. Because that's what the book says, certainly in the Anglican context and probably in others.

2. Because we are not just hoping for some kind of vague peaceful feeling to descend on the person we are addressing: we are in a sense praying that God's peace will come to them, whatever their troubles may be. This is in the context of a Christian worship service, after all.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

In the current Roman Rite, the people's exchange is ad libitum. Their exchange with the priest goes "The peace of the Lord be with you all" // "and with your Spirit." Then the deacon may introduce the people's exchange with the words "let us offer one another the sign of peace." I don't take that to prescribe that they re-use precisely the words from the priest's greeting.

Biblically, "peace be with you" is a very common greeting. It seems appropriate for use during the exchange of the sign of peace to me.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
A. Because that's what the book says, certainly in the Anglican context and probably in others.

2. Because we are not just hoping for some kind of vague peaceful feeling to descend on the person we are addressing: we are in a sense praying that God's peace will come to them, whatever their troubles may be. This is in the context of a Christian worship service, after all.

The book prescribes what the person leading worship should say. Nothing is said about what others should then say or do, it simply says

quote:
All may share a sign of peace

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Some churches have a tradition of silence in the church before worship. Others have a tradition of chat. Talkers gonna talk. Not much you can do other than ignore them.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

IME the noise levels before a service are affected by lighting levels:

church with no stained glass = normal level of conversation and general hubbub
church with partial stained glass and reasonable lighting = some conversational noise but not too loud
full stained glass and/or low lighting level = hushed tones and whispers

The only church I know of with plain glass that manages to be pretty quiet before a service has

greeters in the porch, not inside the church
prominent notices that noise before the service is not welcome
back-up notice about noise in the pews
laminated cards in each pew prominently headed "Prayers before the Service"

The exceptions are weddings and funerals: for the latter its not such a problem, for the former there are always at least 2 regular churchgoers on duty who walk the aisles and generally act as 'hushers'!

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
…I gave my best evil eye stare…

Wot!?

A guest and a reporter presuming to censure liturgical practice to one's hosts?!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I suppose some church folk would say that church isn't a set-apart experience but something that infuses all of life, and that silence, while important sometimes, isn't essential as a way of marking out worship time as separate from secular time. Some churches actually expect private church prayers to contribute to and be a part of the general hubbub before and/or during church worship.

If you're particular about these things you just have to find a church whose practices and expectations match yours.

Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :

I remember a church in my hometown that had foot-tall neon letters off to the front side. The letters spelled 'Silence'. I imagine that when they were flipped on, the congregation acted accordingly.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I look at the gathering for worship much like an extended family coming together after being apart for the week. I have no problem with people greeting each other. Often times we greet newcomers as well. I am always on the lookout for people who may not likely understand the service and will offer to sit with them or ask someone to assist them.

We especially like to greet new people at the end of the service in the narthex. A Little trick I learned: when you meet a new person in the Narthex make it a point to introduce them to at least three other people. Visitors tell us that this gesture makes them feel very welcomed.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose some church folk would say that church isn't a set-apart experience but something that infuses all of life, and that silence, while important sometimes, isn't essential as a way of marking out worship time as separate from secular time......

I see what you mean. But I think that silence, somewhere, sometime, is essential, and there aren't many places that your average C21 urban westerner can find it, regularly, except in church.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

You can sometimes hear it broadcast on Radio 3 ... admittedly, not for great lengths of time.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose some church folk would say that church isn't a set-apart experience but something that infuses all of life, and that silence, while important sometimes, isn't essential as a way of marking out worship time as separate from secular time......
I see what you mean. But I think that silence, somewhere, sometime, is essential, and there aren't many places that your average C21 urban westerner can find it, regularly, except in church.

I think if you really want silence, it's best to be alone. Getting together with a bunch of people, especially a group of people who belong to a very wordy religious culture like ours, isn't the best idea.

I do appreciate opportunities for private prayer in church, but this doesn't necessarily require silence. Calming music can help. Silence, though, seems to be difficult for churches to achieve. Even the clergy are nervous about keeping things silent for more than half a minute. Words, words, words - that's what we do.

It occurred to me the other day that there should be more training and provision at grassroots level for Christian meditation. Most providers are coming from a Buddhist or secular perspective, but many Christians would be a bit put off by that, since they connect quiet spirituality with their own faith tradition, rather than being something entirely separate.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You can sometimes hear it broadcast on Radio 3 ... admittedly, not for great lengths of time.

Yes- have they had John Cage as composer of the week, do you know? [Smile]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think if you really want silence, it's best to be alone. Getting together with a bunch of people, especially a group of people who belong to a very wordy religious culture like ours, isn't the best idea.

I do appreciate opportunities for private prayer in church, but this doesn't necessarily require silence. Calming music can help. Silence, though, seems to be difficult for churches to achieve. Even the clergy are nervous about keeping things silent for more than half a minute. Words, words, words - that's what we do.

Which, in my mind, is precisely why we need more silence in church. It can be uncomfortable, especially for those not used to it, but corporate silence can be very powerful. We lose the ability to worship together in silence at our peril; it's something the church should encourage rather than avoid.

We have silence at least twice during our typical service—after the corporate confession for individual confession and during the prayers of the people. Granted neither time is particularly long, maybe a minute each, though they have gradually gotten longer. Sometimes (I wish more regularly), there is silence after the sermon.

It's a start.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I had missed this thread, but the vicar and some leaders at our church have made a stab at encouraging silence during the organ prelude. (We are a talkative bunch. [Smile]

) The only problem seems to be that the vicar and the leaders are themselves repeat offenders among the chatterers. I am usually mildly amused by this but I do get a bit annoyed when suddenly they remember silence is important and shush others.

Me, I tend to remain silent in the ten minutes pre-liturgy, but I don't try to be a silence enforcer. Stern looks and shushes spoil my contemplation more than noise.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

When I go up to the cathedral, I am often amazed that the worst chatterers during the organ voluntary are the Cathedral staff (including musicians) themselves. It doesn't bother me, as such, but it is interesting to notice.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I agree about silence in worship. IME some clergy are scared of a silence, fearing a congregation will think something has gone wrong or the celebrant has lost his place (or lost the plot!).

When I arrived at my current place it was the norm for the organist to 'fill-in' between the gospel and the sermon (while the preacher went to the pulpit), at the end of the Offertory if necessary, and before a choir item at communion. I put a stop to this with the blessing of the PP, but visiting clergy seem to find it strange.

On the other hand, I allow 15 seconds at the Peace and then we begin the hymn; if nothing else, it has stopped members of the choir wandering around the church like 3rd rate politicians looking for someone with whom to shake hands.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Goodness, what sort of choir do you have? Every choir I've ever sang with has superglue applied to the choir stalls so that choristers do not move an inch from their allotted places at any point during the service (it wears off as the opening notes of the concluding Voluntary are played). Choristers wandering around during the Peace? Whatever next?!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

FWIW I can't imagine the Christians in first-century Jerusalem or Corinth quietly reflecting before the service, I'd guess that their culture was much noisier.

I seriously doubt that.

The NT doesn’t describe early Christian worship, but in Revelation it describes in some detail what early Christians imagined it was like. The four and twenty elders were not discussing the latest football match before casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea.

St Paul is highly critical of a clique of well off Corinthian Christians who eat together before less well off Christians can join them.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, personally I prefer adhering to the old saw : "Before the service, talk to God; during the service, let God speak to you; after the service, talk to each other." And this is what we try to promote in my parish.

I've encountered:

quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I've encountered:

quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.

Is there anywhere God isn't?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

FWIW I can't imagine the Christians in first-century Jerusalem or Corinth quietly reflecting before the service, I'd guess that their culture was much noisier.
I seriously doubt that.

The NT doesn’t describe early Christian worship, but in Revelation it describes in some detail what early Christians imagined it was like. The four and twenty elders were not discussing the latest football match before casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea.

St Paul is highly critical of a clique of well off Corinthian Christians who eat together before less well off Christians can join them.

The average church service doesn't strike me as something that's modelled on this passage in Revelation. Church elders falling on the floor isn't how things are done, for a start!

And people who arrive at church in a chatty mood aren't necessarily part of a clique. One might ask whether a visitor who enters a church where everyone is studiously avoiding contact and conversation feels more welcome than a visitor in a church where people are chatting. It depends on a range of factors, I imagine.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.

Indeed, but the coincidence of such places with churches has not, IME, been of questionable statistical significance.

No, that's too smarmy by half. I'm not one for particularly being aware of God. Not enough to be sure he exists, for example. But where there have been those moments where I've had a glimpse of what God might mean if he exists, it's been as often not in a church as in one. And the moments I've been most convinced the whole thing is a load of supersitious hookum have been as much in churches as outside of them.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.

Without a doubt, and I hope church is normally one of those places. I guess I just get a little leery of expressing this in ways that suggest God is particularly present in a church* rather than inviting us to be particularly aware of that presence in church.

* I do realize that the understanding may be different for churches that reserve the sacrament in the church with an understanding that Christ is truly present in the reserved sacrament.

Posted by Robin (# 71) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Church elders falling on the floor isn't how things are done, for a start!

They do (priest and altar party) at the start of the Good Friday liturgy, in some places. But it's a once a year occurrence, and a bit of a shock if you've not seen it before.

Robin

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

But are they allowed to have a chat beforehand, or is everyone very quiet and solemn??

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Yes and yes.The solemnity of the day must affect your mood, surely?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

On reflection, yes, Good Friday services are more solemn than normal ones. That's logical.

Those Christians who find Easter somewhat awkward (and there must be many, when you consider that Christmas is a more popular festival, despite being less important) probably stay away. This may reduce the sociability factor yet further.

[ 12. July 2015, 23:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Now you've got my interest. Why would Easter be awkward for people? Or did you mean Good Friday specifically, and not Easter Sunday?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Good Friday in particular, but although Easter Sunday is obviously more popular than Good Friday neither can compete with Christmas in terms of general interest.

It may be different in other countries, though.

[ 12. July 2015, 23:56: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There isn't, but there are sure places where we can be more aware of God than others.

Our (transitional) minister usually starts her service with something like this "During the week, we have met God in the garden... down by the harbour... in the supermarket... but today we are gathered together to meet God as a family."

GG

[ 13. July 2015, 10:01: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Good Friday in particular, but although Easter Sunday is obviously more popular than Good Friday neither can compete with Christmas in terms of general interest.

It may be different in other countries, though.

I suspect Christmas outranks anything else because it has a) cute baby, b) gifts, c) ignore-able theology (you don't HAVE to discuss the incarnation at Jesus' birth, but it's pretty hard to ignore the resurrection on Easter. Particularly in church).

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

There is a great difference between the Churches of the West and of the East.
In the churches of the East is Easter by far the most important Holy Day.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).

But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
There is a great difference between the Churches of the West and of the East.
In the churches of the East is Easter by far the most important Holy Day.

I must be Severely Eastern then. And I am unashamedly driving my faith community Easterwards.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I'm sure it is in the Western Church, too (except for the extreme Protestant churches which don't "do" festivals at all).

But, in popular culture, Christmas is the more important.

Yes, indeed. One of the things that has really happened since the splits of the sixteenth century, and in Britain especially since the mid nineteenth, is that Christmas has become ever more prominent in popular culture and other Christian festivals ever less so. Certainly the case for Easter, but also to some extent to feasts like Epiphany, which were traditionally more important that Christmas in some countries (and in a few places still are).

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.

Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.

Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?

i.e. nearly all of them. It may be one of the reasons why it's nearly all of them as well.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's clear that popular culture has entered the church, though. Western churches do make more fuss over Christmas than Easter, principally because they know that Christmas is likely to be more appealing to people who rarely go to church, and especially to their children.

Although a Minister of my acquaintance said, "It's the easiest time to get them to Church, and the hardest time to get them to listen to anything serious". Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.

quote:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?

Yes; I would go so far as to say that having to "Shush" children before the service puts parents on edge and gives a very negative impression.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.

[ 14. July 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
There is a great difference between the Churches of the West and of the East.
In the churches of the East is Easter by far the most important Holy Day.

It is in the West too - communion at Easter in the C of E is compulsory. It isn't at Christmas.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Our Place really has no problem with pre-service silence, largely because until 1030am (when the Eucharist begins) there's usually only a handful of The Usual Suspects present!

There may be a certain amount of meeting and greeting, but it's on a small scale, and, in any case, our organist starts playing quietly and meditatively about 5 minutes before kick-off.

It's not unknown for a good 50% of what is by any standards a small (yet perfectly-formed!) congregation to arrive at any time during the period between the Introit Hymn and the Gospel...... [Roll Eyes]

Oh, and BTW, Small Christians are always very welcome, no matter how wriggly they might be....those of us at the altar are sometimes greatly diverted and amused (to the detriment of the flow of the liturgy) by the quiet and determined attempts of some Small Christians to toddle/run/crawl to the front without any of the Big Christians noticing...... [Big Grin]

Ian J.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I think it's the middle-sized ones who find it the hardest, to be honest. They might be more capable of being quiet, but they're also (IME) building up a sense of not wanting to be there once they're big enough to not be.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Indeed, I've found definite resistance from some if one tries to prick the popular Christmas bubble. We are expected to be complicit in the sugery-sweetness.

People are resistant to having their children told that there's no fat man in a red suit climbing down the chimney (what does he do in a modern house with no fireplaces - squeeze through the flue of the combi boiler?)

I don't think you need to indulge in sugar, though - can't you talk about Christ, and not mention the fat man at all?

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.

Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.

Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS (Missed edit window): I don't want children to shriek and shout; but I want them to be welcomed. Sadly some Christians are so concerned with their own pre-service silence that they can be very intolerant.
Silence takes a huge amount of defending, being so easily shattered, and is essential to many people. It is not a matter of being deliberately intolerant, but of having needs which noise denies.
Then you have a problem of incompatible needs. How do you resolve that?

I'm not sure. My point is that it is a joint problem, not one to be resolved exclusively by those in need of silence.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

To say two things.

1. I like silence; one thing which really annoys me is extraneous noise. So, for instance, I get very annoyed when I hear a loud car radio intruding on my thoughts, or my next-door neighbour yabbering on the phone in their garden. Modern society has got noisier and I deplore that.

2. Yet ... church worship is more about "us" than "me" (well, it's about God, of course, but you know what I mean!); it's a communal activity rather than a group of individuals coming together in a building yet merely having their own personal spiritual needs met.

So, what I think I am saying is that, while I am by no means against quiet before worship (and would encourage it), yet the needs of the community and the difficulties that others may face in maintaining that quiet must come above my own desire for silence. Indeed, by prioritising my own need I may be acting in a selfish and unchristian manner.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Do you think there's a difference between the experience of being silent on your own, and being silent as part of a group of people who are choosing to be silent?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Yes, Albertus I think there may be, just as all activity varies between individual and group practice.

I love being silent or at least peaceful both on my own and as part of a group. When I am in the UK I am part of a silent prayer group and I also like quiet reflection before a service. Here in Kenya the Anglican church still tries to practice quiet reflection before the start of the service.

But here's the thing. I am nourished by contemplative prayer. But I am also a mother and grandmother and I know that if the church is to have a future then people especially little ones need to know they are welcome regardless of their ability/ desire to practise silence.

Here we sing as the children go out to Sunday School
"Kanisa itajengwa na hawa watoto- the church will be built by these children"

There's no easy answer to this one. My preference would be to model the benefits of silence without excluding other people but quite how we do that I just don't know.I think our buildings can play a part in this though. I have never forgotten taking my little grand-daughter to visit the Cathedral where I worship when I am in the UK. She was awed by the space and beauty and of her own accord slowed her pace and lowered her tone the whole time we were in there. She then exuberantly leapt and ran as soon as we got outside into the cloisters.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)

Or to agree to impose its lack of silence (I don't mean in chatting, I mean in e.g. hymn-singing) on all comers? Any collective activity such as worship is about a group of people agreeing to do this now and that later, and so on. And being silent can be part of that, as much as singing or praying or listening to someone else can. It may not have to be, but it can be.

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Children are another thing. How do churches cope with enforcing pre-service silence if there are quite a few children around? Is it only possible in churches where adults - and probably middle-aged or older adults - are in the vast majority?

In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I've encountered:

quote:
Enter this door
as if the floor
within were gold;
and every wall
of jewels, all
of wealth untold;
as if a choir,
in robes of fire,
were singing here.
Nor shout
nor rush
but hush -
For God is here.
Is there anywhere God isn't?

You haven't been to Oldham, have you?

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)

I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes, I do. And that's the point, I think: is it right for a church to agree to impose its silence on all-comers? (Or for a clergy-person to decree it?)
I have friends whose home custom is to remove their shoes inside the door. When I visit their homes, I follow their customs. It's simple courtesy.

Quite so.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Before the service speak to the Lord.
During the service let the Lord speak to you.
After the service speak to each other.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne

Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.

For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.

If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by anne:
In my experience, pre-service chat and noise are much more of a problem with the over seventies than the under sevens. Children can make all sorts of noise for all sorts of reasons, but they are nothing compared to a chatty and slightly deaf older lady determined to share her weeks news with her friends.
I have tried many things, including ringing a sanctus bell, printed requests for quiet, invitations to 'prayerfully prepare for our service' and, on one occasion, from the chancel steps, "we are all ready to start now, Barbara, if that's OK with you." I'm not proud of that, it was born of frustration but it was rude and wrong. It was also totally ineffective. A tantrumming toddler would be much easier to manage.
Anne
Maybe the Holy Spirit is hinting that you could trust your congregation a bit more. You could help your congregation to explore different ways of starting a church service.

For example, in Pentecostal churches hustle and bustle at the beginning are quite normal and accepted. Try encouraging this for a while, and see how people feel about it. If they hate it, they might be more appreciative of the traditional ways. But the decision would be something shared, rather than being imposed by the vicar.

If there are strong differences of opinion maybe you could try alternating services in which either calm or chatty introductions predominate.

Or maybe older people are just ruder?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Probably. But mainstream churches don't just turf out rude old people, so you have to use their behaviour as a 'teachable moment'. A chance to remember that God can work through all things.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

A chance to teach old people that it is never too late for them to elarn to behave better?
I agree with Pomona. IME old people can be staggeringly rude. Young people can be unthinkingly rude but are more likely to respond well when you point this out to them, if you do it properly. I have attended churches where there were several older members of the congregation who seemed to see any 'lull' in the service s an opportunity to chat.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Well, if you can teach them successfully then there's no problem!

[ 21. July 2015, 22:35: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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