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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Alternate English language liturgical traditions
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
The Book of Common Prayer, like the Authorised Version of the Bible, is the 600 pound gorilla. Although very few people use the original 1662 BCP, almost all English liturgies bear its imprint just as many modern English language translations of the Bible echo the AV (and before that Tyndale).
What other minority voices are there though? What I mean is English language liturgies (not just for Sunday mornings or for Communion but also daily prayers etc) which stand on the edges or outside the BCP family?
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The Scottish Episcopalian liturgy, in particular for the celebration of Holy Communion, is distinct from the English BCP. I'm not an expert in these things but I understand that one of the key differences is the existence in the Scottish liturgy of an explicit epiclesis, a prayer for the Holy Spirit to descend upon the Eucharistic elements. This is present in the first Scottish prayer book of 1637 and in subsequent liturgies.
Of course the (presbyterian) Church of Scotland does have its own liturgies, though they are not compulsory, and these are contained in the Book of Common Order. A closer inspection of the copy next to my desk suggests that at least some of these follow the same pattern as the Anglican rites. Whether that's due to convergent evolution from translations of the mediaeval Latin liturgy or simple cross-pollination I couldn't say. I suspect that fact that most English-speaking traditions arise from translations of the pre-reformation liturgies you're not going to find vast differences.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The Book of Common Prayer, like the Authorised Version of the Bible, is the 600 pound gorilla. Although very few people use the original 1662 BCP, almost all English liturgies bear its imprint just as many modern English language translations of the Bible echo the AV (and before that Tyndale).
Isn't this over-egging the BCP slightly? Most modern liturgies, in terms of shape, bear more in Common with the 1549 version which was itself a translation of the Sarum Rite
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Isn't Demas's question about completely different liturgical traditions rather than different permutations of the same one. The 1549 Prayer Book and the Scottish Episcopal book are different stations on the same timeline.
There are two which are unrelated, but both are modern. One is the post Vatican II RC vernacular services. The other is the various renderings into English that exist of the Orthodox services. Presumably, outside the UK there will have been since at least the C19 English translations of various Lutheran forms of service.
Apart from that, as Arethosemyfeet says, there is the Book of Common Order. There was also a book issued when the Prayer Book was abolished during the Interregnum. The Moravians, who in England date from the C18, also have their own liturgical tradition, though I think it has drawn on some CofE features.
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm not an expert in these things but I understand that one of the key differences is the existence in the Scottish liturgy of an explicit epiclesis, a prayer for the Holy Spirit to descend upon the Eucharistic elements.
I've heard it referred to as a "double" epiclesis, in that the prayer is for the Holy Spirit to descend both upon us and upon the Eucharistic elements. It's there in both the 1970 and the 1982 liturgies.
[ 23. July 2015, 10:13: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Presumably, outside the UK there will have been since at least the C19 English translations of various Lutheran forms of service.
But until the late 20th century, these too bore the marks of the prayer book's influence. The Communion Service in the 1958 Service Book and Hymnal and the Holy Eucharist in the 1959 BCP are very similar in language and structure.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Tangent -
I was gobsmacked in Scotland to hear the eucharistic prayer pray of the gifts that "they may become the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son".
That is more in your face real presence than even the Roman Canon which only prays that they may be for us the Body and Blood, which the BCP follows.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just checked the modern language 1980s Scots liturgy with five eucharistic prayers. They all have an epiclesis over the gifts that "they may be", and none of this "for us" business.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
I think it's Roman Prayer 3 which says - or did say - "become the body & blood..."
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You might like to look at this order of communion. Its tradition is Churches of Christ/Disciples of Christ/Campbellite though written in the URC. It therefore traces its roots through CofS and so bypasses CofE.
There is a historic URC form here but that is clearly written in the context of the Ecumenical Movement so some of Cramners prose has crept in. It is this one that I think most URC minister riff on, but the riff is very free.
Historically for Reformed you might like to look at John Knox Liturgy which predates Cramners final version and is based on the worship in Geneva under John Calvin. There is also The Westminister Directory for Publick Worship and A petition for Peace with the reformation of the Liturgy that was written by Richard Baxter.
There is then two hundred years of silence if you exclude sermons, metrical psalms and later on hymns all of which can be used for private devotion.
Then come the 19th Century and it appears that the Reformed develop an interest in Liturgical studies, that is in the recovery of historical liturgical texts and the interactions of them with the week by week re-creation of liturgy. This results in the formation of organisations such as Church Service Society which predates any Anglican one.
I would have to do some searching but exemplar orders for public worship started appearing by the late 19th Century. These, however, are catholic in the sense that they tended to draw on a wider range of sources outside the Reformed tradition. They would draw quite happily on Cramners work but it would be right next to prayers from Byzantium and ones they had written without credits.
Jengie
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
The Book of Common Prayer, like the Authorised Version of the Bible, is the 600 pound gorilla. Although very few people use the original 1662 BCP, almost all English liturgies bear its imprint just as many modern English language translations of the Bible echo the AV (and before that Tyndale).
Isn't this over-egging the BCP slightly? Most modern liturgies, in terms of shape, bear more in Common with the 1549 version which was itself a translation of the Sarum Rite
Maybe in terms of shape, but focussing on shape is I think a more modern way of looking at liturgies.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't Demas's question about completely different liturgical traditions rather than different permutations of the same one. The 1549 Prayer Book and the Scottish Episcopal book are different stations on the same timeline
Pretty much, yes. The analogy is with the AV - the ESV and NRSV are different but both are clearly within a Tyndale tradition.
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
You might like to look at this order of communion. Its tradition is Churches of Christ/Disciples of Christ/Campbellite though written in the URC. It therefore traces its roots through CofS and so bypasses CofE.
Thanks, this is quite nice.
What do you think caused the "two hundred years of silence"? Was it just political?
I had a look at John Knox's liturgy and was surprised to see a large amount of space taking up with discussing fasting!
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Fasting was taken seriously in Scotland in particular fasting before communion. So much so that the Scottish local holidays are derived from the fast days before communion season.
The silence is intriguing, I have read academic papers on it. The view I have heard expressed is that it was fuelled by a general distrust of written liturgy in any form. This is as much by the congregation as the minister. This did not stop a number of books appearing on how to prepare a sermon.
The result is that communion became a minimalist celebration with the reading of the warrant (1 Corrinthians 11:23-29), extemporary prayer and the distribution. The Lord's prayer might also be in the mix but almost nothing else.
Jengie
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Before I forget, the minimal celebration does not necessarily imply a lax attitude to communion. Both English dissenters and Scottish Presbyterians took the last verse of the warrant seriously. The result in Scotland was the development of Communion Season which encompasses both times of preparation and times of thanksgiving. In English Dissent, it became a closed service only available to those who had satisfied everyone that they were full members of the congregation. Establishing yourself as a full member could be arduous The result in English dissent was that most attendees never took communion because they were not full members. This approach caused real hassle among New England Puritans, where being a full member of a congregation also became linked to civil rights.
Jengie
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
those who had satisfied everyone that they were full members of the congregation.
I know it is tangential, but can anyone tell me whether the status "adherent" (as opposed to "communicant member") still exists in the C of S?
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
those who had satisfied everyone that they were full members of the congregation.
I know it is tangential, but can anyone tell me whether the status "adherent" (as opposed to "communicant member") still exists in the C of S?
Yes, the returns to 121 George Street still list adherents. There's no practical meaning I can discern as the CofS practices open communion.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
There would be a distinct difference in the Free Church of Scotland,as well as the Free Presbyterian Church and the various offshoots of these two ecclesial communities.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
Thanks to both. Returning to the topic, but not straying too far from Scotland, I am surprised no one has mentioned the Catholic Apostolic (Irvingite) service/prayer book. Or Dr Orchard's service book. I once had copies of these, but alas they've vanished.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh yes, I used to have an Irvingite prayer book. Lots of formulae for blessings including 'blessing of a chamber residence'- which I take to mean a bedsitter, and therefore to offer an interesting insight into the social position of some of their adherents.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
those who had satisfied everyone that they were full members of the congregation.
I know it is tangential, but can anyone tell me whether the status "adherent" (as opposed to "communicant member") still exists in the C of S?
Yes, the returns to 121 George Street still list adherents. There's no practical meaning I can discern as the CofS practices open communion.
Adherents don't get to vote for a new minister. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And not all of the CofS practices open communion. Some churches are very strict on church membership first. Even less strict churches would encourage adults who wanted to take communion to be confirmed.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Adherents don't get to vote for a new minister.
And not all of the CofS practices open communion. Some churches are very strict on church membership first. Even less strict churches would encourage adults who wanted to take communion to be confirmed.
Thanks for that. I can only go on what I see and what I've been told. I asked folk at my local church and no-one could tell me beyond communion, and the minister gives an open invitation to communion. We still have adherents, though. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Thanks to both. Returning to the topic, but not straying too far from Scotland, I am surprised no one has mentioned the Catholic Apostolic (Irvingite) service/prayer book. Or Dr Orchard's service book. I once had copies of these, but alas they've vanished.
Thankfully, both are online.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh yes, I used to have an Irvingite prayer book. Lots of formulae for blessings including 'blessing of a chamber residence'- which I take to mean a bedsitter, and therefore to offer an interesting insight into the social position of some of their adherents.
Others tenaciously clawed their way up the ladder, reaching such dizzy heights as the Presidency of Magdalen College Oxford. (Circa 1960; his parents, in humbler circumstances, had been sent from Cornwall to assist in the Catholic Apostolic enterprise in Dundee.)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Thankfully, both are online.
Those are very interesting, but right from the first pages, it would be impossible to claim they are other than very significantly influenced by the 1662 BCP or to be from a quite different tradition.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes, no, maybe, with Dr Orchards. If you are looking for significant churches in twentieth century liturgy then you could do worse than Kings Weigh House. I go more for the work of his predecessor John Hunter myself.
His work is very much that of the eclectic catholicism I spoke of earlier, but with Orchard that is Catholicism. If you want his distinctive liturgy, you must imagine a service of the Word strictly on Presbyterian lines followed with a Eucharist which was Catholic in style. I hate to think how long a worship service took. He also ordained the first Trinitarian woman minister in the modern era in the UK.
Jengie
[ 24. July 2015, 18:00: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Fasting was taken seriously in Scotland in particular fasting before communion.
Jengie
The fasting before communion was also emphasized in the Wesley tradition. I have my great-grandmother's 'class book,' the official records of her rural Kentucky "Methodist Episcopal Church, South' congregation. Contents include a roster of all members and their 'state in grace', minutes of 'Quarterly Meeting' and other info. On the title page in a larger and bold script is 'Remember the day before the Quarterly Meeting as a day of prayer and fasting.' (I may not be quoting exactly.)
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Adherents don't get to vote for a new minister.
And not all of the CofS practices open communion. Some churches are very strict on church membership first. Even less strict churches would encourage adults who wanted to take communion to be confirmed.
Thanks for that. I can only go on what I see and what I've been told. I asked folk at my local church and no-one could tell me beyond communion, and the minister gives an open invitation to communion. We still have adherents, though.
There was a time, not long ago, when only members got to take communion. Adherents were a phenomenon mainly in Highland churches, where the more conservative church culture there took communion so seriously, that many would not become members until they (or the Kirk Session) felt they had reached a certain level of spiritual maturity - which was often in old age. But they still came weekly to church, and so the category of 'adherent' was a way of counting them as church goers even though they did not take communion.
The situation became more confused around the 1990s. Communion in the CofS is open to people who have been confirmed in other churches. However, the average age of confirmation varies from denomination to denomination, with some CofE and Catholic children being confirmed around the age of 8. By contrast, our young people don't usually join the church until they are deemed adult enough to understand fully their vows, usually from the age of 15 or so. So it was realised that we were in a situation where children from other churches could take communion in our church, when our own children couldn't.
Largely as a result of this, local churches were given permission by the General Assembly to open communion to children if they so chose. That meant that you no longer had to be a church member before taking communion, which ruling naturally extends to adults as well. There was a general move to more open communion anyway, but this gave it legitimacy.
Back to adherents: in more recent years, the category has proved useful beyond the Highland churches. We recognise that people are at different stages in their faith journeys, and not everyone is ready to make a commitment to full membership. Evangelicals in particular are often not so bothered about denominational loyalty, and while they might faithfully attend a local church, they might go to a different denomination if they ever move house.
Also, people simply join things less these days, from churches to unions to political parties. However, they may be worshipping much more regularly than many actual members, and be very much part of the church community. The category of 'adherent' is a way of acknowledging this, though it is usually with a view to full membership eventually; and it is a way of counting real church involvement, which may be very different from the membership statistics. And actually, the criteria for adherent status is in some ways stricter than for member status - you have to come to church fairly regularly before you are added, and if you stop coming, you will simply be removed from the list ... no 'lines' to worry about.
Oh, and adherents can't be elders either.
Hope this helps.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It does, thanks. Not sure it resembles the practice out here but it's nice to know theory.
Incidentally, while admission to communion for Anglicans and Roman Catholics will often be around age 8, confirmation tends to happen later, around 11-13. The early admission to communion has been around in the CofE and SEC only about as long as it has in the CofS. When I was confirmed about 20 years ago that was the point at which you started to receive.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Thanks - I didn't know that. If children are admitted to communion before confirmation, then I can see how that made our change of policy even more urgent.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
By contrast, our young people don't usually join the church until they are deemed adult enough to understand fully their vows, usually from the age of 15 or so. So it was realised that we were in a situation where children from other churches could take communion in our church, when our own children couldn't.
Largely as a result of this, local churches were given permission by the General Assembly to open communion to children if they so chose. That meant that you no longer had to be a church member before taking communion, which ruling naturally extends to adults as well. There was a general move to more open communion anyway, but this gave it legitimacy.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) made a similar move 20+ years ago, but for more theological/ecclesiological reasons. Essentially a renewed interest in understanding of baptism led to a rejection of the idea of confirmation as "joining the church." One joined the church through baptism, so the idea was that communion should be open to all the baptized. Confirmation was understood to be a transition to taking on more responsibility in the life of the church.
The shift in baptismal understanding was fueled by the supplemental liturgical resources that led to the 1993 Book of Common Worship. (Trying to move back to English language liturgies.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
I'm not really familiar with the Book of Common Worship - is it related to the CofE Common Worship? How Cranmerish is it?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I'm not really familiar with the Book of Common Worship - is it related to the CofE Common Worship? How Cranmerish is it?
No. It has been around in various incarnations since 1906, long before the CoE book, so the PCUSA hasn't pinched the title.
The language is as Cranmerian as modern American English is likely to be.
[ 25. July 2015, 16:46: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I'm not really familiar with the Book of Common Worship - is it related to the CofE Common Worship? How Cranmerish is it?
No. It has been around in various incarnations since 1906, long before the CoE book, so the PCUSA hasn't pinched the title.
The language is as Cranmerian as modern American English is likely to be.
I would say the 1906, 1932 and 1946 BCWs showed more Cranmerian influence. The 1970 Worshipbook (the one American Presbyterian liturgical book not to use the BCW name) deliberately went for contemporary American English. The 1993 BCW went for contemporary but poetic language, but I think other influences—such as Roman Catholic liturgical translations—are as influential as Cranmer if not more so. Of course, there are prayers taken directly from the BCP.
Demos, a PDF of the 1993 BCW can be found here.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
While the original post implied an interest in Western rite texts, there is an interesting English language tradition that has developed in Orthodoxy, at the monastery at New Skete, in upstate New York. In their edition of "The Divine Liturgy" (including the liturgy of St. James of Jerusalem, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, and the liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, 1987), texts were translated from the original Greek, but compared with "innumerable other translations, both ancient and modern." They also note "...the accomodations we make...for the peculiarities of American English." Their translation of the "Sanctus" gives some idea of their work: "Holy, holy, holy Lord of power and might! Heaven and earth are filled with your glory: Hosanna in the heights!" (Brief enough, I hope, to avoid copyright concerns). The liturgy of St. James uses "cup" in the institution narrative, St. John Chrysostom, "chalice." The Lord's Prayer is awfully close to the 1979 BCP, though concluding "...now and forever and unto ages of ages." It's a distinctive - and clearly American - approach to English in the liturgy.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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