Ship of Fools: Singing belief to the heavens?

Thread: Singing belief to the heavens? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I know there is an assumed wisdom regarding the singing of the Creed that it makes the baby Jesus cry, but given settings by such figures as Blessèd Franz Schubert and others, is this really true?

I believe the papal position (there's an oxymoron) some years ago was that Gregorian chant could be used.

Does a sung credo make the Baby Jesus cry? Or do Jesus and the angels dance for joy as belief is sung to the heavens? Reasons?

(Oh - and then there's the Lord's Prayer ... )

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I know there is an assumed wisdom regarding the singing of the Creed that it makes the baby Jesus cry,

Honestly, this is the first time of heard it put this way. That said, it's rarely heard sung in the average Catholic parish in the U.S. and I did hear second hand on another board (so take this with a grain of salt) about a priest who was told in the seminary that the Creed isn't sung.

quote:
...but given settings by such figures as Blessèd Franz Schubert and others, is this really true?

Absolutely not. The Nicene Creed has had musical settings since at least the start of the second millennium in the West and it's had musical settings for who knows how long in the East. They guy(s) at seminary who allegedly told the priest above that it isn't sung were very mistaken.

quote:
I believe the papal position (there's an oxymoron)

Is this some kind of double entendre? Honestly, I'm not being snarky, I'm just a bit sheltered. [Angel]

quote:
...some years ago was that Gregorian chant could be used.

As far as I know it's always been okay to sing it to Gregorian chant. Credo I goes at least as far back as the 11th century. The Kyriale (collection of chants for the ordinary of the mass) has about...*google*, *google*, *google*.... 6 settings of the Creed in Gregorian chant.

Here is Credo I on Youtube: link.

Here is Credo III for comparison's sake and because it's probably the best known of the bunch: link.

Finally, here is the adaptation of Credo I in English that was done for the most recent translation of the Roman Missal so that the people may sing their part: link.

quote:
Does a sung credo make the Baby Jesus cry?

Nope.

quote:
Or do Jesus and the angels dance for joy as belief is sung to the heavens?

Yep.

quote:
Reasons?

Tune in next time. [Smile]

quote:
(Oh - and then there's the Lord's Prayer ... )

See above. In English-speaking parishes in the U.S. it's one of a few pieces of music that will actually get Catholics in the pews to sing. (Another one is "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.) At a parish I used to attend regularly, even at the contemporary/folk masses this prayer would be sung to chant and most people would join in.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

It's the first I've ever heard such a thing as well. When I was RC we always sung the Creed, usually in Latin and always Gregorian chant (as with all the ordinary parts).

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Many, many composers have set the entire Ordinary to music - just think of Beethoven's great Credo, with the insistent repetition of Credo, Credo. Beethoven was emphasising his own belief, not the niceties of it.

FWIW, we always say the Creed. For Choral Eucharists (1st, 3rd and 5th Sundays) we sing the Lord's prayer; for Sung Eucharists it is chanted.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I've heard somebody say some years ago that you weren't supposed to sing the creed, but they did not say why not. Nor did they say what their authority was for this odd statement.

So unless and until persuaded otherwise, I'm going to class this as an example of 'Dear Father Spiky always forbade the singing of the Creed. Now he has died, I am the only one left who knows the truth - at least it means I can feel superior when lesser people do it wrong'.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Sight tangent, sorry - I was so used to singing the Creed to Merbecke as a youngster that I find nowadays that I can only remember the BCP version when it is sung (which it is is in several CofE parishes) and never when it is said. I love Credo III also.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Actually the first time I heard it was a no no was some years ago when a (now decanal) church music composer, whose Mass setting I have introduced everywhere, demurred when I asked him to extend his setting with a creed ... but I'm not sure where he based his ideas.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

No musical setting of the Creed could be as bad as the setting of the Gloria to Ode To Joy (as happens in my friends' parish church).

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

My choir recently sang the Haydn Nelson Mass(not for a service) which included the creed. This was well received by our audience but I can see that it might have been a bit 'high-brow' for an ordinary congregation in a church service.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

My early Church experience was in Methodist churches. Where, it is said, we sang our belief in the hymns. A musical setting for creeds would not be substantially different to most good hymns - a declaration of belief in song.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
My choir recently sang the Haydn Nelson Mass(not for a service) which included the creed. This was well received by our audience but I can see that it might have been a bit 'high-brow' for an ordinary congregation in a church service.

It's always been my opinion that though pleasing to the ear (also add the more complex polyphony to that) such are not particularly liturgical. For me one of the the things which makes music liturgically useful is that it can in theory be used in any church at any time. In that respect chant requires very little training (really all it requires is that you're not tone deaf) but orchestral pieces and complex polyphony require highly trained musicians and the words can't always be made out.

[ 07. August 2015, 10:41: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

On the other hand, there is this ...

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
My choir recently sang the Haydn Nelson Mass(not for a service) which included the creed. This was well received by our audience but I can see that it might have been a bit 'high-brow' for an ordinary congregation in a church service.

On some special occasions over the last couple of years our choir has sung Haydn's Little Organ Mass at the main Sunday Eucharist - always omitting the Creed which remains said. The Service sheet prints the Latin with the English translation alongside (a rather difficult task for the Gloria). The same with other Latin mass settings.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

Any part of the Mass can be chanted. In my ecclesial neck-of-the-woods, the creed rarely is though. I'm pretty sure our hymnals have chant settings for both creeds, though, so someone must be using them. I've mainly encountered sung creeds in Latin Masses (OF and EF), and very grand occasions.

The Apostles' Creed is part of Evensong, isn't it, but I don't think it was included in the settings we sang in college?

Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :

We sing it in our Byzantine Catholic church (aka Ruthenian or Greek Catholic) - just as we sing every other part of the Divine Liturgy. Except the homily, which generally makes Baby Jesus cry whether it's sung or not. ;-)

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by windsofchange:
Except the homily, which generally makes Baby Jesus cry whether it's sung or not. ;-)

LOL!

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

We sing it all the time in our place. Mode IV, I think--#720 in the Hymnal 1940. Every Sunday and any other holy day when we have the choir, at least.

There's one old biddy who constantly complains about singing it (and the Lord's Prayer, too), on the grounds that it weren't done that way when she was a tot. I have reminded her that the Church is older than she is.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Baptist Trainfan

quote:
There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...

Actually it was the Gloria - Barry Rose (late of St Paul's Cathedral and St Alban's Abbey) did it and he made a tidy sum too.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I've certainly sung the Creed to Merbecke, to Gregorian chant, and to various paraphrases. But it is rare, even in congregations which tend to sing many other parts of the service.

Why?

Because it is too long, or because it is considered 'teaching' rather than praise? Maybe just because it doesn't seem very musical?

Some combination of these, would be my guess.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
quote:
There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...
Actually it was the Gloria - Barry Rose (late of St Paul's Cathedral and St Alban's Abbey) did it and he made a tidy sum too.

Tangenting ever so slightly.... be there a youtube of this around?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by dj_ordinaire

quote:
I've certainly sung the Creed to Merbecke, to Gregorian chant, and to various paraphrases. But it is rare, even in congregations which tend to sing many other parts of the service.

Why?

The reason I've been given by several clergy is that by expecting people to sing you may be preventing some from joining in: but I'd argue that if people are that concerned about their lack of prowess in singing they're unlikely to come to a service where they're expected to join in anyway.

When I've tried that argument I usually get a follow-up along the lines of If people are worrying about or thinking about the music they won't be thinking about what they're saying which would render them joining in the Creed meaningless.

FWIW I don't hold with either of these but persuading clergy to let us sing the Creed is not someone I'm prepared to go to the wall over.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by dj_ordinaire
quote:
I've certainly sung the Creed to Merbecke, to Gregorian chant, and to various paraphrases. But it is rare, even in congregations which tend to sing many other parts of the service.

Why?
The reason I've been given by several clergy is that by expecting people to sing you may be preventing some from joining in: but I'd argue that if people are that concerned about their lack of prowess in singing they're unlikely to come to a service where they're expected to join in anyway.

Interestingly, I have heard this argument for saying, rather than singing, the Our Father - and here I have a lot more sympathy as it is likely to be the only part of the service that a casual visitor can easily join in with.

I can't think of any real reason why it is harder to sing the Creed than the Gloria in Exclesis, or the Mag, or, indeed, a long hymn or worship song, but I agree that clergy will often make this argument anyway...

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
quote:
There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...
Actually it was the Gloria - Barry Rose (late of St Paul's Cathedral and St Alban's Abbey) did it and he made a tidy sum too.

Must have taken him all of, what, half an afternoon. Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying: money old rope for.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

It's true that the Creed is rarely sung in Anglophone RC churches. Here in Scotland I have only heard it in sung in Latin and that happens occasionally,even when the Mass is celebrated in English.

Although composers in 18th century onwards usually had a form of the Credo written into their settings of the Mass,more traditional forms ,such as the well known Missa de Angelis,did not have a Credo as an integral part of the Mass setting.The Credo came from a different source.

I have never heard the Credo sung in the vernacular in France either.It is either recited or sung antiphonally in Latin.

'Holy God,we praise Thy name' is an English translation of Grosser Gott,wir loben Dich,a German translation of Te Deum laudamus.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I like singing the Creed - you don't have to mean every word in the way you would if saying it.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
Sight tangent, sorry - I was so used to singing the Creed to Merbecke as a youngster that I find nowadays that I can only remember the BCP version when it is sung

I'm glad it's not just me then!

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I like singing the Creed - you don't have to mean every word in the way you would if saying it.

If I've understood you correctly you're being sarcastic. If so, well said!

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Singing the creed to Merbecke is referred to, but I have not spotted any mention of the setting by Martin Shaw, which is comparable to Merbecke. I sometimes mistake one for the other. If my memory serves me correctly, when I was a youngster, the Martin Shaw setting was replaced by Merbecke during Lent. In my experience, neither setting has disappeared entirely.

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
quote:
There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...
Actually it was the Gloria - Barry Rose (late of St Paul's Cathedral and St Alban's Abbey) did it and he made a tidy sum too.
Must have taken him all of, what, half an afternoon. Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying: money old rope for.

I also imagine that he spent longer in court dealing with his breach of copyright than counting the 'tidy sum' he would have then had to pay to the composer(s) of the tune.

On topic, I regularly sang the Creed (in Latin) as an RC child, in the late 70s/early 80s. I don't think that was common in the local churches, but then our parish priest would not have worried about that!

[ 08. August 2015, 18:20: Message edited by: Rev per Minute ]

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

In a RC church in Berlin a few weeks ago we sung it in Latin (this was a Latin mass), with lines being sung alternate between the congo and the cantor.

In various RC churches in Germany, we've sung the entire mass to different words (e.g. not the Gloria itself, but some kind of shorter paraphrase) which included some kind of "Wir glauben an*...." various things that can be contained in two six four line verses.

* We believe in

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Is it possible that the Creed is said in Anglican churches as at the time of liturgical renewal the only available Western settings were of it in Latin and sung by a choir? Having it said meant that it could be in the national language and affirmed by all as their belief?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Eh?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
quote:
There used to be a version set to the "Eastenders" theme - I only know the first couple of lines, but they fitted quite well ...
Actually it was the Gloria - Barry Rose (late of St Paul's Cathedral and St Alban's Abbey) did it and he made a tidy sum too.

Of course it was - sorry! Didn't know it was by Barry Rose, though.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh?

I don't understand this - my post was pretty straightforward.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Is it possible that the Creed is said in Anglican churches as at the time of liturgical renewal the only available Western settings were of it in Latin and sung by a choir? Having it said meant that it could be in the national language and affirmed by all as their belief?

No, it was almost always sung congregationally to Merbecke or Martin Shaw, and Anglo-Catholic churches would use the De Angelis setting.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Singing the creed to Merbecke is referred to, but I have not spotted any mention of the setting by Martin Shaw, which is comparable to Merbecke. I sometimes mistake one for the other. If my memory serves me correctly, when I was a youngster, the Martin Shaw setting was replaced by Merbecke during Lent. In my experience, neither setting has disappeared entirely.

Which Shaw setting? - the most well-known was his 'Anglican Folm mass' but there was also a modal setting.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Is it possible that the Creed is said in Anglican churches as at the time of liturgical renewal the only available Western settings were of it in Latin and sung by a choir?

No - when the 1662 BCP was published, Merbecke set the whole thing to music -sentences, readings etc. - including the Creed.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Singing the creed to Merbecke is referred to, but I have not spotted any mention of the setting by Martin Shaw, which is comparable to Merbecke. I sometimes mistake one for the other. If my memory serves me correctly, when I was a youngster, the Martin Shaw setting was replaced by Merbecke during Lent. In my experience, neither setting has disappeared entirely.
Which Shaw setting? - the most well-known was his 'Anglican Folk mass' but there was also a modal setting.

Leo, I needed your prompt to remind me that it is 'Anglican Folk Mass'.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Is it possible that the Creed is said in Anglican churches as at the time of liturgical renewal the only available Western settings were of it in Latin and sung by a choir? Having it said meant that it could be in the national language and affirmed by all as their belief?
No, it was almost always sung congregationally to Merbecke or Martin Shaw, and Anglo-Catholic churches would use the De Angelis setting.

Thanks - although even in a traditionally low church parish we sang most of the 1662 service to Merbecke, we had never sung the Creed and I wrongly assumed from that that he had not set it. I suspect Leo that he did not set 1662 though - 1549 more likely.

Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

I believe the papal position (there's an oxymoron)
Is this some kind of double entendre? Honestly, I'm not being snarky, I'm just a bit sheltered.

Think missionary position

[Edit: UBB]

[ 13. August 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I suspect Leo that he did not set 1662 though - 1549 more likely.

The copy i have is for 1662 - maybe it weas updated

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

I am a little fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall learning that Merbecke's music did not catch on at the time since the 1549 was so short-lived and he never revised it for 1552. (Ironically he himself was a recusant IIRC). The revival of Merbecke, and presumably its redaction in comformity with the 1662 book, was a Tractarian development.

The arrangement of the Missa Simplicior in the Anglican Church of Canada's Common Praise (successor to the Book of Common Praise customarily bound with the prayer book) is credited to Willan.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I've been on shore the last three days. It's odd, and I think significant, that in all the time this thread has been running, some of us have said they've heard of this foible but nobody has been able to come up with a better argument for why Dear Father Spiky might have insisted on this than 'it's difficult to sing'.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I suspect Leo that he did not set 1662 though - 1549 more likely.
The copy i have is for 1662 - maybe it weas updated

As Knopwood notes, Merbecke never got round to modifying for 1552 - perhaps no time to before Edward VI died, and after that it was better to lie low. As he died around 1585, it's likely he did not write with 1662 in mind. Someone else updated it.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I like singing the Creed - you don't have to mean every word in the way you would if saying it.
If I've understood you correctly you're being sarcastic. If so, well said!

IIRC the late Bp James Pike said much the same thing, and AFAIK he wasn't being sarcastic. [Two face]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Not entirely sarcastic.

We have good days and bad days - belief waxes and wanes.

[ 12. August 2015, 14:34: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Is anyone, please, able to answer my question of three days ago as to why dear old, and now late, Father Spiky might have insisted one should not sing the creed?

Meanwhile, on Leo's point, I suspect what I'm about to say may sound a bit weird to some shipmates. It puzzles me when people say they object to saying the creed because they aren't sure they believe all of it. It's what the church, collectively and historically has decided it believes. If one's feeling a bit wobbly this week about some phrase in it, isn't it sufficient to say to oneself, 'this is what I aspire to believe' or 'this is what I'd like to believe'. Even on the 'and the Son' where I'm not sure which I believe, and where if pressed, I'd say I prefer the Florentine compromise, I don't think it's an issue of conscience to say or not say the controversial three words.

Saying 'I should only say what today I can really commit my mind to', strikes me as uber-prod, regarding one's own opinions as more valid than the collective wisdom of the church

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is anyone, please, able to answer my question of three days ago as to why dear old, and now late, Father Spiky might have insisted one should not sing the creed?

Apparently not!

Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :

I have a feeling it was a reaction to Vatican II. V II was very much in favour of participatory singing, according to this summary, but there seems to be very little tolerance of choral liturgy. The idea that the creed must be said seems to me to be a "plus royaliste que le roi*" version of that tendency.

*equivalent expression would be "more catholic than the pope"

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

I've heard it sung with guitar, drums, dancing and incense. Very powerful when all accompaniment ceased as all genuflected during the incarnatus and began joyously as all rose after "became man."

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is anyone, please, able to answer my question of three days ago as to why dear old, and now late, Father Spiky might have insisted one should not sing the creed?

My recollection is that C of E parishes which adopted the Vat II reform of the liturgy (!) stopped singing the creed as part of that move. I don't think it was anything to do with personal preference or idiosyncratic clergy. On the contrary, it was only oddballs (and those who ignored the bigger picture) who continued to sing.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It puzzles me when people say they object to saying the creed because they aren't sure they believe all of it. It's what the church, collectively and historically has decided it believes. If one's feeling a bit wobbly this week about some phrase in it, isn't it sufficient to say to oneself, 'this is what I aspire to believe' or 'this is what I'd like to believe'.

I completely agree with this - but find that many people don't get the point and get anxious about the Creed - and they bare pamndered to by an every-increasing set of options in Common Worship whereby you can replace the Nicene creed with little responsories.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

The objection I hear most often (and I have some sympathy with it) it that by stating "We believe..." they are making a statement about the belief of others in the building saying it at the same time and that it may well be that they don't share all beliefs with others in the same church.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

That's easily solved by going back to the first-person singular, as it was first introduced into the liturgy.

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