Ship of Fools: Our Lady of Fifth Avenue

Thread: Our Lady of Fifth Avenue Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Josiah Crawley (# 18481) on :

I'm not sure if this topic is for this board, sorry if I got this wrong, but here goes

St Thomas 5th Ave NY (Episcopal) has a statue of 'Our Lady of Fifth Avenue' which seems like a new devotion.

My question is do titles of Our Lady like this and devotion in this title need bishops to authorise or is it grassroots?

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

There is a process in the Roman Catholic Church for declaring certain Marian apparitions as "worthy of belief," but it normally begins at the grassroots. Lots of very ancient churches are simply dedicated to "Our Lady of [place]". And of course, in the Anglican Communion, who's to say?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Even in the RCC, not every title Our Lady of ____ refers to an apparition. Many of the well-known titles do, of course, but there are churches and religious houses called Our Lady of the Lakes, Mountains, Hills, Desert, Prairie, Heartlands, depending on their geographic surroundings. One probably must be careful when using secular names, such as Fifth Avenue, lest a consumeristic message be inferred, but any title of a church or other diocesan institution is approved by the local bishop. In the case of a religious house, it is done with permission of the superiors, as well.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Just sayin'. Looked like bloody rising salt damp to me.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Just disappointed it wasn't in Sydney diocese.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

My late great-grandmother was in her final years a devotee of Our Lady of Marmora (near Peterborough, Ontario). I remember visiting her in her retirement home and her suite was covered in copies of this artist's rendition. As I recall, the BVM's message mostly had to do with abortion and the impending apocalypse. One of my great-uncles co-edited the collected revelations said to have been given at the site. They apparently did not meet with the approval of the Archbishop of Kingston.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Our Lady of Aberdeen is a statue which was saved from destruction during the Reformation and smuggled to safety. It is now in Brussels.

St Mary's Cathedral in Aberdeen has a side chapel which contains a copy of the original statue; any time I have been in St Mary's, the statue has been surrounded by fresh flowers.

There is a church dedicated to our Lady of Aberdeen; it too has a copy of the original statue.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just disappointed it wasn't in Sydney diocese.

We have started on it, Albertus: Sydney does have Our Lady of Advent (Granville); Our Lady of the Rocks (North Rocks); Our Lady of Albion (Surry Hills), and Our Lady of the Mystic Rose (Rose Bay)!

In, but not (yet at least) of the Diocese!
[Devil]

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

We also had our own Virgin of the fence posts some years ago. Complete with pilgrims. This was at Coogee Beach. From a few hundred metres away, at certain time of the day when the light was right, the Virgin could be seen by squinting at a fence post. Later destroyed by vandals.

[ 11. October 2015, 22:45: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Our Lady of Aberdeen is known in Brussels,where the original statue is now to be found ,as Notre Dame du bon Succes (is a translation really needed here ?) and also simply as ND de Finisterre,since the statue was brought to Brussels,then in the Spanish Netherlands ,
from the ends of the earth.

In front of the church in the shopping district of the rue Neuve/Nieustraat are carved the words:

Laus tua in fines terrae (Your praise goes out to the ends of the earth).

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Forthview:

quote:
the statue was brought to Brussels,then in the Spanish Netherlands,from the ends of the earth.

Aberdeen is "the ends of the earth"??? [Eek!]

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

There is a small statue of Our Lady of Coventry in Priory Gardens (in Coventry) - it appears to just be a local dedication without any apparition.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Aberdeen 'the ends of the earth' ??? well,maybe,but it really refers to the statue as having been brought to Brussels from Cape Finisterre in Galicia,within the territory of the King of Spain.

How it got to Spain is yet another matter !

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

If I ever visit Brussels, it is at the top of my "must see" list.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Aberdeen is "the ends of the earth"???

Yes!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Invercargill is the other ends

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

All Saints' Church of Ashmont, Boston has a shrine to Our Lady of Dorchester ! (I light a candle to her every time I'm there.)

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

That title would appear to have an older pedigree than Massachusetts!

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

Well, I did not know that!

That, however, gets more to the heart of it for me, however. For instance, I'm sure All Saints' Church, Boston wouldn't have a statute of Our Lady of Dorchester if it weren't in Dorchester, Boston, Massachusetts. Aren't these designations, e.g. "Our Lady of Fifth Ave." a touch cheeky? Is that okay? For some reason I think it is, even though I don't usually like to make light of Christianity. But I think this is a particularly Anglican phenomenon.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
... But I think this is a particularly Anglican phenomenon.

I think it would be more pedantically accurate to call this is a particularly Episcopalian phenomenon.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

Or to be more pedantic, an Episcopal phenomenon.

Episcopalian is a noun. [Biased]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Or to be more pedantic, an Episcopal phenomenon.

Episcopalian is a noun.

Can it not be both, like "American"?

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

Sadly no.

From the church style guide. . (It's surprisingly thorough.):

Episcopal, Episcopalian: Episcopal is the adjective; use Episcopalian only as a noun referring to a member of The Episcopal Church: She is an Episcopalian and she is also an Episcopal priest.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I think we may have hit a pond difference here. 'Episcopal' here would normally mean directly pertaining to a bishop. To describe something as "a particularly Episcopal phenomenon" would mean something that went specifically with a bishop, like a mitre, or gaiters.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

What's the pond that separates Scotland from England, then? [Smile]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

It's also a latitude question; north of the world's longest undefended border, we use British style on this, outside of the newspaper world. When referring to TEC stuff, we use their style, but a retired journalist of mky acquaintance (ex-Montreal Gazette) told me that when he did so (using the Associated Press stylebook), he would get correcting telephone calls from a variety of clerics and wannabees who disapproved. He told me that, when he wasn't too busy, he like chatting with them.

In decades of scratching out clerical address errors in ministerial correspondence (would you address a cardinal archbishop as Dear Reverend Ouellet??), I never ran into anything going to a TEC cleric, so was deprived of recreation.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I think we may have hit a pond difference here. 'Episcopal' here would normally mean directly pertaining to a bishop. To describe something as "a particularly Episcopal phenomenon" would mean something that went specifically with a bishop, like a mitre, or gaiters.

I'm not entirely sure this is correct. The "episcopal" in The Episcopal Church does mean directly pertaining to a bishop. It's an adjective describing Church, as opposed to a presbyterian church or a congregational church, for example. "Episcopal" doesn't sound quite right converted into a noun, e.g., "I'm an Episcopal," so it needs a more "noun-y" noun form.

Episcopalians also use the adjective "episcopal" in a more general sense all the time, as well. We have a section in the Prayer Book called Episcopal Services for ordinations, etc.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Referring to pond difference between Scotland and England ,that is on both sides of the Tweed, I would ,like my English counterpart ,understand 'episcopal phenomenon' (or even 'Episcopal phenomenon' as referring directly to a bishop.
'Episcopalian phenomenon' would suggest,rightly or wrongly, things to do with the members of the episcopal church.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
It's also a latitude question; north of the world's longest undefended border, we use British style on this, outside of the newspaper world. When referring to TEC stuff, we use their style, but a retired journalist of mky acquaintance (ex-Montreal Gazette) told me that when he did so (using the Associated Press stylebook), he would get correcting telephone calls from a variety of clerics and wannabees who disapproved. He told me that, when he wasn't too busy, he like chatting with them.

In decades of scratching out clerical address errors in ministerial correspondence (would you address a cardinal archbishop as Dear Reverend Ouellet??), I never ran into anything going to a TEC cleric, so was deprived of recreation.

I often hear the assertion "Episcopal is an adjective, Episcopalian is a noun" repeated, but I'm not convinced it's dogmatically true as a style principle. There are instances where following it slavishly just sounds wrong in my ears, and this is one of them (we're talking about a phenomenon particular to Episcopalians as a tradition, not episcopacy as an office). "Episcopal bishop" is redundant; "Episcopalian bishop" makes sense as denoting a bishop of a particular denomination of which episcopacy is a keynote feature. It also fits with the broader English usage around denominational labels: Unitarian and Presbyterian work perfectly well as both nouns and adjectives, so why do we think we're special.

Most Roman Catholic dioceses in Canada are incorporated as "the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of [Place]." One wonders what the part-of-speech fundamentalists would make of that.

Since the style guide of the church in question also recommends referring to it as The Episcopal Church, complete with indefensibly capitalized article, I wouldn't take it as gospel on its own when it comes to this sort of question.

[ 17. October 2015, 03:33: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It's about as dogmatically true as a universal as the assertion that Jackie, Jacqui, Jacquie or any of the various other permutations is the correct spelling for everyone everywhere because that's the way the person talking at the time happens to spell her version of it.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

The "Episcopal is an adjective; Episcopalian is a noun" maxim most assuredly does apply here. Indeed, the former is a proper adjective and the latter a proper noun. For whatever historical reasons, when the American province of the Anglican Communion was formed after independence had been gained, Anglicans here chose the adjective Episcopal as the principal word in their name. (OK, it was originally called the Protestant Episcopal Church, but it was always colloquially known, and later, legally known, as TEC.) The terms Presbyterian and Unitarian, mentioned here (the same evolution would apply to Lutheran) were originally only adjectives, but then were used by their founders as nouns, and incorporated as the civil and ecclesiastical names of those bodies. Curiously, in the case of Methodist and Baptist, the reverse occurred, and the chosen nouns evolved into also being used as adjectives.

The best religious linguistic analogy would be Congregational, which is the adjective, and Congregationalist, which is the noun.

The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name. As a result, the proper noun is not needed to refer to its communicants, and the common adjective episcopal retains its reference to the episcopacy in general. The Canadian example provided here also does not apply, as despite the use of the proper adjective Episcopal in the legal documents needed to incorporate RC dioceses under Canadian civil law, the RCC there does not refer to itself or any of its dioceses in this way in an ecclesiastical, or even social, context. It is simply a civil legal mechanism, and nothing else. Yet even in that context, the proper adjective is used correctly.

[ 17. October 2015, 12:49: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name.

Could have fooled me:
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/

Where do you think the Americans got it from?

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The Canadian example provided here also does not apply, as despite the use of the proper adjective Episcopal in the legal documents needed to incorporate RC dioceses under Canadian civil law, the RCC there does not refer to itself or any of its dioceses in this way in an ecclesiastical, or even social, context.

I'm not saying it "applies". But in my ears, the article in the sentence "I'm an Episcopalian" isn't syntactically indispensable. "I'm Episcopalian" sounds equally natural at least in spoken English, but if the maxim is elevated to a universal law then without the "an" you would need to say "I'm Episcopal." Which I expect would sound silly no matter where you're from.

Anyway, to respond to the point that produced this tangent, I don't think such titles for Our Lady are exclusively an Episcopal(ian) phenomenon. Many of the cathedrals and basilicas here in Québec are "Notre Dame de" [place], even if there was no particular image or apparition associated with the place. I don't think, for instance, that the Notre-Dame-de-Montréal basilica invokes any cultus of "Our Lady of Montréal". It just expresses the city's dedication (as was) to the Virgin in general.

[ 17. October 2015, 14:48: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

The father of a friend is buried at the Notre Dame des Neiges (OL of the Snows) cemetery and I have also attended an interment at Notre Dame des Bois (OL of the Woods), and ND des Victoires (OL of Victories). As Knopwood noted, they are sometimes just geographical-- the basilica in Québec City is Notre Dame de Québec; ND de Jacques Cartier had nothing to do with the explorer, but is in a district in Québec City; ND de Cap (OL of the Cape) is a geographical moniker as is ND des Champs (OL of the Fields) and ND des Prairies. Others indicate that this is a church of Our Lady in a particular township (ND de Stanbridge, ND de Lac Station, ND de Portneuf etc). ND de Ham is another township name, and has nothing to do with luncheon meat. One of my favourites is ND du Loup (OL of the Wolf).

Northern Irish shipmates may or may not be relieved that the church of Notre Dame de Stormont received the dedication of Saint Felix instead.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

The situation in the UK is indeed different, insofar as the church there does not include the proper adjective Episcopal as part of its name.
Could have fooled me:
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/

Where do you think the Americans got it from?

Apology--I meant England.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Aberdeen had a medieval "Our Lady of the Snow" church, long gone. It fell into disrepair following the Reformation, though legend says that secret masses were held in its ruins by those clinging to the Old Faith. The site of the Snow kirk became the Roman Catholic cemetery and it remains, tiny, muddy, neglected, with haphazard graves, utterly poignant.

The Snow cemetery is one of those places where time stops when you pass through the gates.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The Snow kirk(yard) in Aberdeen recalls one of the names of the Basilica of St Mary Major on the Esquiline Hill in Rome. The site was chosen for this major basilica after a 'miraculous' fall of snow on the Esquiline hill in the night of the 4th to the 5th August AD 355.

In the Roman liturgy the festival of our Lady of the Snows is kept on the 5th August.Within the basilica itself the event is commemorated with a fall of white rose petals from the dome of the building. Notre Dame des Neiges,Maria Schnee,Our Lady of the Snows is not too uncommon a dedication for a Catholic church.

Our Lady of the Snows was the name of the parish kirk in Old Aberdeen,as opposed to the cathedral of St Machar.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

Our Lady of Walsingham is important to high Anglicans, and not only in Norfolk, England. I gather that there is an Episcopal church dedicated to her in Florida, too.

The unsuccessful English "Personal Ordinariate" is also dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.

I had some correspondence on-line with a Roman Catholic about Marian apparitions. He told me that the only place he'd witnessed one was at the CofE shrine in Walsingham.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Our Lady of Coventry appears to have been commissioned and blessed by the RC Archbishop of Birmingham, so not just for Anglicans it seems. The BVM is patron of the entire universe so I can't see the cheek of local Marian devotions myself.

Also don't forget the other UK RC Marian shrines at Doncaster, Ipswich and Cardigan, and Knock in Ireland.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglicano:
Our Lady of Walsingham is important to high Anglicans, and not only in Norfolk, England. I gather that there is an Episcopal church dedicated to her in Florida, too.

The unsuccessful English "Personal Ordinariate" is also dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.

I had some correspondence on-line with a Roman Catholic about Marian apparitions. He told me that the only place he'd witnessed one was at the CofE shrine in Walsingham.

OK, I'll bite. Unsucessful?

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

OK, I'll bite. Unsucessful?

Er, we were told that this was a "seismic change", and possibly a further/final nail in the coffin of the CofE. But five years later the Ordinariate only has some 3,500 adherents and has had remarkably little impact. It depends how you define success. Would you prefer the word "insignificant"?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

And even fewer here. The much-forecast incorporation of the Church of Torres Strait, which would bring in about 9 or 10 thousand, has not happened and looks no closer now than when first mooted. With some good will all around, it's not too late for that church to become either an Anglican province of its own, or perhaps even come back into the Anglican Church of Australia.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Can Anglicano tell us a little more about the Marian apparition at Walsingham ?
Who were the visionaries ? How many people claim to have seen the apparition ?

Does the CofE shrine at Walsingham publicise the apparition ?

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

Can Anglicano tell us a little more about the Marian apparition at Walsingham ?
Who were the visionaries ? How many people claim to have seen the apparition ?

Does the CofE shrine at Walsingham publicise the apparition ?

I'm sorry, but I'll have to pass on that. I was in conversation with a RC poster on a now disbanded board and he told me that it was his experience.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Frankly, it sounds like bitter grapes to me. I don't recall Pope Benedict making predictions about seismic changes or nailed coffins when he created the ordinariate. I believe that it was church pundits who made such comments. It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America--but it seems to serve the spiritual needs of some.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

Frankly, it sounds like bitter grapes to me. I don't recall Pope Benedict making predictions about seismic changes or nailed coffins when he created the ordinariate. I believe that it was church pundits who made such comments. It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America--but it seems to serve the spiritual needs of some.

----------------------------------------

Bitter grapes?

The comment was made by Ruth Gledhill, religious affairs correspondent of The Times, a Murdoch newspaper, and reiterated more than once on the BBC (whose Director General and Chairman were both RC at the time). The relative lack of success of such a high profile initiative has been given little or no publicity.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

It was a response to a petition by Anglican bishops--admittedly mostly in North America

-------------------------------------

No the petition was from RCs, mainly clerics, in England. There are a disproportionately high number of priests to lay persons. One RC priest I know, who I cannot name, regards the whole thing as an embarrassment and finds it a matter of concern that an ex-Anglican RC priest can be married but he can't.

Posted by Anglicano (# 18476) on :

And even fewer here. The much-forecast incorporation of the Church of Torres Strait, which would bring in about 9 or 10 thousand, has not happened and looks no closer now than when first mooted. With some good will all around, it's not too late for that church to become either an Anglican province of its own, or perhaps even come back into the Anglican Church of Australia.
-------------------------------------------

I used to be a member of Anglican Forums, until I was banned for supporting Dr Welby on women bishops. Anyhow, in that forum you'll come across a whole range of reactionary ex-Anglican "churches", small in size but with plenty of bile.

I've followed the meanderings of John Hepworth with interest. I somehow doubt that Rome would be that keen to have him back, at least not as a priest.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Dear all,

This discussion of the Ordinariate (successful or otherwise) is not really appropriate for Ecclesiantics. Let's keep it to debate over Marian devotion.

Anglicano - I know you probably have no intention of doing so, but just a heads up not to import debates from other bulletin boards over here. We've had bad experiences of this in the past!

Thanks all for their cooperation...

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

With all due respect, the apparition of Our Lady to Richeldis at Walsingham in 1061 seems to me to be one of the most positive of such events, in that Herself (rather than just telling people to Be Good, Say Your Rosary, And Obey The Pope) was concerned that England should be forever reminded in a concrete manner of the importance of the Incarnation of Our Lord.

This is (IMHO) the great strength of Walsingham to this day, for Anglicans, RCs, and Orthodoxen alike.

Given the ambience of Walsingham (at its best, again IMHO, on a quiet autumn day like today - I find crowds difficult....), it's hardly surprising that people may have had visions of Herself in the years since 1061! More details would be welcome, of course, if there's anyone else out there who might be able to comment.......

Ian J.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
With all due respect, the apparition of Our Lady to Richeldis at Walsingham in 1061 seems to me to be one of the most positive of such events, in that Herself (rather than just telling people to Be Good, Say Your Rosary, And Obey The Pope) was concerned that England should be forever reminded in a concrete manner of the importance of the Incarnation of Our Lord.

This is (IMHO) the great strength of Walsingham to this day, for Anglicans, RCs, and Orthodoxen alike.

Yes, I think there is a lot to that. As is sometimes pointed out, the image of our Lady of Walsingham depicts Her holding aloft the Christchlild, and pointing to Him.

That seems to me to be the essence of Marian devotion - to bring us towards He whom she was 'meet to bear'.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I believe the statue of Our Lady of Fifth Avenue was carved by Mother Concordia Scott, who also carved the statues of Our Lady of Pew in Westminster Abbey and Our Lady Undercroft in Canterbury Cathedral.

The majority of such titles of Our Lady do not refer to apparitions, just popular devotions typically based on a well loved statue or icon, which may well be popularly associated with experiences of God's grace and protection.

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