Ship of Fools: Liturgists

Thread: Liturgists Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The Mystery Worshipper report for the Presbyterian Church in Eugene, Oregon tells us, "The Revd David Ukropina and the Revd Marta Ukropina, co-pastors, led the service, with the Revd David delivering the greeting and preaching, and the Revd Marta leading the prayers. The liturgist was Hazel Jones". I'm not clear what is meant here: I get the "greeting", the "preaching" and the "leading", both of the service and in prayers.

So what does the Liturgist do? It's certainly not a role I've come across in the Church of Scotland or the United Reformed Church. (And it sounds like a lot of people "up front" for a congregation of 90 people).

[ 26. October 2015, 14:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Well my understanding from higher church sources is that a liturgist is technically someone who writes/plans liturgy.

It is rarely used in URC as all worship leaders are expected to do it whether Ministers, Lay Preachers or part of the worship group.

In Anglican/ Roman Catholic church sources it is used for those who write the recognised liturgies. But might be used to those who take overall responsibility for a special service a bit like the director of worship liturgy rather than the writer.

I would expect in a Reformed setting a "liturgist" to act somewhere between a writer and director. That is they would shape the overall performance of worship, write any special prayers or other liturgical material required and maybe choreograph liturgical action.

This would be exceptional as the role is historically prescribed to the preacher but these seems to be a more collaborative approach to worship preparation than is usual.

Jengie

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Liturgists used to be people who studied liturgy (I'm thinking of the Alcuin Club, Dom Gregory Dix, and the like).

Nowadays, liturgists are people who pressure you to give up ancient practices (because we aren't living in 4th-century Greek fishing villages), and then pressure you to accept their new practices (because they're what the Early Church did).

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Clearly the liturgist here isn't just someone who studies liturgy - which is what I tended to think they are.

Stepping back to Jengie's post, ISTM from reading the MW report that the Liturgist played an active part in the worship. So: what did she do? (Or had she written the liturgy being used that day?)

Perhaps we should ask the reviewer? I'll PM them.

[ 26. October 2015, 16:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I can't, the name isn't listed in the Directory ...

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

I think I've heard some American mainline Protestants (vague memory of who here) refer to a regular Sunday morning role of 'liturgist' that seemed to be reasonably close to what I'd call emcee.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

Mr. Google finds me this from a Presbyterian source.

[ 26. October 2015, 17:43: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by Salicional (# 16461) on :

In our PC(USA) shack, the liturgist reads parts of the service such as the (responsive) call to worship, the first scripture lesson, and the offertory prayer. We have a half-dozen people who rotate in this role. Some of them are keen on digging up prayers on their own from various sources, while others prefer to have the pastor tell them exactly what to say.

The point, I suppose, is to have the congregation represented in the leadership of the service, so that it isn't all done by the 'professionals'.

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Mr. Google finds me this from a Presbyterian source.

If you are wearing a chasuble, select it and put it on, (from that document)
Words fail me: what WOULD John Knox say?

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Liturgists used to be people who studied liturgy (I'm thinking of the Alcuin Club, Dom Gregory Dix, and the like).

Nowadays, liturgists are people who pressure you to give up ancient practices (because we aren't living in 4th-century Greek fishing villages), and then pressure you to accept their new practices (because they're what the Early Church did).

'Liturgists are like Billy Goats: they have their uses, but one really fertile one can service an entire county'. (Anon.) [Devil]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Thank you, Salicional and LC.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:

Words fail me: what WOULD John Knox say?

Something something Popery, something something reprobate, something something idolatry, damned eternally.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

Oh I don't know. When Cottontail showed us round the High Kirk a couple of years ago, she pointed out the stand of votive candles on the side of the nave, directly facing the rather dour statue of John Knox. One of us commented at the time that if they ever wanted to locate his grave in what is now a parking lot, they should just listen for the sound of jet-speed whirling.

John

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've seen "liturgist" used to designate the person who says all the in-between bits of the service--the introit, the sursum corda, etc. etc. In my host church this is generally a seminary field worker getting experience before they trust him with a sermon. [Devil]

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

So the equivalent of our use of a 'Worship Leader' to plan and lead a 'Service of the Word' (with an authorised person preaching) in C of E usage?

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Right to make things clearer. Liturgist have to create liturgy, those who study it are liturgical scholars.

To put this into a Reformed context: John Hunter was a gifted liturgist, Horton Davies a gifted liturgical scholar.

Jengie

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It would still be an unusual term in Britain, if it means a person who (devises and) leads part of a (Presbyterian) service, I reckon. That would usually be seen as the Minister's job, for the most part.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

Whilst not dealing with the OP per se, as someone who is both a qualified liturgical scholar and a practicing liturgist in the Anglican tradition my role is designing liturgies Sunday by Sunday: choosing for all the services in all of the communities we have the music to be used (preludes, meditations, postludes, etc.), the hymns, selecting the readings of the day from the lectionary variables, writing the intercessions and where required perhaps special Thanksgivings, blessings, etc.

This is what I have been trained to do: the scholar and the practitioner are in my view two sides of the one coin. Having one without the other is doing one aspect of a role in a vacuum.

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

EL - purely as matter of interest, what in your view makes one a 'qualified liturgical scholar'?

Of course I totally agree with what you say, that the most authentic liturgical scholarship belongs rooted in pastoral reality. I often think the same about 'qualified Biblical scholars' who need to be rooted in the life of the community that hopes to live by that Book.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Yes an unusual term in UK. We tend to use recognised roles e.g minister, lay preacher/reader, elder

Jengie

[ 27. October 2015, 11:45: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
In our PC(USA) shack, the liturgist reads parts of the service such as the (responsive) call to worship, the first scripture lesson, and the offertory prayer. We have a half-dozen people who rotate in this role. Some of them are keen on digging up prayers on their own from various sources, while others prefer to have the pastor tell them exactly what to say.

The point, I suppose, is to have the congregation represented in the leadership of the service, so that it isn't all done by the 'professionals'.

"Liturgist" is commonly used in Presbyteriana in this way, to mean someone other than the minister who leads certain parts of the liturgy. Some of us have about given up on trying to tell those in charge what "liturgist" actually means. A lost cause I fear—along with the proper use of "Reverend."

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As in "We're pleased to have a Reverend with us this morning" or "In his address, Reverend Smith said ..."? [Devil]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Liturgists used to be people who studied liturgy (I'm thinking of the Alcuin Club, Dom Gregory Dix, and the like).

Nowadays, liturgists are people who pressure you to give up ancient practices (because we aren't living in 4th-century Greek fishing villages), and then pressure you to accept their new practices (because they're what the Early Church did).
'Liturgists are like Billy Goats: they have their uses, but one really fertile one can service an entire county'. (Anon.)

And the inevitable 'The difference between a liturgist and a terrorist is that one can negotiate with a terrorist.'

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As in "We're pleased to have a Reverend with us this morning" or "In his address, Reverend Smith said ..."?

The former ("a Reverend") has still not taken hold, thankfully. Minister, or if one is feeling particularly polity wonkish "teaching elder," is the go-to term there.

But it is the norm to read (or hear) "Rev. Lee Smith" or "Rev. Smith" instead of "the Rev. Lee Smith" or "the Rev. Dr. Smith." {sigh}

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

What is supposed to be a respectable news site here referred yesterday to a rector as "the reverend at the church"!!!!!!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I think I've even seen the BBC do that!

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
EL - purely as matter of interest, what in your view makes one a 'qualified liturgical scholar'?

A professional qualification in Liturgy/ liturgics/liturgical theology, which in my case is a post-grad. degree following on from my formal theological qualification.

And yes, I agree totally - both roles need to be rooted in practical application and formation: the two parts of the whole!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Back to the Liturgist ...

I note an online dictionary gived the definition

quote:

1.somebody who studies or compiles liturgies

2.somebody who performs the liturgy

3.somebody who favors using liturgies

My theological formation in OZ only ever acknowledged the form 1. However in NZ, which often follows ECUSA use 2 is frequent ... I've stamped it out in my parish by replacing it with "officiant" (in contradistinction to "presider"). Basically the old lay reader ... (who would incidentally over my dead body say/sing the Sursum Corda).

I've never seen the online dictionary's use 3.

[Disappointed]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

PS ... it may be borrowed from US Synagogue usage

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