Ship of Fools: MW Report 2936: St Paul's, Clifton, Bristol, England

Thread: MW Report 2936: St Paul's, Clifton, Bristol, England Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

We were very pleased with our report. It acknowledged the high standard of music and the rare mosaics.

However, as some of us talked about it, though it's good to see how outsiders see us, we wondered about some of the observations.

The reporter thought us to be quite posh and mentioned Harrods. It's true that Clifton Village, about half a mile away, is a bit like Sloane Square and London's West End, but apart from some hotels near the church, a lot of our parish is student bed-sitter land. The road beind the church qualifies (single parent familes, housing benefit etc.) as an area of 'urban deprivation'.

The reporter thought us to be 'heavily catholic' - our parish profile, when we last advertised for a vicar, described us as 'liberal catholic'. So we reserve the sacrament, see the eucharist as our central act of worship, vestments, and do a Holy Week 'with full catholic privileges' but our worship stye is only slightly higher than MOTR because of our connection with the university and the subsequent need to appeal to allcomers. We also tend to get people who have grown out of evangelical churches and don't want to put them off.

The 'university chaplaincy' is at one step removed - the senior anglican chaplain was, for many decades, also the vicar of our church but since the chaplaincy became multi-faith that was no longer appropriate. However, 95% of university buildings are within our parish boundaries and the various denominations in the area now descibe themselves as 'university chaplaincy church', the senior anglican chaplain uis still on our ministry team (albeit no longer incumbent but paid at incumbent status) and we get many big university weddings and funerals. The Advent Carol Service is crammed with students. We also host lots of university concerts. But it isn't like the old days when a newcomer was likely to be asked 'Which department are you in?'

Most mystifying was the reference to perfume. Those who were there tell me that they don't recall any.

Anyway, the choir and preacher were pleased with the report. So was I (though relieved that I had preached the week BEFORE!)

[ 01. November 2015, 16:16: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

It is certainly true that Bristol University has a reputation for accepting "posh" students and that as a ward Clifton East is one of the least deprived in England. Some of the streets are slightly worse than average on some scores of deprivation. But it is far from the worst in Bristol or other inner city areas in England. Overall, the whole Clifton and Downs area is green, leafy and wealthy. Just a fact.

I think your other points are determined by the perceptions of the observer. From what you and the MWer have said, I think "heavily catholic" is a reasonable statement, but YMMV. I guess it depends what you compare it to.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Churches that use incense have a particular smell. To a visitor, the aroma is very noticeable even on a day when no incense has been used. Or maybe it's just the brand of air freshener that the cleaners use!

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

...or the lady in the next pew. Some people seem to like to bathe in the stuff before they go out. If you happen to be sitting within ten feet or so of one of those, you won't smell anything else.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Knowing the area, Clifton is not 'upper class', and certainly not in the way somewhere like Cirencester might be. Apart from a few parts of London, cities in Britain are almost never 'upper class'.

I endorse and agree with Leo's description both of the area and his parish.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Having been to Leo's church a couple of years back it struck me as being the high side of MOTR. I wouldn't describe it as being 'heavily Catholic' - I suppose All Saints Clifton could be described as such. I suppose though you could describe it as being 'liberal Catholic'?

What I was impressed with was the friendliness of the people there - it was an August Sunday IIRC

I suppose Clifton is a mixture of student-land and people who are financially well off, although Redland next door struck me as being a seriously expensive place in which to live - but I might be wrong

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

A phrase like "heavily Catholic" is very subjective - if you come from an evangelical or low church background then high side of middle probably feels heavily Catholic. A few months ago the Radio 4 service was from Methodist Central Hall, Westminster. In an online discussion of it (not here) another Methodist condemned it for being "high Anglo-Catholic" which is not remotely the churchmanship of MCHW. I think it was the fact they used responses during the prayers and a Taize Kyrie...

[ 02. November 2015, 10:10: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
A phrase like "heavily Catholic" is very subjective - if you come from an evangelical or low church background then high side of middle probably feels heavily Catholic. A few months ago the Radio 4 service was from Methodist Central Hall, Westminster. In an online discussion of it (not here) another Methodist condemned it for being "high Anglo-Catholic" which is not remotely the churchmanship of MCHW. I think it was the fact they used responses during the prayers and a Taize Kyrie...

I can believe that. Other people's perceptions can be really quite surprising, and sometimes amusingly shocking sometimes.

My UK childhood parish at the time was perhaps lower side of middle: vestments, altar candles, reservation, but no Marian devotions, no devotions to other saints, no incense, no lights in the procession, no images, no elevations (apart from the collection plate), no culture of confession, nothing sung apart from hymns and a few selected parts of the ordinary, minimal ceremonial, Gospel read by a lay person from an A5 sheet, no Good Friday Liturgy, no Easter Vigil, and so forth. This was unbearably low for me and I left when I was 17.

However, prior to my departure, I went to a local ecumenical service and saw a couple I recognised as my neighbours from around the corner. After the service, they asked me which church I belonged to. When I answered, the response came, 'Oh, they're very high church there, aren't they?' I laughed, thinking that they were making a joke. It's only when I saw their confused expressions that I realised they were being serious and I awkwardly apologised.

The reason why they had called it high church: the choir of 4 or 5 people a) wore robes and b) walked in and out behind the Cross. That was it. They were URC and to them this was "high".

So I can understand that the MWer here may have encountered a thing or two that may have been perceived as high but which to anyone else would have been unremakrable.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

You get it from the other direction too. I once knew somebody who described Manchester Cathedral as "Happy Clappy" because it wasn't as high up the candle as he was used to.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

After consultation, the reporter agrees that "liberal" would have been the better choice of words and has suggested an amendment to the report that has now been made.

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
You get it from the other direction too. I once knew somebody who described Manchester Cathedral as "Happy Clappy" because it wasn't as high up the candle as he was used to.

I wouldn't have used the term "happy clappy" but depending on how far back this was, he may not have been that far off if he was describing it as low.

Under the current dean and chapter things have improved but I remember when anything with even a whiff of high churchery (the use of the chasuble, holy images, &c) was relegated to the Lady Chapel, where the Sacrament is reserved, for people who like That Sort Of Thing™. Anywhere else it was plain as plain could be: no images, stoles at a maximum for the mass, (with copes permitted on Sundays). Servers existed only to carry the cross and lights in and out but otherwise the ceremonial was minimal. Any practical assistance at the offertory was done by vergers.

These days the chasuble is worn more liberally, including at the sung mass on Sundays, and there are two or three icons dotted around, one even with a votive stand, (although one of the vergers did admit to me that the stand is deliberately placed directly in front of the icon so as to prevent veneration.) There is a now a Gospel procession and the servers actually serve.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
A few months ago the Radio 4 service was from Methodist Central Hall, Westminster. In an online discussion of it (not here) another Methodist condemned it for being "high Anglo-Catholic" which is not remotely the churchmanship of MCHW. I think it was the fact they used responses during the prayers and a Taize Kyrie...

A friend of mine belongs to the United Church of Canada: he is of Scottish extraction and both the congregation he grew up in and the one he currently attends were Presbyterian churches prior to 1925. He once attended Metropolitan United in Toronto, which was historically known as the "Methodist cathedral," and found it stratospheric, in large part because the choir at one point apparently sang an anthem in a non-English language which was not translated in the bulletin.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
You get it from the other direction too. I once knew somebody who described Manchester Cathedral as "Happy Clappy" because it wasn't as high up the candle as he was used to.
I wouldn't have used the term "happy clappy" but depending on how far back this was, he may not have been that far off if he was describing it as low.

This was fairly recently, about four or five years ago. There was a choral mass setting (I know because I was in the choir), clergy in Eucharistic vestments and a Gospel procession of sorts. The place isn't as high as some of the cathedrals where we sing, but certainly not "happy clappy". I'm not even sure I'd describe it as "low".

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I wonder whether those who think something is terribly catholic have ever been to an RC parish Sunday mass in England. Unlikely to see a robed choir, crucifer or even acolytes or incense.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

PS. If a robed choir offends your protestant susceptibilities, you should go to Brompton Oratory where the choir are out of sight in the organ loft.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wonder whether those who think something is terribly catholic have ever been to an RC parish Sunday mass in England. Unlikely to see a robed choir, crucifer or even acolytes or incense.

I was talking to someone once who was considering joining the RC church because she was fed up with (as she put it) "vicars in jeans playing guitars". I pointed out that she would probably see far more of that in the RC church than in the CofE

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

It might be nuns.
But yes, when I've been to Mass with my RC brother and his family- absolutely cracking church, by the way, very good and prayerful and accessible too- the Mass setting does seem to be something like 'The Spinners in C'.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wonder whether those who think something is terribly catholic have ever been to an RC parish Sunday mass in England. Unlikely to see a robed choir, crucifer or even acolytes or incense.

I wonder if those who think an English cathedral is happy clappy have ever been to an African Pentecostal church.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Albertus: It might be nuns.

In jeans?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

No, not in jeans [Smile]

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, not in jeans

Jeans, sensible shoes and "social justice haircuts" may well be de rigeur. [Biased]

In my limited experience of the Catholic Church in England, robed servers (including one carrying the cross) are pretty common. Incense much less so, and robed choirs very rare.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

AFAIK RC nuns (at least the non-cloistered ones who would be at a regular parish service) have dropped the habit more rapidly than their Anglican counterparts - so jeans are presumably reasonably common.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
AFAIK RC nuns (at least the non-cloistered ones who would be at a regular parish service) have dropped the habit more rapidly than their Anglican counterparts - so jeans are presumably reasonably common.

Yep. There's a RC order near me where the sisters all wear casual clothes, usually including jeans and trainers. The only giveaways that they are nuns are the pectoral cross and the "wedding ring" on the right hand.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I was envisaging elderly ones in heavy duty crimplene and grey cardigans. Or maybe fleeces. And Hotter shoes.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
It might be nuns.
But yes, when I've been to Mass with my RC brother and his family- absolutely cracking church, by the way, very good and prayerful and accessible too- the Mass setting does seem to be something like 'The Spinners in C'.

Nuns?Nuns!

You'll make me channel Father Jack very soon ....

[ 05. November 2015, 07:01: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
AFAIK RC nuns (at least the non-cloistered ones who would be at a regular parish service) have dropped the habit more rapidly than their Anglican counterparts - so jeans are presumably reasonably common.

The BBC recently ran a story on nouveau nuns, which is certainly an interesting way to answer the query: "I wonder what my old friends from uni are up to these days." Most of what I know about catholicism, I learned from Theo.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Earlier this year, Vice ran a story on young British women becoming nuns. My jaw dropped on seeing that they didn't interview a single member of the Church of England.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I fear that is because very few young women are becoming C of E nuns.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

Well, I rather thought the unusualness of it was why they chose in the first place to run an article on those women who are doing so! Either way, it seems odd to erase the established church from any mention, even if only to note (if it indeed be the case) that young vocations are less common in it.

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