Thread: A BIT OF CHRISTIAN FRIENDLINESS, PLEASE? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by PRESBY DUDE (# 16035) on :
 
Just a brief comment, as I haven't commented on line for a year or two. One small grumble, if I may, then I'll retreat into contemplative silence.

In October, my better half and I spent two weeks in London. As we're Presbies, on our first Sunday, we attended a Church of Scotland in the Covent Garden area. The congregation was friendly and welcoming. We felt quite at home. We'd attend there again. For a small church, the music was quite good as well.

The next Sunday, we thought that an Anglican church might provide a pleasant change. As we've visited the "biggies" (Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral) on several previous London visits, we sought out another large building but a somewhat lesser known congregation---this one, which shall remain unnamed, was in the Chelsea area.

Although the Sunday attendance was sparse indeed, almost to the point of being embarrassingly slim, nary a soul returned our hopeful smiles or spoke a solitary word to us. The usher handed us the morning service leaflet without a word, as he was busy chatting with a friend. The priest's after-service handshake was decidedly "cold fish", nor did he exchange any words with us.

Let's be blunt. The UK has a distinct problem with church attendance, by and large. Although the USA formerly did considerably better, we're also experiencing fewer regular attendees, fewer new members, and yes, less income. It's not so "popular" - whatever that means - to be a Christian these days.

What if we'd been newcomers to the Christian faith?
Such a cool reception would hardly urge us to darken the doors on the next Sunday....or any other Sunday.

I'm not one who thinks that we should hug the newcomers and bestow gifts upon them (some American churches overdo it), but some warm smiles and several members' friendly welcomes after service -whether in London or in St. Louis - would be
thoughtful and appropriate. As the old hymn says, "Blest be the tie that binds our hearts in Christian love...." (Do you sing that old warhorse in the UK?)

All right, then. I've had my say! And I suppose that one friendly church out of two isn't altogether terrible.
 

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Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
As a very proud Londoner, I feel embarrassed that you received such a shameful reception. I would say though that I am certain I know which church you went to, and the experience you received there would be unlikely to be repeated elsewhere.

Central London has so many Anglican churches, for example within a mile radius of Sloane Square there are 9 Anglican churches, all bar two are well attended and have a reputation for fellowship after the service. Holy Trinity Sloane Square, for example is often standing room only.

None of this excuses what happened to you, and I hope you will return and have a more positive experience next time.
 

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Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
Sorry some of my reply got felled. Some of the over-provision of Anglican churches in central London sometimes lends itself to eclectic congregations, a few of whom are very insular. Most however will be welcoming and invite all to refreshments after the service.
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
Oh. That’s not good. I'm sorry your experience was less than happy.

Welcomers walk a fine line. Some first time attendees want to be fussed over and chatted with. Others don’t mind normal British politeness (“Alright? The coffee is thataway"). Others want the briefest of eye contact as they scuttle into their seats and off into the night afterwards.

That said, for the person who’s handing out the service sheets etc to be more interested in chatting to a mate than doing the welcoming is a bit meh. They had one job! They could always talk to their mate later.

I can’t comment on the vicar. Some I know have the happy gift of spotting newcomers whilst others have been known to ask people who’ve been coming to the church for years if they’re new.

Tubbs
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Pretty much what everybody else has said. Now that I'm a churchwarden I make a point of talking to people I haven't seen at our place before, if someone else (often the director of music, always on the lookout for likely recruits) hasn't done so first. I'd rather have the slight embarrassment of mistaking a fairly new person for a very new one, than that a newcomer should not be welcomed.
Many years ago I popped into St Margarets Westminster one snowy Sunday morning- smallish congregation, very much 'church and state' CofE- and received a welcome of understated warmth that is still a pleasure to recall.

[ 26. November 2015, 09:42: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
One of my usual things is to look around at coffee hour and see if anybody's standing by themselves, esp. if looking awkward. Then I go and say good morning. I have to do this REALLY carefully, as I have face blindness, and it's just as likely to be the choir director or new pastor (!) as to be an actual visitor. So my opening gambits are really, really bland, just in case.
 

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
This is one scene of which we are all guilty, me included. Often after church I am too busy catching up with people I know rather than talking to strangers. I admit to being rather gauche socially and find it difficult to talk to people I don't know. However, when visiting a new church, I do try to go up to people and engage them in conversation but only if I can break into the closed circles that often form. All churches need to learn to be more hospitable, but there is also a responsibility on visitors to try a bit harder to engage with people.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I was never comfortable with it until I became churchwarden. I'm much more comfortable now introducing myself to people in my capacity as an officer of the church rather than as just 'plain old Albertus and why is he sticking his beak into this'?
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
A telling critique, Presby, and one too often repeated. If you came to my pad you'd get a reasonable welcome as long as you were 60 +, un-tattooed or pierced, and ethnically anglo-saxon.

Though we pride ourselves in being progressive and liberal. Just don't join us.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I've stepped into churches where the fake gushing smiles have made me cringe, others where I've slipped in and out unnoticed, with nobody at all making eye contact. Both were as bad as each other.

The problem is that we're all looking for something different. When I first attended, all I wanted was to be given a service sheet and to be allowed and feel welcome to sit quietly at the back and to quickly leave with no fuss. A smile and a nod would help me to feel as if I was not intruding. Now, I would want to stay and to introduce myself, and would be disappointed if no-one was interested in meeting me.

Communication takes two. Sensitivity is paramount, but perhaps none of us are as sensitive as we could be.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
'Sensitivity is paramount' - O how true, but how difficult to achieve!



for all greeters/sidespersons/churchwardens/clergy/ministers or whatever, as they try to carry out what must be one of the most difficult and thankless tasks known to Christendom.......

I.
 

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Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 

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Originally posted by Zappa:
A telling critique, Presby, and one too often repeated. If you came to my pad you'd get a reasonable welcome as long as you were 60 +, un-tattooed or pierced, and ethnically anglo-saxon.

Though we pride ourselves in being progressive and liberal. Just don't join us.

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Zappa: I think your folks will have a surprise or two coming when they get to heaven!
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I'm going to start a new business, selling visitor ribbons or badges to churches. There will be a basket of them by the entrance, and you choose a black one if you want to be left alone, a blue one if you want a "hello" and a friendly smile, a green one if you'd like a bit of a chat and an invitation to coffee, a yellow one if you want a hug and a chance to share your life history, etc. etc. That way everyone gets greeted in the style they prefer (and I'll make a fortune!).

 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

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Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I think your folks will have a surprise or two coming when they get to heaven!

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Originally posted by Zappa:

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Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I think your folks will have a surprise or two coming when they get to heaven!

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You're not wrong ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I'm going to start a new business, selling visitor ribbons or badges to churches. There will be a basket of them by the entrance, and you choose a black one if you want to be left alone, a blue one if you want a "hello" and a friendly smile, a green one if you'd like a bit of a chat and an invitation to coffee, a yellow one if you want a hug and a chance to share your life history, etc. etc. That way everyone gets greeted in the style they prefer (and I'll make a fortune!).

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Our Welcoming Committee is working on improving our parish's process of greeting visitors and incorporating new attenders into the life of our congregation. Maybe I'll pass this idea along to them.

 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Al Eluia:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I'm going to start a new business, selling visitor ribbons or badges to churches. There will be a basket of them by the entrance, and you choose a black one if you want to be left alone, a blue one if you want a "hello" and a friendly smile, a green one if you'd like a bit of a chat and an invitation to coffee, a yellow one if you want a hug and a chance to share your life history, etc. etc. That way everyone gets greeted in the style they prefer (and I'll make a fortune!).

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Our Welcoming Committee is working on improving our parish's process of greeting visitors and incorporating new attenders into the life of our congregation. Maybe I'll pass this idea along to them.

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Be sure to send me my royalty check.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Some congregations do themselves a real disservice by being unwelcoming. I've known small insular congregations who are, in community life, and in church activity supportive, generous and truly Christian. But who worship-wise just seem to go through the motions and will only speak when spoken to, no matter how obvious it is that a new person is among them. In certain cases I think this is partially cultural - a reflection of eg, how close rural groups can be reserved and distant with strangers. But quite happy for others to join, participate and assimilate over time. It's just disappointing that that initial friendliness that would help that process get started can be lacking.

However, by the same token there is no guarantee that apparently warm, welcoming congregations make for a great place to find spiritual care and nourishment.

As a visitor I'd hate to be ignored completely when dropping in on a strange church. They'd have muffed their one chance to make a good impact on me. But if moving into an area and looking for a new place to go, I'd persist beyond the superficial welcome or lack of it to see what the individuals were like as time went by.

One of the most spiritually important churches to me, at a crucial time, was a 'dead' looking handful of fairly unprepossessing worshippers, who certainly did not extend much of the hand of friendship for my initial visits, as a fellow congregation member.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I am sorry to hear that you got an unwelcome response in London. As a Creamtealand resident, regular trips to the big city took me right out of my comfort zone - but I found most city centre churches very welcoming. Admittedly this was for mid-week services (perhaps Sundays are different), but I was quietly welcome, gentle questions asked about why I was there, and refreshments offered. Being a church in a big, anonymous city really is no excuse.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think that a lot depends on where and when you roll up - I'm not just thinking of churches now but the UK in general ... I've known US visitors who say they've been bowled over by the hospitality they've received - particularly 'up north' or over in the west of the country ... whilst others have felt they'd received a particularly frosty welcome ...

The mileage varies.

London in general isn't noted for its friendliness, but it can offer pleasant surprises at times.
 

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
I think this happens everywhere. I once worked in Norway and attended a large city church, where nobody even acknowledged my existence.

When we lived in Coventry (English Midlands), which is generally a friendly place, for a while we regularly attended a service where people clearly knew my name but still thought other people were more interesting to talk to. If that "blanking" happens once or twice you tend to put it down to accident, but when it becomes a pattern you begin to think there is an "in-crowd" of which you are not a part.

On the other end of the scale, we once struggled to get away from a service where we felt extremely uncomfortable because the clergy-person insisted on talking at us for about 10 minutes and attempting to shoehorn life details out of us.

Sometimes people want space, want to be anonymous and do not want to chitchat. It doesn't take a whole lot of brain to see when someone feels uncomfortable being interviewed by you, in my opinion.

I'd just make the point that getting the balance right for every person can be hard. That said, there is no excuse for at very least acknowledging someone's existence - saying hello but also accepting that there might be a reason why they do not want to become fast friends with you.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
This is a thorny thicket indeed - you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't!

If anyone asks you to be a sidesperson/greeter or whatever, they are a Visitation of Satan - FLEE!

I.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
While I tend to agree, I think that that a greeter should at least say, "Good morning" and offer a smile. After all, that's what ushers at theatres or concert-halls are trained to do, and no-one should feel that their privacy is being violated by such an interaction.

But after that it is surely a matter of the greeter gauging the response and continuing (or not) the conversation as appropriate. This definitely does need a lot of sensitivity though!
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes - 'Hallo - good to see you - welcome to St. Faithful-in-the-Backstreets! The service is in the pink booklet, and this is the hymnbook. Do please feel free to come up to the altar rail for Communion or a blessing, and we've coffee and cake in the Hall after Mass'.

Holy Spirit - over to you.......

I.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
You forgot the bit about asking to Gift Aid the offering envelopes ... surely the Most Important bit!

[ 30. November 2015, 16:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
BT - seriously, do you think we say too much? It might not all be said at the same time, or by the same person(s).....

.....I admit I am a bit sensitive about this matter, which might mean that I try too hard...

I.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

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Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
[...]We sought out another large building but a somewhat lesser known congregation---this one, which shall remain unnamed, was in the Chelsea area.

Although the Sunday attendance was sparse indeed, almost to the point of being embarrassingly slim, nary a soul returned our hopeful smiles or spoke a solitary word to us. The usher handed us the morning service leaflet without a word, as he was busy chatting with a friend. The priest's after-service handshake was decidedly "cold fish", nor did he exchange any words with us.

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BT - seriously, do you think we say too much? It might not all be said at the same time, or by the same person(s).....

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I think SvitlanaV2's got it about right ...

I've not found London as unfriendly as it can be portrayed, but it's certainly not the friendliest part of the UK ... and it's probably little different in that respect than most mega-cities.

There are a whole range of factors at play, not only in church congregations but in particular districts and particular towns. My twin brother (yes, there are two of me ...) once worked in Cheltenham for 18 months. It's an attractive town, it's close to the Cotswolds, it's got a lot going for it, but he hated it. He couldn't wait to get back to our native South Wales - he found it the least friendly place he's ever been. Other people may have found it otherwise.

The Potteries (Stoke on Trent) are generally reckoned to be friendly - and I've certainly found them so (I live just outside) and I know someone from Stoke who lived and worked in London for a while. He told me that he saw the same bloke on the bus going into work for several days at a stretch, so one day he tried to engage him in conversation - as you would in the Midlands and up North - only to be asked, 'Do I fahrkin' know you?'

Not a response you'd get up here. That said, his business partner also told me of an incident he'd once witnessed on a train from Euston as it pulled into Stoke - his stop. As he was getting off the train two London businessmen were looking out of the window and commenting disparagingly and mockingly about Stoke on Trent. A 'Stokie' who was also alighting from the train overheard them, turned and without warning punched one of the Londoners full in the face. That shut him up but I'm sure it didn't endear him to 'The Five Towns' (well, there are six actually ...)

I've got to be honest, though, I wouldn't particularly expect much of a warm welcome in a London church - unless it was some kind of effusive evangelical place.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
I am sorry to hear that you got an unwelcome response in London. As a Creamtealand resident, regular trips to the big city took me right out of my comfort zone - but I found most city centre churches very welcoming. Admittedly this was for mid-week services (perhaps Sundays are different), but I was quietly welcome, gentle questions asked about why I was there, and refreshments offered. Being a church in a big, anonymous city really is no excuse.

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, but you bain't from round 'ere, be you...

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, but you bain't from round 'ere, be you...

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But I was! And, by then I could sound enough like a local to pass muster ...

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
when my brother-in-law was the pastor of a very rural church in central Texas, we would urge us to visit at Xmas and of course go to the services. He said I was good for them. (I do not look anythhing like any resident of rural central Texas that there ever was.) I replied that to maximize mind-broadening he really should get my daughter in there, who combines all the ethnic issues with a captaincy in the US Army.

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Originally posted by Albertus:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Oh, but you bain't from round 'ere, be you...

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But I was! And, by then I could sound enough like a local to pass muster ...

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Arr, you thinks so, but you bain't foolin us, comin' down here with your exogamy and your normally-spaced eyes and your fancypants Fenland-Mancunian ways...

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Apologies- now why did I think you were? Oh, I know, mixing you up with Mark-in-Manchester.
but you still bain't from round 'ere...

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I moved (back, after university) to a Cream-tea-Land town 10 miles away from the village where my parents live and both my paternal grandparents are buried and was regarded as an incomer. Even when the local undertaker, who'd buried both my grandparents, pointed out to some of the frostier individuals that I really was far more local and with deeper roots than them. When I dug a bit, one of my sisters had been in the same class at school with a neighbour (same secondary school catchment area).

Bless him, that undertaker did point out quite a few times that I was a local through various comments.

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Now that does sound like the little white town to me or even the bastion on the hill
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Wherever it might be, who would actually want to move back to a place with a shi**y attitude like that?



I.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Now that does sound like the little white town to me or even the bastion on the hill

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Wherever it might be, who would actually want to move back to a place with a shi**y attitude like that?



I.

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