Ship of Fools: MWs

Thread: MWs Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 06 January, 2016 12:02 :

Figured I would shamelessly draw attention to a few of my 2015 MWs, in case you wanted to see what my year has been like:

2964: St Andrew's Cathedral, Singapore http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2964.html

2959: Trinity Church, Bay City, Michigan, USA http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2959.html

2955: Schiphol Airport Chaplaincy, Amsterdam, the Netherlands http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2955.html

2947: Grace Episcopal, Astoria, Oregon, USA http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2947.html

2818: St John's, Lauli'i, American Samoa http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2918.html

2903: St John the Divine, Tamuning, Guam http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2903.html

2920: St Mark's, Honolulu, Hawaii http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2920.html

2917: Cathedral of St Andrew, Honolulu, Hawaii http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2917.html

2891: All Saints, Traverse City, Michigan, USA
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2891.html

2844: St Andrew's, Gaylord, Michigan, USA http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2844.html

2868: Christ Church, Calumet, Michigan, USA http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2868.html

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on 06 January, 2016 15:05 :

Quite the jet-setter.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on 06 January, 2016 15:26 :

If you were to do a meta-report, what would you say was the experience of the year that most felt like being in Heaven, and which felt most like being in.. the other place?
What is the thing that you will remember most from those visits this past year?

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on 06 January, 2016 16:09 :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Quite the jet-setter.

If Meet and Right So to Do is a jet-setter, can I be a bus-setter, given that all mine fell within a circle with a radius of 4 miles?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on 06 January, 2016 16:29 :

Provided that the buses ran on Sundays, and that you used them to get to and from church!

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on 06 January, 2016 16:34 :

Mostly. I did use the London Overground for one.

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 06 January, 2016 18:36 :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
If you were to do a meta-report, what would you say was the experience of the year that most felt like being in Heaven, and which felt most like being in.. the other place?
What is the thing that you will remember most from those visits this past year?

Good questions.

I'd say MW 2891: All Saints, Traverse City, Michigan, USA was the best in all respects, especially considering the physical limitations of the worship space and tiny size of the congregation.

MW 2964: St Andrew's Cathedral, Singapore and MW 2818: St John's, Lauli'i, American Samoa seemed to be the most genuine expressions of faith, which probably isn't a surprise given the evangelical inclinations of Anglicans--and Christians in general--in those locales.

MW 2917: Cathedral of St Andrew, Honolulu, Hawaii was the most unexpected, as it's a cathedral in the middle of the Pacific on a tropical paradise. Yet it was very classic Anglican, minus contemporary wording in the liturgy.

The rest were either going through the motions or were visibly struggling congregations, which is fairly commonplace in the Episcopal Church these days.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on 06 January, 2016 22:50 :

I find myself wondering, how many MW'ers manage 10 or more reports in a calendar year? I've been doing this for eight years, and have never managed more than 6. (It's more work than I envisaged when signing up).

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 06 January, 2016 23:43 :

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I find myself wondering, how many MW'ers manage 10 or more reports in a calendar year? I've been doing this for eight years, and have never managed more than 6. (It's more work than I envisaged when signing up).

I travel a lot for work.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on 07 January, 2016 00:24 :

As I re-read my post, it could be read as snarky; that was not intended - I'm impressed by those who can produce close to a report a month (or more).

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 07 January, 2016 01:02 :

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I find myself wondering, how many MW'ers manage 10 or more reports in a calendar year?

Dear Torold, may she rest in peace, was quite prolific. There are others as well. Personally I've backed off a bit. I do use several names, though, but I'm sure my style gives me away.

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 07 January, 2016 01:45 :

It would be great if the reporters were indexed somehow, so you could easily see someone's past reports.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 07 January, 2016 03:13 :

Yes, I've long advocated that, but it looks like the Second Coming is more likely to occur than changes to the Board software. [Frown]

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on 07 January, 2016 09:17 :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I find myself wondering, how many MW'ers manage 10 or more reports in a calendar year?
Dear Torold, may she rest in peace, was quite prolific. There are others as well. Personally I've backed off a bit. I do use several names, though, but I'm sure my style gives me away.

Didn't know multiple names was permitted. Interesting to know.

Think I started out quite prolific as I began when I moved home and found there were no MW reports in my area, so I did 1 per week as I was looking for a church to call home.

I've tried to do 1 per month, as my church doesn't get use of the building every week, though sometimes the lure of the hills to go walking is too much to resist on the spare Sunday.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 07 January, 2016 11:28 :

quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Didn't know multiple names was permitted.

So long as we know who you really are (which we do), it's allowed. Torold herself used about half a dozen. There are others who alternate among two or three.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on 07 January, 2016 11:56 :

quote:
There are others who alternate among two or three.

You can't alternate between three options. (But I don't know what you are supposed to do!)

Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on 07 January, 2016 14:42 :

quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:

Think I started out quite prolific as I began when I moved home and found there were no MW reports in my area, so I did 1 per week as I was looking for a church to call home.

As someone living in a not-too-distant area, currently looking for a church, you have no idea how useful this is [Biased]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 07 January, 2016 15:20 :

quote:
You can't alternate between three options. (But I don't know what you are supposed to do!)

Alternate among them, perhaps. OK, OK, I know I should have written rotate among. Let's get back to the thread, shall we?

[ 07. January 2016, 15:10: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on 07 January, 2016 18:28 :

In December, I attended a service at Heathrow. I was the only one [Smile]

Glad to see there were 14 at Schiphol.

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 18 January, 2016 13:21 :

My first of 2016:
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/2967.html
2967: St James, Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, USA

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on 19 January, 2016 05:22 :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
My first of 2016:
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/2967.html
2967: St James, Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, USA

I thought these were Mystery Worshipper reports. Our late friend Ken has shown many times that he could trace Shipmates in a few minutes and reveal info about them. If he could do it, many others probably can too.

I enjoy the hint of mystery about the writer.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on 19 January, 2016 13:56 :

quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
My first of 2016:
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/2967.html
2967: St James, Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, USA

Admin note:

Although we encourage Mystery Worship reporters to comment on threads started by other people about their reports, the use of the boards to promote their own reports is discouraged.

Ta muchly

Spike
SoF Admin

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on 19 January, 2016 16:52 :

There are plenty of examples here of non RCs objecting to not being allowed to receive communion.

The Amersterdam Airport report almost seemed the opposite, objecting to receiving RC communion.

Posted by Meet and Right So to Do (# 18532) on 28 January, 2016 23:41 :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There are plenty of examples here of non RCs objecting to not being allowed to receive communion.

The Amersterdam Airport report almost seemed the opposite, objecting to receiving RC communion.

Interesting: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/finnish-catholic-spokesman-communion-for-lutherans-at-the-vatican-was-a-mis

A bunch of Finnish Lutherans received communion at St. Peter's in Rome.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on 30 January, 2016 14:30 :

The Anglican/Old-Catholic Chaplain who was scheduled to celebrate the Eucharist on the Sunday in question,told me recently that since he was unable to be present in the Schiphol Airport Chapel that Sunday, his R.C. colleague was so kind as to step in.It would have been correct if this had been informed to the worshippers.
However it was quite natural that the sacrament was given to all the baptised Christians,who presented. themselves for communion.This is an Anglican/Old Catholic practise.
Although Rome does not allow open-communion,there is big difference between theory and practise e.g. the founder of the Taizé Community Roger Schütz, was given communion at the funeral mass for the late Pope John Paul II.
Furthermore it is a fact that quite a number of non R.C.Christians receive communion at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.
In addition to this,German,French and Polish Catholics receive the Eucharist at Anglican altars in London.
Our Saviour Jesus Christ has instituted the Eucharist not only for Roman-Catholics or Eastern-Orthodox.
Would He refuse his followers at the Christian Altars ?

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on 30 January, 2016 16:31 :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
The Anglican/Old-Catholic Chaplain who was scheduled to celebrate the Eucharist on the Sunday in question,told me recently that since he was unable to be present in the Schiphol Airport Chapel that Sunday, his R.C. colleague was so kind as to step in.It would have been correct if this had been informed to the worshippers.
However it was quite natural that the sacrament was given to all the baptised Christians,who presented. themselves for communion.This is an Anglican/Old Catholic practise.
Although Rome does not allow open-communion,there is big difference between theory and practise e.g. the founder of the Taizé Community Roger Schütz, was given communion at the funeral mass for the late Pope John Paul II.
Furthermore it is a fact that quite a number of non R.C.Christians receive communion at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.
In addition to this,German,French and Polish Catholics receive the Eucharist at Anglican altars in London.
Our Saviour Jesus Christ has instituted the Eucharist not only for Roman-Catholics or Eastern-Orthodox.
Would He refuse his followers at the Christian Altars ?

I think it fair to say that the question is rather more complex. The point is that most non-catholic or Orthodox Christians do not hold the Eucharist to be what those churches hold it to be. I think it fair to understand that if you do hold the consecrated species to be Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity (as Aquinas averred) then you would wish to protect the most holy thing known on earth. And that would include not regularly offering it to Christians who believe it to be bread and wine only.

The Roman Catholic Church does permit non-Catholics to receive under certain circumstances. Taize is one example. The nuptial mass of a Catholic to a non-Catholic can be another.

The RC Church also permits Orthodox to receive, but the Orthodox Churches do not permit their people to receive in Catholic churches, being doubtful if grace exists in the heretical western church while it is schism.

Furthermore, open communion is very recent. As an Anglican I was brought up being taught that dissenters could not receive communion in our churches. I recall, back in the late 80s on a visit to London, being shocked at a Eucharist at Westminster Abbey when it was announced that 'all those in good standing' with their own church could receive.

Slogans about what Christ would or would not do are both unhelpful and trite. We cannot consult Him about His views on such disciplines.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 30 January, 2016 17:13 :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Slogans about what Christ would or would not do are both unhelpful and trite. We cannot consult Him about His views on such disciplines.

Well, we can, you know. It's called prayer. And we might even assume that Christ's answer is what our consciences are moved to do after prayer.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on 30 January, 2016 18:32 :

Utrecht CAtholic posts:

quote:
Although Rome does not allow open-communion,there is big difference between theory and practise e.g. the founder of the Taizé Community Roger Schütz, was given communion at the funeral mass for the late Pope John Paul II.

And on at least one other occasion, during the life of John Paul II. I was told that Frère Roger was a singular case of an individual non-Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome. My canon lawyer friend quoted this as an example of how the Pope, as supreme legislator, makes exceptions to his own rules. I thought that the logic needed a bit of work, but that it was not impossible.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on 30 January, 2016 19:16 :

Brother Roger actually became a RC in the end. I don't know if this was before or after he received Communion in a RC setting, but apparently it was known that he was progressing in that direction anyway.

[ 30. January 2016, 18:17: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on 30 January, 2016 20:27 :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Brother Roger actually became a RC in the end. I don't know if this was before or after he received Communion in a RC setting, but apparently it was known that he was progressing in that direction anyway.

That Brother Roger formally joined the Catholic Church is an oft-repeated story that as best I can tell has never been confirmed, and was I believe denied both by the Taizé Community and by Cardinal Kasper.

[ 30. January 2016, 19:30: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on 30 January, 2016 20:45 :

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/b011ht_BrotherRogerProt_Vennari.htm

Whether Fr.Schütz converted to the Roman-Catholic Church,has been a mystery, it has never been confirmed by the Taizé Brothers.
This article tells us that it did not happen.
His Funeral Mass,was conducted by Cardinal Kasper, using E.P. 2 of the current R.C.rite and
communicants,belonging to the different Christian Churches were welcome to receive communinion.
I am sure that Fr.Schüts would have been very happy with this decision.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on 30 January, 2016 20:57 :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Whether Fr.Schütz converted to the Roman-Catholic Church,has been a mystery, it has never been confirmed by the Taizé Brothers.

As I said, and as noted in the article to which you linked, it has been denied by the Taizé Community.

Here's another article on the subject, which says:

quote:
Kasper denies that Fr. Schutz "formally" adhered to the Catholic Church. He never left the Protestantism into which he was born. But, says the German cardinal, Brother Roger gradually "enriched" his faith with the pillars of the Catholic faith, particularly the role of Mary in salvation history, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the "the ministry of unity exercised by the bishop of Rome." In 1980, Brother Roger told a meeting of young adult Christians that “I have found my own Christian identity by reconciling within myself the faith of my origins with the Mystery of the Catholic faith, without breaking fellowship with anyone".

It was in response to this "enrichment" that the Catholic Church "accepted that he take Communion at the Eucharist", says Kasper.

There is no mention of a special dispensation, either de facto or de iure. Here, therefore, is a Protestant being admitted to the Catholic eucharistic table (one presided by popes, no less) without actually being admitted into full Communion.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on 30 January, 2016 21:56 :

I have a copy of a lengthy interview with Cardinal Kasper, unfortunately without a source, which I printed out several years ago. In it, Kasper quotes from a 1980 talk Br. Roger gave in Rome (with John Paul II present): "I have found my own Christian identity by reconciling within myself the faith of my origins with the Mystery of the Catholic faith, without breaking fellowship with anyone." The final phrase was, I suspect, important to Br. Roger. Cardinal Kasper went on to say that "...he [Bro. Roger] preferred not to use certain expressions like 'conversion' or 'formal' membership to describe his communion with the Catholic Church."
A bishop has the authority to admit a non-Catholic to Catholic communion (and it was the local bishop in France that admitted Bro. Roger to Catholic communion). At one point, the Bishop of the Diocese of Strasbourg admitted non-Catholic spouses of Catholics to communion in that Diocese; I do not know if that permission is still in effect.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on 30 January, 2016 22:07 :

Interesting article.

The actual conversion of his co-founder, Max Thurien, appears to be less contentious, looking online. But both of them seemed to think of themselves as 'Catholic in spirit' to a greater or lesser extent.

As a humble Non-conformist Taize seemed very RC to me, and apparently most of the participants are RC. So from a strategic point of view perhaps it made sense for the RCC to sanctify and indeed co-opt the 'catholising' tendencies of Brother Roger at the altar, rather than to reject him and risk undermining the RC-friendly spiritual renewal that he was successfully helping to generate. Perhaps.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on 30 January, 2016 22:45 :

Yes, Max Thurian did indeed formally convert to the Roman Catholic Church and was ordained a priest.

The brothers of the Community are a mix of Protestants (of various backgrounds) and Catholics, the first Catholic brother having joined in the late 60s. Last I knew, it was about half and half, but that has been some years ago.

Reconciliation, particularly ecumenical reconciliation, has always been a major focus of the Community's life. Pope John XXIII became familiar with Brother Roger and the community while papal nuncio to France after WWII. It was he who directed the local bishop to allow the Community to use the otherwise unused Taizé village church. When he became Pope, he continued to approve of and support the Community.

[ 30. January 2016, 21:51: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on 31 January, 2016 09:55 :

Do not forget Taize remains the responsibility of the Protestant United Church of France (Lutheran and Reformed). That means that if there are ever scandalous revelations about Taize the buck will not stop with the RCC. This is a similar arrangement as the Iona Community have with the CofS. It is against this that Brother Rogers non-conversion has to be understood.

Jengie

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on 31 January, 2016 15:10 :

Brother Roger's obituary states that Taize's relations with the French Protestant Federation were 'strained' at one point, although it doesn't go into detail. It would be interesting to know how things stand today.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on 31 January, 2016 18:41 :

It is one of the partner organisations. It is not unique in being a religious community the Deaconess of Reuilly are as well and the Pomeroyle Community (who I had not heard of previously).

Before you start Deaconess of Reuilly are just like Methodist deacons, they were more of a nursing order and now seem to be transforming into a contemplative one.

Jengie

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on 31 January, 2016 20:29 :

Thanks for that. The 'before you start' comment was unnecessary, though. I had no particular comment to make about deaconesses or deacons, Methodist or otherwise.

Let me add that I have fond memories of my visit to Taize many years ago.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on 31 January, 2016 21:36 :

Dear Svitlana, and all,

It seems that Br. Roger of truly blessed memory regarded his denominational affiliations as a private matter. I suggest we leave them as such.

At the very least, it is not a topic for Ecclesiantics.

Many thanks.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on 01 February, 2016 03:23 :

An appreciative tangent on MWs.

I often check the main list of reports and usually read most of them.

I have just seem the collection of reports by Torold. They have entertained me as I ate my solitary lunch. Thank you for putting the collection up. I was envious of the food mentioned in some of them. I loved the positive tone used, even when it was obvious things were not entirely to her satisfaction.

Thanks for the collected libks.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on 01 February, 2016 04:00 :

I truly miss the dear lady.

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