Ship of Fools: Te Deum at Evensong

Thread: Te Deum at Evensong Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

I wonder if this is a false memory from a distant youth.

I recall the Te Deum being sung at Evensong, not every Sunday but on High days and Holydays, in the north of England Anglo-Catholic church of my childhood. I think it was between evensong and Benediction. What I actually recall is kneeling, as a server, on the altar steps and wishing the thing would come to an end.

Is this a done thing? Has anyone else heard of it or experienced it?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

No recollection of any such experience. It was always part of Morning Prayer. Most reasonably alert children back in the days when all services were 1662 will have commented that tedium was a very appropriate name for what they experienced week after week.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Bugger. I only came onto this thread to make the old Tedium joke and Enoch beat me to it.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Bugger. I only came onto this thread to make the old Tedium joke and Enoch beat me to it.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Ha ha ...

Mind you, the older I get the better the 1662 becomes. It's fairly cheered me up no end at an Advent Evensong I attended and also at an 8am communion on Christmas Day ...

[Biased]

There's also the old gag about the child who asks its mum or dad why there's a list of names on plaque inside the church ...

'It's a list of names of those who've died in the services ...'

[Big Grin]

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

To go back to the original question....

Yes, I've encountered it at Evensong, and at the end of a Festal Mass. It was/is described in the liturgical Bill of Fare as a 'Solemn Te Deum' (it is a different animal to a Te Deum turning up as a routine canticle within a choir Office).

The choir has lots of fun while the ministers stand in front of the altar looking splendid but doing nothing until the concluding versicles and a Collect. Incense is burned, but nothing is censed.

I last encountered this 12 years ago, at a priest's Jubilee Mass.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Te Deum sung at Evensong is not rare and may occur at festivals. Also, not all churches that have Evensong, have Matins as well, so that may occur as an expedient from time to time.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

Oh good. A Solemn Te Deum would be what I remember, and that would explain why it was between Evensong and Benediction, rather than as a canticle during Evensong.

I have never been to Choral Matins. No Church I have ever attended would have had anything other than Mass in the morning.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

In the mid 1970s there was an occasional Solemn Te Deum at Cowley SS Mary and John; I think on Feast of Christ the King. A separate liturgical event, after the High Mass, before the Angelus. The altar party lined up in front of the altar with two thuribles providing smoke galore, but no censing of people or things as far as I recall.

The then vicar's stated policy was "I try to have something special once a month".

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Yes - we always used to do it after the procession at the end of Festal/Solemn evensong - all the clergy and readers in copes at the high altar.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Te Deum sung at Evensong is not rare and may occur at festivals. Also, not all churches that have Evensong, have Matins as well, so that may occur as an expedient from time to time.

I ought to make clear that (solemn) Te Deum if used at Evensong, happens in the way that other posters describe and I was not suggesting that it is used as a canticle in place of Mag. or Nunc., but rather at or towards the end of the service, possibly before or after any service of Benediction.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

I last encountered it at Solemn Evensong & Benediction for the Queen's "historic reign" (there has been some question as to whether she or Louis XIV is actually our "longest reigning monarch") at an ordinariate-use RC parish. It's also traditional at Mass on New Year's Eve (the Circumcision or Octave Day of Christmas or Mary, Mother of God, strike as applicable).

Here is a recording of an example of such a service in a Canadian Anglican church.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ...

Mind you, the older I get the better the 1662 becomes. It's fairly cheered me up no end at an Advent Evensong I attended and also at an 8am communion on Christmas Day ...

Yes, I now tend to use 1662 MP as my private prayers when I say any, and I quite enjoy rattling through the Te Deum- (which is quite short when placed alongside the alternative, which is the Benedicite).

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Back in the days when all services were 1662, unless one moved in arcane circles, Benediction would have been regarded as esoteric, and probably heretical. The normal pattern in 'ordinary' CofE parishes was Holy Communion 8am. Morning Prayer/Matins mid-morning usually 11 am, Evening Prayer/Evensong 6 or 6.30 pm. or in Cathedrals mid-afternoon. In the 1950s, a lot of parishes began to introduce a Parish Communion in place of Matins one Sunday per month.

Although it's still in the books, I don't know whether anyone still uses the Benedicite these days. Perhaps a Shipmate will tell us their church sings it regularly. I haven't encountered it for years, which is a pity.

Back in the days when it was sung, the verses were usually batched ion threes, with 'Praise him and magnify him for ever' sung after each third 'O all ye .....'. There's a history of people disapproving of this and most other people taking no notice, going back at least as far as the C18.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

It has always been a minor sort on ambition to attend Choral Matins. I guess some cathedrals do it. But the Eucharist has really replaced it pretty much everywhere in England, I think. At least apart from Evangelical churches, where they are unlikely to have Prayer Book matins.

Athanasian Creed, anyone?

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It has always been a minor sort on ambition to attend Choral Matins. I guess some cathedrals do it. But the Eucharist has really replaced it pretty much everywhere in England, I think. At least apart from Evangelical churches, where they are unlikely to have Prayer Book matins.

Try Bath Abbey or Guildford Cathedral

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

Although it's still in the books, I don't know whether anyone still uses the Benedicite these days. Perhaps a Shipmate will tell us their church sings it regularly. I haven't encountered it for years, which is a pity.

We use it on Sundays in Lent and Advent (as the 1662 directs, and as common sense dictates), as well as on ferial weekdays.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It has always been a minor sort on ambition to attend Choral Matins. I guess some cathedrals do it. But the Eucharist has really replaced it pretty much everywhere in England, I think. At least apart from Evangelical churches, where they are unlikely to have Prayer Book matins.

If you happen to be at Christ Church, Fulwood, Lancs on the 5th Sunday of the month you'll still get choral matins as the main Sunday service (unless something has changed recently).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It has always been a minor sort on ambition to attend Choral Matins. I guess some cathedrals do it. But the Eucharist has really replaced it pretty much everywhere in England, I think. At least apart from Evangelical churches, where they are unlikely to have Prayer Book matins.

Try Bath Abbey or Guildford Cathedral

Are you in London? I'd imagine the Chapels Royal, and somewhere like the Guards Chapel, would do it- though maybe sung rather than choral. Oh, and Westminster Abbey, of course.
The Eucharist means a great deal to me. But I like Matins. Used to go to it in Welsh once a month here in Cardiff- not Choral, though, and 1984 Welsh BCP rather than pure 1662. Still, not bad.

[ 08. January 2016, 20:18: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

In addition to the Chapels' Royal which almost all now alternate Choral Matins with Sung Eucharist, and Westminster Abbey, St Paul's Cathedral has Choral Matins too as does St Mary Abbotts and Holy Trinity Prince Consort Road.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

More Choral Matins options than I would have guessed.

I will be in Surrey at the end of next week, so I looked up Guildford Cathedral only to find, alas, that the normal Choral Matins is that Sunday replaced by the Annual Service of Thanksgiving for Gordon's School. So I am thwarted there. But I shall try to make it an ambition fulfilled this year.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Enoch

quote:
Although it's still in the books, I don't know whether anyone still uses the Benedicite these days. Perhaps a Shipmate will tell us their church sings it regularly. I haven't encountered it for years, which is a pity.

We have Choral Matins once a month, twice if there is a fifth Sunday: as mentioned above the convention for BCP Matins is that during Lent and Advent the Benedicite and Jubilate replace the Te Deum laudamus and Benedictus.

quote:
Back in the days when it was sung, the verses were usually batched ion threes, with 'Praise him and magnify him for ever' sung after each third 'O all ye .....'. There's a history of people disapproving of this and most other people taking no notice, going back at least as far as the C18.

The reason why a lot of parish churches use the "batches of three" is that they use chants (frequently one by Charles Harford Lloyd) for the Benedicite. Similarly, many more elaborate settings omit 2 out of 3 Praise him and magnify him for evers. In my childhood we would sing the Benedicite once a month to chant without the cuts and it added to the length of the service by about 5 minutes.

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

If I am correct in thinking that the Benedicte is the song of the three young men from Daniel, then it is used every Sunday and Solemnity at Lauds in the Roman Liturgy of the Hours.

At least among American Roman Catholics, the traditional way of concluding Benediction is by singing Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, which is a paraphrase of the Te Deum. Perhaps some places sang the real thing.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although it's still in the books, I don't know whether anyone still uses the Benedicite these days. Perhaps a Shipmate will tell us their church sings it regularly. I haven't encountered it for years, which is a pity.

Back in the days when it was sung, the verses were usually batched ion threes, with 'Praise him and magnify him for ever' sung after each third 'O all ye .....'. There's a history of people disapproving of this and most other people taking no notice, going back at least as far as the C18.

I believe the 1928 Proposed BCP has rubrics allowing the shortening of the Benedicite in this way. This permission actually shows up in some choral settings such as ones by W H Harris and by Sumsion. I heard the Harris in Westminster Abbey at Choral Matins on Advent Sunday some years ago. It was marvelous.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

PreVatican 2 in Austria,anyway,the Te Deum would be sung on festal occasions like the last day of the year.

The priest would intone,in Latin of course,'Te Deum laudamus' and then say the rest of the canticle. Meanwhile the bells would be rung during the recitation as on Holy Thursday and the people would sing 'Grosser Gott,wir loben Dich' (in German).
'Holy God,we praise Thy name' is,I think, a translation from the German and it is certainly the same tune that I have heard in the UK.

21st July is,as some will know,the Belgian national holiday. It is the day on which Leopold of Saxe-Cobourg took office as the first King of the Belgians. Since he was not a Catholic but rather Lutheran it was celebrated not with a Mass but with a Te Deum. This is still the custom in Belgium on 21st July. The King and Queen normally go to the huge basilica of the Sacred Heart in Brussels, though I think they may have gone to another church this year.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Leopold of Saxe-Cobourg took office as the first King of the Belgians. Since he was not a Catholic but rather Lutheran it was celebrated not with a Mass but with a Te Deum.

I am in the rare position of being able to trump Forthview with liturgical arcana.

The first wife of Leopold of Saxe Gotha was Princess Charlotte, daughter of George IV and heiress to the British throne. He decently converted to the C of E on his marriage as a prospective future Prince Consort.

Charlotte died in child birth at the age of 21, ensuring that her uncles abandoned their mistresses and married respectable protestant princesses. Edward Duke of York married Lepold’s sister, Victoria of Saxe Coburg Gotha and fathered the future Queen Victoria.

Leopold was subsequently made King of the Belgians, but chose not to change his ecclesiastical allegiance yet again, so he was C of E and a Good Thing, as 1066 would put it..

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
More Choral Matins options than I would have guessed.

I will be in Surrey at the end of next week, so I looked up Guildford Cathedral only to find, alas, that the normal Choral Matins is that Sunday replaced by the Annual Service of Thanksgiving for Gordon's School. So I am thwarted there. But I shall try to make it an ambition fulfilled this year.

If you are able to travel, of the three neighbouring dioceses, two (Chichester & Winchester) both have sung matins as part of the Sunday morning service schedule.

Actually, I think in the south at least, at least half the number of cathedrals do this, though that's an impression and not a scientific study(!)

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Does Oxford not? It would surprise me if so.

Also not choral, but there must be some Prayer Book Evangelicals out there still doing BCP Matins at least sometimes.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

When living in Toronto I used to attend sung Morning Prayer (BCP) at this evangelical parish. They are now in interregnum so I don't know if or how their orientation may evolve in the future.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Does Oxford not? It would surprise me if so.

They didn't last time I was there, but that was a few years ago.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Does Oxford not? It would surprise me if so.
They didn't last time I was there, but that was a few years ago.

I think it is usually Sung Matins and Sermon at 10, when the choir is not on vacation. Other Sundays Matins is said with hymns. Sung Eucharist at 11.15. No doubt all at God's time and not GMT.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

There is a large difference between having Mattins as the warm up to the eucharist, as is meet and right, and having it as an alternative.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Does Oxford not? It would surprise me if so.

Also not choral, but there must be some Prayer Book Evangelicals out there still doing BCP Matins at least sometimes.

Looking at their website, their usual pattern is "Mattins with Sermon" at 10 followed by "Sung Eucharist" at 11.15, however on Jan.3rd and 31st they had/have "Sung Mattins" followed by "Choral Eucharist".

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
I think it is usually Sung Matins and Sermon at 10, when the choir is not on vacation. Other Sundays Matins is said with hymns. Sung Eucharist at 11.15. No doubt all at God's time and not GMT.

Unless you're saying 'about 4 minutes later than GMT', GMT is God's time. It's BST which is the invention of man.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Sorry,Venbede, you haven't quite trumped me on Leopold etc. Edward, father of Queen Victoria, was the Duke of Kent, not Duke of York. He was in the Royal Navy and spent a long time in Canada, giving his name to Prince Edward Island and having a long term liaison with a French speaking
Quebecoise who was abandoned and sent to a convent in Parish when royal duties called.

I should have known that Leopold would become a member of CofE when he married Princess Charlotte.
He is usually described in Belgium as having been Lutheran,but that is fascinating,well to me anyway, that he retained his CofE membership.

I'm sure he joined in heartily in Te Deum laudamus when he arrived in his new kingdom.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Kent, of course. Silly me. He died at Sidmouth which also has the historic distinction of being the place of my baptism.

I imagine the ordinary Belgian RC wouldn't know the difference between an Anglican and a Lutheran.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
PreVatican 2 in Austria,anyway,the Te Deum would be sung on festal occasions like the last day of the year.

The priest would intone,in Latin of course,'Te Deum laudamus' and then say the rest of the canticle. Meanwhile the bells would be rung during the recitation as on Holy Thursday and the people would sing 'Grosser Gott,wir loben Dich' (in German).

A further piece of information essential to your daily life is that after the Peace Treaty with Austria was signed, Harold Macmillan, then Foreign Secretary, and Antoine Pinay, the French Foreign Minister until Christian Pineau took over, went off to a Te Deum in St Stephen's. Macmillan records that Molotov and Foster Dulles did not attend.

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

It seems that unless I become King of the Belgians, or conclude a Peace Treaty with Austria (both of which are unlikely, though you never know what life has in store), my best chance of hearing a Te Deum is a Choral Matins. Have I got this right?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
PreVatican 2 in Austria,anyway,the Te Deum would be sung on festal occasions like the last day of the year.

There is a plenary indulgence for public recitation of the Te Deum on the last day of the year. My parish has a Holy Hour at on New Year's Eve, ending with the singing of the Te Deum at 11:50PM. Solemn Mass is then celebrated at midnight. The morning Masses are followed by the singing of the Veni Creator Spiritus. There is a plenary indulgence for the public recitation of that on New Year's Day.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
It has always been a minor sort on ambition to attend Choral Matins. I guess some cathedrals do it. But the Eucharist has really replaced it pretty much everywhere in England, I think. At least apart from Evangelical churches, where they are unlikely to have Prayer Book matins.

Try Bath Abbey or Guildford Cathedral

If you go to Guildford Cathedral for Choral Matins, beware of the second Sunday in the month, when there is no service at the standard time of 11.30. Otherwise, this service normally takes place on all other Sundays, except for about two Sundays in the year when a 10.30 ordination sevice takes over.

A few other cathedrals and cathedral standard churches come to mind, where choral Matins takes place (not weekly in every case) such as St. Alban's Abbey, Rochester Cathedral, Winchester Cathedral, Westminster Abbey. But this list is not exhaustive.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

The Telegraph (not my paper of choice!) lists Sunday Services at almost all of the Cathedrals and most of the Central London Churches in its Saturday edition, and will indicate where and at what time Matins is sung.

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