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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eucharistic peregrinations: a moveable feast?
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Our (CofE) shack is a splendid Edwardian masterpiece of typical topology, having two steps from the nave into the choir and a further three from the choir up to the altar rail. Current practice at Communion is for most to receive kneeling at the rail, then two ministers go down into the nave to communicate those who are unable/unwilling to move from their seats. So far, fairly typical, I believe.
Increasing frailty among an ageing congregation means that more members experience problems with mobility; many of them find the steps challenging but want to come to the rail whilst they are still able. In fact, the mutual sharing of arms and elbows is a touching part of the congregation pilgrimage to (and from) the altar.
It has recently been posited that our inclusive theology implies reducing discriminatory 'ableist' barriers; thus communion might henceforth be administered standing at a ground level station in front of the chancel step, followed by the walkabout distribution, abandoning the rails except perhaps for servers and choir. Furthermore, it is asserted that such a methodology has theological warrant as Christ 'coming down' to be among His people. Conversely, others find value in 'going up' to the Holy of Holies. Three distribution methods would seem overly complex to explain week by week.
We do use a nave altar once a month with standing administration so the practice isn't unknown. What's become clear is that many whom we observe tottering up the steps are the most insistent on retaining the status quo ante, but if one was to slip and break a hip how might we then feel?
I wonder if other Shipmates have found a way to balance immanent and transcendent sensitivities in this area?
Thanks
Q.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
A parish with which I have some association solved the problem this way:
They were able to make the rails moveable, so that for certain services the rails were lifted from their 'normal' place, and brought down to nave level, thus eliminating the several steps. IIRC one or two pews had to be removed at the front of the nave to make this possible. It seemed to work well -- the rails didn't wobble, and there was a space left in the center for those who wished to receive standing.
This worked well there; it might not be possible in your case, however.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Our (CofE) shack is a splendid Edwardian masterpiece of typical topology, having two steps from the nave into the choir and a further three from the choir up to the altar rail. Current practice at Communion is for most to receive kneeling at the rail, then two ministers go down into the nave to communicate those who are unable/unwilling to move from their seats. So far, fairly typical, I believe.
Increasing frailty among an ageing congregation means that more members experience problems with mobility; many of them find the steps challenging but want to come to the rail whilst they are still able. In fact, the mutual sharing of arms and elbows is a touching part of the congregation pilgrimage to (and from) the altar.
It has recently been posited that our inclusive theology implies reducing discriminatory 'ableist' barriers; thus communion might henceforth be administered standing at a ground level station in front of the chancel step, followed by the walkabout distribution, abandoning the rails except perhaps for servers and choir. Furthermore, it is asserted that such a methodology has theological warrant as Christ 'coming down' to be among His people. Conversely, others find value in 'going up' to the Holy of Holies. Three distribution methods would seem overly complex to explain week by week.
We do use a nave altar once a month with standing administration so the practice isn't unknown. What's become clear is that many whom we observe tottering up the steps are the most insistent on retaining the status quo ante, but if one was to slip and break a hip how might we then feel?
I wonder if other Shipmates have found a way to balance immanent and transcendent sensitivities in this area?
Thanks
Q.
Seems to me that what you're doing at the moment is probably right. How would you feel if they broke a hip doing something they wanted to do? I don't know - how would you feel about preventing them from doing something they wanted to do for ever more?
At least you know you'd be doing the second, whereas until it happens you can't be sure the first will occur.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I apologise for being naive, but couldn't you take the elements to them?
Possibly you could have a quiet word and say that if they could stay sat because you are worried about possible accidents on the way to the rail. If necessary you could even serve them first before inviting the rest of the congregation forward.
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arse
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I apologise for being naive, but couldn't you take the elements to them?
The OP says that they do this for some people, but many of the totterers don't want to admit defeat and stay in their seats.
quote:
Possibly you could have a quiet word and say that if they could stay sat because you are worried about possible accidents on the way to the rail.
I don't think I could possibly get myself into a fit state to receive were I to be on the receiving end of such a "quiet word". Qoheleth's place brings the elements to those unable to make their way to the altar, and from his description, this is a usual occurrence, so all the parishioners will be aware that it's possible. They just don't want to.
It's clear that those who are struggling to get to the altar feel that they should make the effort. The question I thought he was posing was how those who can't manage the altar steps feel about this - do they feel like they are failing because of it, and if so, should the church's practices be changed (for everyone) to avoid singling out those who can't climb the stairs.
My gut reaction is that his church's current behaviour is exactly right, but I think there's a reasonable question...
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
We have a Victorian church and have a similar solution to the situation.
A little while back somebody said to me that she thought it made people conspicuous to others by having the elements brought to them. Pondering this, I asked the daughter of a gentleman in a wheelchair what she thought of this (she is one of the MCs and a pastoral assistant) and she said her dad was fine with it. As the OP said, some people will do their utmost to walk to the rail, others stay put (as I did after foot surgery).
Nobody in the congo notices who does what, and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I understand the impulse to go forward while I can still crawl, as it's one I share. Is it impossible to put in a series of little ramps to let such people get up the steps more easily? (I'm assuming here that the steps are as shallow as the ones I've seen here in the US, which may be a bad assumption).
I know building restrictions may forbid permanent changes, but perhaps these could be portable and put out before services as needed.
Another possibility (if people will accept it) is to have two or more designated "human hand rails" to stand either side of the approach and offer a hand to anyone who looks tottery as they come forward. If you have servers, choir members, acolytes, whatever robed up, they might be naturals to use.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Leorning Cniht summarises my OP correctly. There is no concern over the bringing of the elements to seated communicants. The disquiet has arisen over the (putative) abandoning of the high altar rails to accommodate the mobile but tottering.
Perhaps the question is deeper and reflects on how we might understand inclusivity. For example, we print service sheets in both 'normal' font sizes and large print for those who need the adaptation. We don't print only one, larger, size. Perhaps we should??
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
Going back to the early 1990s St Giles in Reading separated the decency rail from the front row of pews and put in a row of kneelers so that the administration for all took place there, at what was once the front row of pews. The original front row of pews was removed to make room, but that caused little/no difficulty and worked beautifully.
The original altar rail remains around the high altar. All communicate on the same level at the front of the nave, and can kneel/stand as fitness allows.
Accordingly:
1. decency/seemliness preserved
2. high altar/rail preserved
3. easy access for all
4. no distinction between the able bodied or otherwise
5. level access for wheelchairs and no steps to limit those of limited mobility
It all sounds too good to be true, doesn't it?!
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I understand the impulse to go forward while I can still crawl, as it's one I share. Is it impossible to put in a series of little ramps to let such people get up the steps more easily?
They'd need to be very shallow. Slopes are often worse than steps for the poor of balance.
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
We don't print only one, larger, size. Perhaps we should??
In this case, large print is bad for the clearly-sighted (it means more unnecessary paper to manage) and uses more resources, so bad for the environment.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Some bright bunny may suggest the words on a screen, so everyone is treated equally, but that excludes the functionally illiterate and those with more visual impairment.
Perhaps a large print book with Braille for everyone?
And what about hymns? They exclude the tone deaf.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Does the Inclusive Church website not give any links to resources? Perhaps contacting somewhere like Disability & the Church might give some ideas?
Good disability inclusion within the church is about listening to those in question and what they say about their needs, rather than trying to second-guess them and bringing in well-intentioned things they don't need. I'm aware that with the people in question, they are quite likely to say not to go to any bother even though some adjustments may make life more comfortable. Obviously if there were an accident, things would change somewhat.
In light of this, I think people giving an arm to frailer communicants is probably the most practical and tactful option.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Some bright bunny may suggest the words on a screen, so everyone is treated equally, but that excludes the functionally illiterate and those with more visual impairment.
Perhaps a large print book with Braille for everyone?
And what about hymns? They exclude the tone deaf.
Not for me. Quite incapable of carrying a tune, I enjoy them, although I don't even try to sing.
Pomona's post above underlines what I learned a long time ago from a colleague who needed a wheelchair to get around. Never assume what she needs, but ask and offer. She told me that so much trouble is caused by well-meaning folk who just think that they have the solution.
Saint Onofrio's setup gives us five steps and an altar rail. At some services, the priest & chalice-wallah head down to communicate a parishioner who can't manage the steps, and I gather that it is much appreciated. But most of the time, it is as Pomona says, the offering of an arm which joins together the practical with a fine gesture of support of one parishioner for another without powerpoint or workshop.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Wheelchair user. When I was a regular communicant at Gabriel visits Mary, I sat in front of the front of the first row of pews. The theory was that the Ministers of the Eucharist would have pinpointed my position and would communicate me before taking up their station. There was one altar boy who had good eyesight and would guide his Minister to me. Mostly it was catch as catch can with everyone suffering selective sight. The most irritating thing was making sure that I repositioned so that tottery old dears would not trip over me as they staggered up. The most irritating thing was that for some reason the altar microphones broadcast most efficiently to the back of the church, where there was nowhere for me to position. So after 5 years of this, I said goodbye to the Sunday shuffle. I now have 3 extra hours to do useful things. Most people didn't notice when I did leave. Certainly no one has ever contacted me.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
That's awful, Uncle Pete.
I'm sorry if my post seemed to dismiss efforts to include.
Pomona hits the nail on the head by saying you've got to give people what they want, not what you think is good for them.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I know this isn't quite applicable to what the OP asks, as it doesn't involve either the logistical or emotional/devotional aspects of moving up into the chancel and kneeling at the altar rail, but I'll offer it for whatever use it may be.
Like a growing number of American Presbyterian churches, we've been moving away from pew communion toward having people come forward. There are a variety of reasons for this, not least of which is the increasing frequency of communion juxtaposed with the comparative effort of preparing (and cleaning!) 4 chalices vs a few hundred wee cuppies.
We have three stations at the foot of the chancel steps—one in the center and one on either side at the front. Elders serve at all of these stations. The minister moves toward the back of the center aisle, and serves anyone in the pews who can't come forward. What I often notice is that if one person can't come forward, at least one other person with him or her may also stay seated and be served in the pews, so that the one for whom the walking is a problem isn't served alone. Before returning to the chancel, the minister may ask something like "Is there anyone still waiting to be served?"
Of course, for many of our older, not-as-mobile people, communion in the pew is what they have been used to most of their lives, so the emotional/devotional meaning for them to receive in the pew is somewhat comparable to the meaning for older Anglicans in receiving at the rail. In other words, for us, this accommodation plays into what they were long used to (except no wee cuppies), rather than against it.
And it seems to me that any perceived stigma in not doing what everyone else is doing (by going forward) is mitigated by the fact that it is the minister who serves those in the pews. I suspect that is the reason she always takes that role.
In any event, FWIW.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Of course, if there is an accident, the situation would need changing - falls can be very serious for the elderly and as much as they might not want help, they may need it regardless.
It is perhaps worth looking into a backup plan in case an accident does happen? I wonder if temporary hand rails are available - I'm thinking a vacuum-lock type, like those shower grab rails.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
... I think people giving an arm to frailer communicants is probably the most practical and tactful option.
That sounds sensible. Post an (adult) server by the altar steps, briefed on how to offer an arm properly.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
... I think people giving an arm to frailer communicants is probably the most practical and tactful option.
That sounds sensible. Post an (adult) server by the altar steps, briefed on how to offer an arm properly.
One of our ushers usually works that spot -- he is so good with our older and frail parishioners and does it with such grace that it's more like he's offering a gentlemanly arm to a lady* than helping someone who needs it.
He also keeps an eye on who's in the congregation who might need Communion in the pew and checks with them before the service if in doubt.
*We seem to have more frail women than men -- but he's equally gracious to any men who need his assistance.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Pomona hits the nail on the head by saying you've got to give people what they want, not what you think is good for them.
...but she goes on to say
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Of course, if there is an accident, the situation would need changing - falls can be very serious for the elderly and as much as they might not want help, they may need it regardless.
Which is the direct opposite.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Thank you for all your observations, all helping to inform the debate.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
In our church the eucharist is celebrated at the nave altar but the distribution is at the rail of the high altar in the chancel. Am I alone in thinking we should receive communion at the altar where the celebration has taken place?
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
In our church the eucharist is celebrated at the nave altar but the distribution is at the rail of the high altar in the chancel. Am I alone in thinking we should receive communion at the altar where the celebration has taken place?
Not entirely alone, but I'm with the gang at the rail.
[ 28. January 2016, 23:22: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
In our church the eucharist is celebrated at the nave altar but the distribution is at the rail of the high altar in the chancel. Am I alone in thinking we should receive communion at the altar where the celebration has taken place?
It would be more appropriate. However it is what happened last time I attended the Sunday Sung Eucharist at Westminster Abbey, where there was very little room for the temporary central altar at the crossing.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
... I think people giving an arm to frailer communicants is probably the most practical and tactful option.
That sounds sensible. Post an (adult) server by the altar steps, briefed on how to offer an arm properly.
One of our ushers usually works that spot -- he is so good with our older and frail parishioners and does it with such grace that it's more like he's offering a gentlemanly arm to a lady* than helping someone who needs it.
He also keeps an eye on who's in the congregation who might need Communion in the pew and checks with them before the service if in doubt.
*We seem to have more frail women than men -- but he's equally gracious to any men who need his assistance.
That sounds like a very valuable ministry.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Pomona hits the nail on the head by saying you've got to give people what they want, not what you think is good for them.
...but she goes on to say
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Of course, if there is an accident, the situation would need changing - falls can be very serious for the elderly and as much as they might not want help, they may need it regardless.
Which is the direct opposite.
Point taken. I wasn't thinking so much of the issue of safety but of the way some muck about with the service "to make it easier for strangers" without knowing what strangers would make of things in the first place.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
In my work I prepare volunteers to work with people with disabilities and the key thing that I have learned to drum into them is "ask your clients what they want".
With that important caveat, I think there's a value in having everyone in the congo doing the same thing. As someone mentioned, there's something about communion with each other about all going up together.
Of course, if I had the fear of falling, sitting and waiting for the Sacrament may be my main priority (see first paragraph).
What happened to Pete is an absolute scandal.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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