Ship of Fools: What was Ena Sharples's place of worship?

Thread: What was Ena Sharples's place of worship? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Older UK Shipmates will remember Ena Sharples, a central character in the long-running (and still running) ITV soap Coronation Street in the 1960s and 70s. You can see her first appearance in the Street, in December 1960, here.
This is a wonderful scene with enough in it for a whole sociology thesis. Among other things, Ena (sorry, Mrs Sharples) introduces herself as caretaker of the Glad Tidings Mission Hall in the Street.
My question is: what kind of mission hall would that likely have been? Would it have been attached to any denomination? Perhaps a Brethren set up? A hangover from something like the Methodist Forward Movement? Or just an independent mission? This is a working class area of Manchester/Salford in 1960.
Anyone got any ideas?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It seems that the Wesleyan Methodists were more successful than most in developing urban missions around the turn of the century. But I very much doubt if a Methodist mission would ever be called "Glad Tidings Mission Hall". According to Corripedia the mission hall was built in 1902; my guess is that it was an independent "holiness" mission, possibly backed by a Christian philanthropist. But that is only a guess.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

There is a Glad Tidings Hall with the "Assemblies of God" in Birmingham according to A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 7, the City of Birmingham

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

And some will remember that a certain Principal of St Stephen's House, destined for far greater things, was named Ena the Cruel in her honour.

I cannot think Ena Sharples would have been at all charismatic. A Brethren type independent mission, or maybe Congregationalist chapel would be more her thing.

Maybe it was established by a mill owner, with the hope that it would keep the workers out of the Rover's Return?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

1902 is too early for a Pentecostal mission. At a guess, Brethren, who certainly had Gospel Halls in that era, or a predecessor of what would now be Free E.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

A "Mission Hall" isn't a "Gospel Hall" - the "Free Evangelical" tag is more likely IMO.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Could be almost anything except Roman Catholic or Orthodox. Mission Halls could be free Evangelical but I also know that this church started out as a mission hall.

Mission halls fill a bit of anomalous area. They might be an independent group, they may be Brethren, Salvation Army, mission group (e.g. Fisherman's Mission) or they may be a from a more established congregation. If the latter they could either be a church plant or an attempt at social outreach with worship attached.

I am afraid you need to work out what "Glad Tidings" tells you which is not a pattern of naming I am familiar with.

OT placenames Ebenezer, Shiloh, Bethel etc often indicate orthodox Dissent but could be Holiness tradition.

Mission Hall - Mission organisation

Wesley Mission Hall - Methodist of some ilk

Modern place name e.g. Little Warming by the Sea Mission Hall is Non-Conformist

A Saints name might well indicate Anglican so St Jude of Lost Causes Mission Hall

Jengie

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

When I was a boy in Birkenhead I recall seeing a rather grim building called 'Charles Thompson's Mission'. Aparently it is linked to something called the Liverpool City Mission - see here

Now Manchester is not Liverpool (perish the thought), but I wonder if it could be a similar sort of set up. Those better versed than me in Protestant Dissent may be able to work out where LCM stands.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I regret it's also quite likely that the script writer plucked a name at random out of the air, without thinking much about whether its date or affiliation was likely to fit. Notoriously, most script writers don't know that much about Christianity and don't bother even to research things that we on this board think ought to be obvious.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
When I was a boy in Birkenhead I recall seeing a rather grim building called 'Charles Thompson's Mission'. Aparently it is linked to something called the Liverpool City Mission - see here

Now Manchester is not Liverpool (perish the thought), but I wonder if it could be a similar sort of set up. Those better versed than me in Protestant Dissent may be able to work out where LCM stands.

Full immersion + no reference to church meeting = not Baptist.

I'd suggest Brethren (open) originally and now Free Evangelical possibly FIEC

[ 07. March 2016, 16:56: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

Thanks ExclamationMark. Fascinating.

There was a Gaptist Glad Tidings Hall in Derby - picture here

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I regret it's also quite likely that the script writer plucked a name at random out of the air, without thinking much about whether its date or affiliation was likely to fit. Notoriously, most script writers don't know that much about Christianity and don't bother even to research things that we on this board think ought to be obvious.

I don't know what the writers of Coronation Street in 1960 knew about religion, but they did, I think, know their area (and a good chunk of their audience and actors certainly would have done), so I'd guess that it would have been a quite plausible name, whatever the tradition.
I suspect the 1902 date on corriepedia is given because that'd be the date the street was built (the clue's in the name). EM- was your suggestion of Open Brethren aimed at the LCM or the Glad Tidings? I did think of Brethren because there was a little backstreet hall in the town (in Kent) where I grew up - but as someone said upthread, that's have been a Gospel Hall.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

That is a brilliant clip. I've seen it several times but had forgotten how funny (and true) it was. God rest Tony Warren the genius behind the show who died only last week,

Ena's barbed comments about the C of E say a lot about the image of the Established Church in working class areas (too often justified, though of course with many exceptions).

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Is it possible that you are reading too much into a name? I don't know much about British TV but in the US the makers of TV shows are often pretty ignorant when it comes to religion (they still can't figure out, for the most part, what a Roman Catholic priest wears at Mass and how he wears it).

Also, here in the US, many non-denominational churches have names that are basically word salads, so I'm not sure if there is much rhyme or reason to them other than that they sound vaguely Christian. I am thinking of names like "Apostolic Bible Blessed Hope Bethel Church of Christ Our Savior: A Covenant People and a Family for You!" Quite a few church signs across the country have names ending in "Inc." now, but I think that is just because they just sent their full legal names to the sign makers by accident. (Although there are now so many churches with "Inc." in the name that maybe some people think it is expected!)

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is it possible that you are reading too much into a name? I don't know much about British TV but in the US the makers of TV shows are often pretty ignorant when it comes to religion (they still can't figure out, for the most part, what a Roman Catholic priest wears at Mass and how he wears it).

I recently saw a trailer for The Hollow Crown showing a procession into a church led by someone in a miter apparently filling in for a missing thurifer. Because of course bishops and abbots naturally walk around swinging a thurible?

Posted by Divine Praises (# 11955) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know what the writers of Coronation Street in 1960 knew about religion, but they did, I think, know their area (and a good chunk of their audience and actors certainly would have done), so I'd guess that it would have been a quite plausible name, whatever the tradition......

I suspect you're right in your surmise. Any city which could provide a home for the Bethshan Tabernacle would also make room for the Glad Tidings.

Moving into the realms of anecdote and hearsay, I was often told in my undergraduate days in Manchester that Tony Warren was an occasional visitor to Our Lady's Church on Mount Road in Gorton (or, to give the church its proper title, Our Lady of Mercy and S. Thomas of Canterbury).

Sadly, the parish has been suppressed and I have no idea what the austere but beautiful interior looks like these days. But, back in the 1970s, Our Lady's had a flourishing congregation. It was lavishly staff, as we would now think, by three clergy from the Company of Mission Priests so could run to a High Mass most Sundays.

I was, like Mr Warren, an infrequent visitor - as a server at S. Benedict's in Ardwick, it was difficult to get away on Sundays. In addition, the parochus at S. Benedict's had a certain suspicion of Our Lady's. The fact that the name of the Supreme Pontiff had been removed from the Canon of the Mass in that church smacked of a compromise too far.

But Tony Warren got his portrayal of the strong women that have characterised Coronation Street spot on. The memory of my first incursion into the Ardwick wash house with my bag of undergraduate laundry is forever seared upon my soul. I only went back later in the day to pick up my washing because I had no more clean underwear.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

[Overused]

[ 09. March 2016, 09:08: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Ena's barbed comments about the C of E say a lot about the image of the Established Church in working class areas (too often justified, though of course with many exceptions).

Which well meaning liberals going on about how the C of E is "inclusive" would do well to remember.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

But you've got to remember the exceptions. My m-in-l's family were solidly working class Lancashire CofE, with strong musical tradition. Bit too deferential for my liking but there you are. I don't doubt that a lot of Anglicans looked and look down their noses (or were social climbers) but a lot of chapel people had and have chips on their shoulders (or were dedicated to the kind of rather nauseating self-righteousness that said that WE were the holy ones and the trouble with the church is that they just take anyone)and I wouldn't like to say which came first.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

How about the documented stuff. Being chapel meant not being able to hold several position in society in the 19th Century. I think, though never had it confirmed, that the last were made open at the end of the twentieth.

For instance, what created the Red Brick Universities was the fact that if an educated Non-Conformist wanted to go to Oxbridge they had to become an Anglican. This was an attempt by Nonconformists when they were a major force in society to provide an alternative. Intriguingly they did not cut out Anglicans but did specify that no catechetical element to religious teaching was to happen in those universities.

This followed on from the formation of Non-Conformist Academies of which the Manchester one was significant. It is now Manchester College Oxford.

Jengie

[ 13. March 2016, 16:30: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

The Universities Tests Act of 1871 abolished the requirement to subscribe to the 39 Articles to take up a fellowship at Oxford or Cambridge. That was the last remaining religious disability in the universities. I don't think it was really the need to subscribe to the Articles that kept people from places like Coronation Street out of Oxford and Cambridge!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

University College London was founded in 1826 as a secular institution to provide a university education for those who could not go to Oxford and Cambridge for religious reasons. Apparently it couldn't grant degrees until 1836 due to opposition from the CoE and other universities and medical schools. Apparently it became known as "that Godless institution on Gower Street"; King's College was founded as an Anglican response to it, three years later.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
The Universities Tests Act of 1871 abolished the requirement to subscribe to the 39 Articles to take up a fellowship at Oxford or Cambridge. That was the last remaining religious disability in the universities. I don't think it was really the need to subscribe to the Articles that kept people from places like Coronation Street out of Oxford and Cambridge!

Yes, I think that's the point here.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

No it was not. The last to my knowledge was the requirement for a professorship in Theology where because you were also required to lead worship required that you were ordained in the CofE. So up until the 1980s the top professorial posts in the UK were largely open to Anglicans only (there was one exception).

Jengie

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
No it was not. The last to my knowledge was the requirement for a professorship in Theology where because you were also required to lead worship required that you were ordained in the CofE. So up until the 1980s the top professorial posts in the UK were largely open to Anglicans only (there was one exception).

Jengie

You are thinking of those Regius chairs at Oxford which are annexed to canonries at Christ Church. They were four, I think. I am not sure they would be considered the 'top professorships in England', but I suppose that depends on your point of view. But in nay event, they are pretty marginal.

Are you suggesting that people like Ena Sharples rejected Anglicanism and went to the Chapel because the Regius Chair in Ecclesiastical History at Oxford was closed to them? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

No. I am telling you that Anglican privelege continued long into the twentieth century and that in part formed Ena Sharples attitude.

Oh if you want something nearer the time, the right the CofE schools got to be funded while NonConformists weren't in the early part of the twentieth century.

Jengie

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

'Anglican privilege' is called establishment. It is, I would suggest, something which, while it may be allied to Anglicanism being perceived as 'middle class' is not the whole story. Many northern industrialists were nonconformists, like Titus Salt in Bradford or William Lever of Lever Brothers and many, many others.

RC and Jewish state schools existed in the early 20th century. I am sure nonconformist ones could have done if there had been call for them.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The latest date an RC was hung, drawn and quartered was in the 1670s. What was the latest date a Reformed Christon was executed for their religion?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I do not know whether either Baptists or Congregationalists (as then were) historically opened schools, but I know well of a Methodist school in the state sector that is of long standing and functions now.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

To go back to the original question ...

There were many non-denominational mission halls opened in the industrial cities of Britain in the last quarter of the 19th century. I would suggest that few of these were linked to the "traditional" denominations. Many were started by Christian philanthropists who "saw a need" for the light of the Gospel to penetrate these "benighted" areas, or who wanted to peddle the Temperance message. I would suspect, too, that many were in the "holiness" Arminian tradition, although perhaps not consciously so. A particular stimulus was the Moody and Sankey missions of the 1870s/80s - when I lived in Glasgow in the 1970s their legacy was still fondly remember (although most of the mission halls were by then on their last legs, having failed to move with the times).

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, that would all fit, I think. Thank you.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I do not know whether either Baptists or Congregationalists (as then were) historically opened schools, but I know well of a Methodist school in the state sector that is of long standing and functions now.

Well, I know of a then Presbyterian Church that definitely did and suspect that it was not alone. There is one case mentioned in this page. You may explore further if you like!

Jengie

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

Tony Warren was I believe inspired by the Fox and Hounds for the Rovers Return. The Fox being the parish watering hole for St Mary's Bourne Street in London where he worshipped. I'm trying to think of any mission halls in the area. I think St Barnabas Pimlico had one called St John's between Bourne Street and St Barnabas - so very close by.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

How interesting. I'd never thought of the model for the Rovers Return being in SW1!

Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :

Seems unlikely. The Fox looks nothing like the Rovers Return. It is a completely different shape, the bar is arranged differently, it doesn't have 'snugs'. In fact, it would be hard to think of anything they have in common except that they are both pubs.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Since there have always been plenty of pubs in Manchester, my mind is boggling slightly that anyone should find the need to allege that the Rover's Return is inspired by a pub in another city nearly 200 miles away.

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

Passmore Street where the Fox is found was a simple street of terraced houses and, once upon a time, before it was smartened up, housed people not dissimilar in background from those in Coronation Street. The Fox is bigger than it was but not much more than a snug itself. So the connection is not that far fetched and if Tony Warren were still alive I suppose we could ask him. But we can't!

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