Ship of Fools: Mothering Sunday

Thread: Mothering Sunday Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

In past years we have celebrated Mothering Sunday at my church and some of the cooks in the parish created wonderful simnel cake to share. However, this year none of it happened. I know that here in Australia Mother's day is later in the year, but Mothering Sunday was never seen as Mother's Day by the congregation. Has anyone else found that Mothering Sunday has disappeared in their church's calendar? It really felt as though something much loved had been lost last Sunday.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

In a word....No. Mothering Sunday is still observed and seems to becoming more popular each year. We had the Mothering Sunday readings, presentation of the flowers and Simnel cake.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As Nonconformists, we don't follow the church calendar rigorously. However I have noticed that we always get a low congregation on that day as children go out with their mothers and grandmothers, or older mothers go to visit their adult children etc. We do gain one or two adults coming to be with their elderly mothers but, for most families, "church" doesn't seem to get a look-in.

We did give small posies to all ladies in church.

[ 08. March 2016, 11:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

We did have Mothering Sunday at the CofE church I attend here in England. We read 2 Cor 1:3–7 and Luke 2:33–35, and the mothers got a card.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I was glad to note that the (CofE) church I attended this Sunday kept Lent 4 with the Prodigal Son gospel reading. The sermon could have made more of the 'mothering' aspect of the father in the story (and we could have had pink vestments!), but that apart it was better than going overboard on the sentimentality of 'Mothers Day' which can be hurtful and exclusive to many people. There were small bunches of daffodils which were given away to everybody present, not just mothers and not just those of the female gender. After all, everybody has or had a mother.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I was glad to note that the (CofE) church I attended this Sunday kept Lent 4 with the Prodigal Son gospel reading.

But Mothering Sunday is always Lent 4, irrespective of date. However - assuming you use the Revised Common Lectionary (do Anglicans use this?) then the readings come round on a 3-year cycle.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Just to make clear, in the service I attended, children were encouraged to give cards to all ladies and to men who requested it (I didn't).

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

{Missed edit window] ...

Actually I was quite naughty and preached on Mark 3, asking whether we had prioritised loyalty to our families over our Christian discipleship, and were too willing to 'give in' to their demands. [I tend to think that the Church has colluded in exalting certain models of 'family' too highly].

I was also naughty when I announced the hymn "As man and woman we are made" by saying, "Other models of relationship are available". This went down well with those who needed to hear it, but didn't seem to be generally noticed!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I was glad to note that the (CofE) church I attended this Sunday kept Lent 4 with the Prodigal Son gospel reading.
But Mothering Sunday is always Lent 4, irrespective of date. However - assuming you use the Revised Common Lectionary (do Anglicans use this?) then the readings come round on a 3-year cycle.

Yes we do - but there is an alternative set of readings more 'suitable' for Mothering Sunday - mhich means that the prodigal son rarely gets preached about - more's the pity.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Ah, I didn't know that.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
leo: mhich means that the prodigal son rarely gets preached about - more's the pity.

Agreed on the last part.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Actually I've never got it. A sort of escape from the privations of Lent? Simnel cake, in case our detox from giving up alcohol/chocolate/sex has driven us to the depths of despair? We have to observe it here because a parish makes its (liturgically delightful) choral visit to Mother Church each year, but really?.

I'd rather get on with the Lenten journey and leave mumsy for another day.

Bite me.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

We travelled as far as Norfolk to have Lent 4 and the Two Brothers.

My experience is that Lent 4 has disappeared in large swathes of the C of E over the last ten years.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd rather get on with the Lenten journey and leave mumsy for another day.

You could move to the United States. [Biased]

We don't have Mothering Sunday*, but we celebrate Mother's Day in May.

(* I'm sure there's some church somewhere in the U.S. that tries to be very British and do Mothering Sunday, but only because there's always an exception to every post.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd rather get on with the Lenten journey and leave mumsy for another day.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

The 1928 BCP lectionary gives the feeding of the five thousand as the Gospel, so Mothering Sunday is more or less unknown to those of us who still use it.

I tend to prefer the Church's calendar to that of Hallmark, anyway.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I tend to prefer the Church's calendar to that of Hallmark, anyway.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
mhich means that the prodigal son rarely gets preached about - more's the pity.

As much as I'm all for keeping Lent as Lent, the Prodigal Son* comes up as an Ordinary Time reading in Year C too: Week 24, which is the 11th of September this year. I realize the RCL uses different nomenclature to name that date, but I think the gospel will be the same.

--
* "Prodigal Father" / "Lost Sons" / "silenced mother" / "slaughter of the calf" / whatever else you want to call it.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

We had Mothering Sunday, with simnel cake afterwards. The usual complaints though - we should remember both our own mothers and the Mother of our Lord every day and therefore have simnel cake every week. The Prayers of the People were led by the leader of the Mothers' Union and included the Mothers' Union prayer which we all said. The sermon was on the Prodigal Son. Then in May, we shall observe Mothers' Day.

[ 08. March 2016, 20:01: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
mhich means that the prodigal son rarely gets preached about - more's the pity.
As much as I'm all for keeping Lent as Lent, the Prodigal Son* comes up as an Ordinary Time reading in Year C too: Week 24, which is the 11th of September this year. I realize the RCL uses different nomenclature to name that date, but I think the gospel will be the same.

--
* "Prodigal Father" / "Lost Sons" / "silenced mother" / "slaughter of the calf" / whatever else you want to call it.

Not in the C of E

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

September 11 in the RCL as used by the Episcopal Church (in the U.S.) is Proper 19. The Gospel reading is Luke 15:1-10 about the lost sheep and the lost coin.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

Interesting. I'm used to the RCL sometimes having longer readings than the Catholic Lectionary, but this is an instance of the RCL shortening the reading: from 15:1-32 down to just the first 10 verses.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd rather get on with the Lenten journey and leave mumsy for another day.

You could move to the United States.
We don't have Mothering Sunday*, but we celebrate Mother's Day in May.

I'm curious if Mothering Sunday in CofE services in the UK are as dreadful as Mother's Day services in American evangelical services. I know more than a few regular church-goers who stay home the 2nd Sunday in May. I would too but I'm the pastor so I gotta be there.
[Frown]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I tend to prefer the Church's calendar to that of Hallmark, anyway.

Of course, Mothering Sunday is part of the Church calendar (at least, some Church calendars). Mothers Day (whether middle of Lent of second Sunday in May) is the Hallmark version. We should be able to keep both, and keep them both apart. Just as we (mostly) manage to celebrate the Nativity of our Lord without Santa Claus, or the Crucifixion and Resurrection without the Easter Bunny.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd rather get on with the Lenten journey and leave mumsy for another day.
You could move to the United States.
We don't have Mothering Sunday*, but we celebrate Mother's Day in May.
I'm curious if Mothering Sunday in CofE services in the UK are as dreadful as Mother's Day services in American evangelical services. I know more than a few regular church-goers who stay home the 2nd Sunday in May. I would too but I'm the pastor so I gotta be there.

Mostly those services are horrible. I have seen Mothering Sunday celebrated talking about the traditions of the Mother Church and young people in service getting their one day off to return home to see their mothers (rural West Country), church clipping, primroses and violets from the hedgerows and other traditions. Here the traditions are potted or bunches of flowers to mothers, church parade and all age service. Church parade means that the uniformed groups are all corralled in, except we "forgot" this year, and last year.

There was one service that was so bad, led by the previous curate, I nearly wrote it up as a Mystery Worship and sent it back to them. Two hours of disorganisation, including 20 minutes to get their act together before the service started. That might have been the service where I was horrified to read the service booklet to find I was leading the actions for one of the songs. No, I had not been asked. Yes, I refused.

Another service that is often unnecessarily cutesy is the service nearest Valentines Day.

When I think about it, there are more reasons to stay away than go, more often than not.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I remember the anguished cry "Not those fucking daffodils again" in a previous discussion.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

In our place Mothering Sunday is a day for Family Eucharist, with additions:

every woman in church is presented with a posy
simnel cake is given to everybody
it is the Sunday in the choir's lent term when new choristers are admitted

We give flowers to all women because that is fair and also acknowledges that the performance of mothering isn't necessarily confined to women who have given birth. There is a proposal that next year we give flower to every adult, to acknowledge those men who end up being mother and father to their children.

But the service at its core is the same as for any other family eucharist.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Happened to be back at the Church of my Yoof (CofE) this Mothering Sunday. They'd made it a Family Eucharist, including Brownies, and the place was packed, which is something I hadn't seen there for a long time. The Vicar told me that while the monthly Family Eucharists get more people than the ordinary Sunday Eucharists, he thought they'd had a bigger turnout than usual because it was Mothering Sunday.

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, Mothering Sunday is part of the Church calendar (at least, some Church calendars).

Does anyone know why it's in the church calendar?
If mothering Sunday is about working people being given one day a year off in order to see their families, it’s hardly commendable christian behaviour by the employers, unless they hadn’t heard of the fourth commandment. Surely these days it should be over-ridden by an annual commemoration of the EU working time directive. [Devil]

If its origins are in the earlier tradition of going a-mothering, i.e. going to the cathedral, then anyone present in other churches has opted not to be involved, so it can be safely ignored.

The cutesy-mumsy-fest may get an increase in numbers attending, but it tells anyone with a less than ideal relationship with their mother or child, and anyone who is childless that the church dedicates one Sunday a year (almost 2% of its Sunday services) to rubbing salt in those wounds.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
The cutesy-mumsy-fest may get an increase in numbers attending.

Not in our church it doesn't. Perhaps things are different in the CofE.

quote:
It tells anyone with a less than ideal relationship with their mother or child, and anyone who is childless that the church dedicates one Sunday a year (almost 2% of its Sunday services) to rubbing salt in those wounds.

Yes. Although we specifically pray for such (and also those whose mums are deceased etc.) in our service.

[ 09. March 2016, 11:48: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I tend to prefer the Church's calendar to that of Hallmark, anyway.
Of course, Mothering Sunday is part of the Church calendar (at least, some Church calendars). Mothers Day (whether middle of Lent of second Sunday in May) is the Hallmark version. We should be able to keep both, and keep them both apart.

I detest Hallmark Holidays as much as the next guy, but a little historical perspective might be useful.

Ann Reeves Jarvis started advocating the idea of a Mother's Day around 1870. She was a peace activist who had cared for wounded soldiers during the Amercan Civil War. The original idea was to honor mothers who had lost sons in war or who had sons serving in the military, and the observance as she envisioned it had a peace and public health emphasis. She died in 1905, and her daughter held the first "modern" Mother's Day celebration in her honor in 1907 in Grafton, West Virginia. West Virginia made Mother's Day an official holiday in 1910; all states observed it within a few years, and Woodrow Wilson signed a proclamation for national observance in 1914.

The Hallmark card company was founded in 1910.

Jarvis's daughter advocated homemade gifts, cards and letters to mark the day. She detested and protested the way Hallmark and other card and candy companies tried to co-opt the holiday. At least where I live, homemade gifts are still quite common for Mother's (and Father's) Day, at least from the preschool and elementary school set.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Mothering Sunday origins

Personally, I think Mother's Day celebrations should be kept out of church and among family and friends.

But I have no objection, in general, to observing the lovely old English church tradition of Mothering Sunday. Thanks to the RCL there are plenty of scriptural options; and there are a few valuable lessons that can be drawn from the theme itself, whether it's the example of Biblical mothers, Mother Church, the importance of nourishing faith in young Christians etc.

How cutesy it gets, however, I suppose depends on a church's tradition. When I were a lass it was always little sprays of daffs wrapped in tinfoil handed out to the kids to give to mum. Nowadays it's very low key, with specially printed up cards to be given out - and anything additional is done in Sunday School.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm curious if Mothering Sunday in CofE services in the UK are as dreadful as Mother's Day services in American evangelical services. I know more than a few regular church-goers who stay home the 2nd Sunday in May. I would too but I'm the pastor so I gotta be there.

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Personally, I think Mother's Day celebrations should be kept out of church and among family and friends.

At our mainline, not evangelical, American shack, Mother's Day is acknowledged in the welcome before the start of the service and in the prayers of the people, which will include prayers for mothers, prayers for those grieving the loss of their mothers, those grieving the inability to be mothers, those who are mothers in spirit if not in fact, etc. There may also be a nod in a hymn or two that mentions mothers (e.g., "Now Thank We All Our God") or that describes God in a maternal way ("Sing Praise to God Who Reigns Above").

That's it, except that a few people may be seen following the old tradition of wearing a red rose if his or her mother is living, or a white rose if his or her mother is dead.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:

The cutesy-mumsy-fest may get an increase in numbers attending, but it tells anyone with a less than ideal relationship with their mother or child, and anyone who is childless that the church dedicates one Sunday a year (almost 2% of its Sunday services) to rubbing salt in those wounds.

Absolutely. Along with the mythologizing of motherhood as something that automatically grants sainthood. Then there's the special corsage honoring the mom with the most kids, the oldest and the newest or youngest mom-- all of which opportunities for Epic Awkward Moments.

The other factor is that in the US, it's counterpart (Father's Day-- do you have "fathering Sunday?) is treated much differently. If it's mentioned at all in the service it is usually in a sermon lecturing dads on how they're not living up to standard in their fathering. This is never a factor on Mother's Day-- it's almost always the reverse-- we should all live up to their exceptional near-God-like example of sacrificial love.

One of the few truly well done Mother's Day services was very low key, but helpful. The holiday was briefly but warmly acknowledged with a welcome for mothers and their adult children who were visiting that Sunday (no flowers or corsages). This segued into a very brief but genuine and thoughtful pastoral statement encompassing those for whom this day brings pain, indicating that they, too, are in our hearts and prayers this day. Then move on to worship service as usual.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

(cross posted with Nick Tamen, along similar lines)

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm all for blessing posies and handing them out.

When my mother was dying, I took a posy from church to give her. It was the last time I think she understood anything I said. Our relationship had not been unproblematic.

But I am very against replacing the readings and collect for Lent 4.

Unfortunately in England, it seems to pack 'em in, which is why it is so popular and made much more of than in the recent past.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
mhich means that the prodigal son rarely gets preached about - more's the pity.
As much as I'm all for keeping Lent as Lent, the Prodigal Son* comes up as an Ordinary Time reading in Year C too: Week 24, which is the 11th of September this year. I realize the RCL uses different nomenclature to name that date, but I think the gospel will be the same..

The C of E lectionary only has the preceding two parables of lost sheep and coin.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
That's it, except that a few people may be seen following the old tradition of wearing a red rose if his or her mother is living, or a white rose if his or her mother is dead.

I like it, but in Britain, that would mean that they come from Lancashire or Yorkshire! Anyway, it couldn't be an old tradition here as roses aren't naturally in season.

[ 09. March 2016, 15:55: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

In the US, Mother's Day is the second Sunday in May. That is also the day that we do our May Crowning of the Blessed Mother.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
That's it, except that a few people may be seen following the old tradition of wearing a red rose if his or her mother is living, or a white rose if his or her mother is dead.
I like it, but in Britain, that would mean that they come from Lancashire or Yorkshire! Anyway, it couldn't be an old tradition here as roses aren't naturally in season.

I grew up with the tradition of white and pink carnations (also signifying mothers dead or alive). This was in the U.S., so it didn't have anything to do with the War of the Roses.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

It seems that nobody read my post properly where I stated that I did not regard Mothering Sunday as Mother's Day (well not in Australia anyway). Often it is referred to as Refreshment Sunday. It certainly has nothing to do with Hallmark cards

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

In the UK, do you have "Fathering Day"? How does it correspond to US's "Father's Day"?

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
It seems that nobody read my post properly where I stated that I did not regard Mothering Sunday as Mother's Day (well not in Australia anyway). Often it is referred to as Refreshment Sunday. It certainly has nothing to do with Hallmark cards

Yes, I think folks understood that. I think that English shipmates have been commenting on what has happened to Mothering Sunday in England, where I don't think there is a Mother's Day.

Personally, I have no experience at all with Mothering Sunday. I've never heard of an American church observing it, though I'm sure someone will now point me to one that does. Laetare Sunday, yes, but not Mothering Sunday. FWIW, I did just check the website of the Anglo-Catholic parish with which I am most familiar. (There aren't many in these parts.) Their calendar designated this last Sunday as "Rose Sunday." The RC cathedral for this diocese marked the day as Laetare Sunday.

[ 10. March 2016, 00:48: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Yes, I think folks understood that. I think that English shipmates have been commenting on what has happened to Mothering Sunday in England, where I don't think there is a Mother's Day.

In the UK, Mother's Day and Mothering Sunday fall on the same day. They are two distinct events, which often get mixed together when we join together on that 4th Sunday morning of Lent - in part because much of the UK Mother's Day tradition is tied into Mothering Sunday.

The American version of Mother's Day has a different origin to Mothering Sunday, and the UK Mother's Day, and we do not mark Mother's Day in May.

I'm not sure whether or not that clarifies anything.

And, we also have Father's Day on the third Sunday in June. Which has been imported from the US, as we don't have our own Father's Day tradition.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

It does clarify things, Alan. Thanks.

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :

At my parish, we had the sermon on the prodigal son, rose vestments, simnel cake in abundance. As well as an explanation on the different ways Mothering Sunday is celebrated in the UK. In Australia it's not considered as Mother's Day.

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

The historic reason for Mothering Sunday is that the Epistle for the Sunday traditionally was from Galatians 4:26 which refers to Jerusalem as the "Mother of us all."

Primarily the day originated to revere the Church, and only in recent times did it come to honor actual human mothers.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

egad you two /\ look similar ... you'd confuse anyone but a mumsy

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Alan Cresswell

quote:
In the UK, Mother's Day and Mothering Sunday fall on the same day. They are two distinct events, which often get mixed together when we join together on that 4th Sunday morning of Lent - in part because much of the UK Mother's Day tradition is tied into Mothering Sunday.

I was taught that it was a case that in the UK we have always had Mothering Sunday and the notion of "Mothers' Day" arrived with card manufacturers importing stock and designs from the USA.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

That was what I understood. And the reason was the Galatians epistle.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

For those who want to know Fathers Day exists in the UK but is seen as a recent innovation and attracts far less fuss than Mothering Sunday.

Jengie

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
For those who want to know Fathers Day exists in the UK but is seen as a recent innovation and attracts far less fuss than Mothering Sunday.

Jengie

My father has always been very clear that he doesn't believe in it, and he has consequently never had it marked in the smallest way.* This *is* actually what he wants, he's not being bashful. He marked Mother's Day for his own mother.

*key reasoning appears to be "because it's American."

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