Ship of Fools: Will no one rid me of this comical priest?

Thread: Will no one rid me of this comical priest? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

According to a report in the Telegraph, which in turn references (but doesn't link to) a survey of churchgoers.

Aside from the sloppy journalism, which doesn't readily allow the reader to investigate the survey's integrity or question the timing (a week before a trade exhibition), do shipmates think there's a point here?

Should humour be banished, tolerated or celebrated? If a minister makes a joke, is that all you remember? If you'd just come along to a church as a visitor (possibly with an MW card about your person) or a newcomer, what impression might a joke make? Does it depend on whether it was any good or not?

The hyperbole of the plank in one's own eye seems to me as though it's meant to be funny rather than bitingly sarcastic. I'm far from convinced that God is without a sense of humour, but do appreciate the need for gravitas at times. Where I hesitate where some have equated a toning down of humour as stripping the church of joy; surely they're not the same thing.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I use humour and anecdotes where it is appropriate but it's important to know that listeners often remember these more than the serious points being made.

As for George Carey, he's a bad preacher.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I only heard Desmond Tutu preach once, in 1984. Some jokes, but very much to the point and fixed the message in my memory.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

One of the problems with using jokes is that they are usually old. With the internet, there seem to be a fixed number of jokes that get recycled over and over. (Some of them I remember from before the age of the internet.) Humor can certainly serve a purpose in a sermon, but not tired old jokes.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

One or two, max. If I want comedy, there are clubs. The best jokes are the ones that only clergy know -- they may be old, but here in the pews we haven't heard them. Our rector trotted out the old chestnut recently, about the priest who was six days unavailable and the seventh day incomprehensible, and I immediately stole it.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Humor can certainly serve a purpose in a sermon, but not tired old jokes.

Yes, there's a difference between humor and jokes. I welcome humor in a sermon. Jokes, not so much. Almost without exception, jokes sound contrived to me. Humor, on the other hand, can draw the listener in.

My grandmother always maintained that the Gospels make clear that Jesus had a great sense of humor. Otherwise, she said, people wouldn't have been clamoring to have him to dinner all the time.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

As with most things, it depends.

We have probably all heard the priest who uses the "start with an old groaner to get their attention and then get to the sermon" trick, and that should probably be discouraged.

Humor used to illustrate points can be effective. I think many of us have experienced the moment when we realized that the Holy Spirit was in motion, and it makes us laugh at our prior frustration and blindness to the Spirit. If you have a story like that and it is applicable to the texts you are addressing, I think that is more than fine.

TEC's Presiding Bishop is a very funny guy, and works a lot of humor into his sermons, but he balances it with enough powerful truth that you don't mistake the sermon for a standup routine.

That gets to another point- you have to make sure that the joke isn't about you getting a laugh. We have all seen priests who have to be the center of attention at all times (baptisms are particularly painful for them). Is the joke about you needing a laugh, or is it about showing a truth?

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

A well-generated laugh can focus the attention of those listening, at least for several minutes if it's followed up with compelling and equally well-said content. Extra credit if what makes people laugh is also closely related to a main point of the sermon.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Some jokes, but very much to the point and fixed the message in my memory.

Certainlly jokes, anecdotes, or anything else needs to be relevant to the point. As has been said, people remember the anecdotes and jokes, and if that all they're going to remember well make sure that when the recall the joke and ask "what was the point he was making when he said that?" the joke itself points them in the right sort of direction to recall the point.

I've certainly no problems with humour in sermons. On two occasions I've preached on the Beattitudes, and that just calls for a reference to cheesemakers - because it's amazing how much people mishear even the most familiar of Scriptures. And, I couldn't help but see the funny side of the first time I preached being given a lectionary text "Not many of you should become teachers ... because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly", and used that to step into the text.

But, if you start your sermon with an anecdote or joke just because "that's how it's done" then something is wrong.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Far more annoying are videos or music recordings used to 'illustrate' the sermon.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Our assistant bishop is a Yorkshireman and a very good chap- a very good preacher too, when he's being serious- but he does sometimes seem to think he's doing second house at the old Bradford Alhambra. This does not, IMO, add much to his message.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Far more annoying are videos or music recordings used to 'illustrate' the sermon.

Amen! I remember in 1968 sitting through "Abraham, Martin, and John" in place of a sermon. I was actually glad that my mother was home recovering from a party the night before, because she probably would have stormed out.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I remember in 1968 sitting through "Abraham, Martin, and John" in place of a sermon.

Good song, but wow - that's just plain lazy on the preacher's part.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I remember in 1968 sitting through "Abraham, Martin, and John" in place of a sermon.
Good song, but wow - that's just plain lazy on the preacher's part.

Needless to say, he went on to be a Bishop.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Argh! If a preacher pulls that on me I swear I will not only walk out of the sermon, I'll quit the denomination.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Unless I am much mistaken, Jesus used humor in his preaching.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

There's not much to be seen online AFAICT about this survey at the moment. The story in the Telegraph suggests that people were asked about the most important element(s) of the sermon. This doesn't mean necessarily, as the report implies, that other elements were unwelcome.

I want my GP to be an excellent diagnostician, with great therapeutic skills. I rate them as being more important in his role as GP than a warm and friendly manner, empathetic skills or a good sense of humour. That said, the consultations I have with my GP are likely to be both better experiences, and more effective in their task if the latter qualities are also present.

In his Lectures to my Students Spurgeon says

quote:
Sometimes, anecdotes have force in them on account of their appealing to the sense of the ludicrous. Of course, I must be very careful here, for it is a sort of tradition of the fathers that it is wrong to laugh on Sundays. The eleventh commandment is, that we are to love one another, and then, according to some people, the twelfth is, "Thou shalt pull a long face on Sunday." I must confess that I would rather hear people laugh than I would see them asleep in the house of God; and I would rather get the truth into them through the medium of ridicule than I would have the truth neglected, or leave the people to perish through lack of reception of the truth.

[ 10. May 2016, 19:02: Message edited by: BroJames ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I have enjoyed the title of this thread. [Overused]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The famous Baptist preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon used a lot of humour in his sermons. This attracted a lot of criticism. To one lady’s comment he replied, “Madam, you may very well be right. But if you knew the number of jokes I do not tell you, and the number of things that I refrain from saying, you would give me more credit than you are giving me”.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Best put-down of a 'comical' sermon giving preacher I ever heard came from a Downs teenager who asked him after the service "What are you going to be when you grow up?"

The 'sermon' had involved glove puppets of Sooty and Sweep being unearthed from the depths of his cassock and then a trite 'dialogue' between the two.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Our Bishop sometimes brings "Dexter" with him (but only for the children's talk).
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

The sort of person who delights in telling 'jokes' is in my experience the least likely to have a sense of humour.

As always, and inevitably in an incarnational religion like ours, it's a matter of balance. On the one extreme you have Father Poker-up-the-bum, who conducts the liturgy as if he (and it's usually he) were a robot controlled by the spirits of Fortescue and O'Connell, and preaches pure dogma without any leaven of humanity; at the other we have The Reverend Call-me-Mike Look-at-me, whose end of the pier performances bear as much resemblance to the liturgy of the Church as the products of Starbucks have to coffee.

Clergy (and others who preach) need to remember that they speak and act in the name of the whole Church, but also that they are human beings and pastors. To be pastoral implies a degree of human warmth in the encounter, and almost certainly this includes humour. That is not the same thing as telling jokes or being 'the life and soul of the party.'

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Very wise words, Angloid, as ever.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

On Sunday, the one line that got a fair few sniggers, if not outright laughter was: "And here are some words from John Calvin that I actually agree with."

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Sipech,

That's a direct steal from the Dean (IIRC) of Christ Church, Oxford, who began a sermon thusly,

'Saint Paul has said, and I partly agree.'

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Not exactly a joke, but a vivid sermon beginning from a former rector,

'You miss the point completely, Julia; there were no tigers.'

It led beautifully into his point about a misunderstood scripture passage, but years later I only remember the lead-in.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
On the one extreme you have Father Poker-up-the-bum

I am beginning to wonder what pastoral care is in place for those with these things up their bums - maybe Katie hopkins will have some guidance.

[ 11. May 2016, 19:48: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Not exactly a joke, but a vivid sermon beginning from a former rector,

'You miss the point completely, Julia; there were no tigers.'

It led beautifully into his point about a misunderstood scripture passage, but years later I only remember the lead-in.

That's in the Towers of Trebizond class, that is.
John Bowker, when he was Dean of Trinity, usually used to begin his sermons with a quotation from a song or something like that. The picture that sticks in my mind is of him standing in the body of the chapel, grasping the lectern, and declaiming roundly, in a voice that steadily dropped in volume, pitch and speed:

Little boxes...on the hillside
Little boxes....made of ticky-tacky
Little boxes....on the hillside
And they all look just the same.

There's a green one..and a pink one..and a blue one..and a yellow one
And they're all...made...out of ticky...tacky and they...all...look..just the same.

Of course, by the time he was done everyone was hanging breathless waiting for his next word. I used to do an impression of it that when teaching my students presentation skills, as an example of how to use your voice to get an audience's full attention!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Giles Fraser has a good take on this.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Sipech,

That's a direct steal from the Dean (IIRC) of Christ Church, Oxford, who began a sermon thusly,

'Saint Paul has said, and I partly agree.'

Knowing the person who said it, I strongly doubt it's a steal. More probably a similar thought process.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Humour and irony are one thing and I can vividly remember some very funny comments.

Jokes (in the sense of "man walked into a pub") are quite another.

And starting a sermon with an "amusing" anecdote is a risk - there are different responses to humour.

The number of times I've thought five minutes into the sermon "Get on with it..."

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

This reminds me of two kinds of humor services I have attended, first a clown Mass where the priest (Episcopal) was decked out in clown make up. As clowns scare me anyway I did not enjoy it at all. It just seemed very strange.
The second is that many American churches are resurrecting an old Easter custom begun by the early Greek Christians --- "Bright Sunday" There in place of a sermon the priest simply told jokes as a reminder that Easter allows us to laugh at the devil. I could see the point of this custom, but although I have attended several Bright Sunday services I hope they do not really catch on.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Bright Sunday sounds great. Though, I'd question the assumption that the priest knows all the best jokes.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Bright Sunday sounds great. Though, I'd question the assumption that the priest knows all the best jokes.

...or that he can deliver them well.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
The second is that many American churches are resurrecting an old Easter custom begun by the early Greek Christians --- "Bright Sunday" There in place of a sermon the priest simply told jokes as a reminder that Easter allows us to laugh at the devil. I could see the point of this custom, but although I have attended several Bright Sunday services I hope they do not really catch on.

I have often heard the claim that Bright Sunday/Holy Humor Sunday is somehow based on an old Greek Orthodox tradition, but I've never seen any citation to back up that claim, nor have I ever come across any mention of anything like it in an Orthodox source. As a result, I'm rather sceptical of the claim.

From Clown Masses and Holy Humor Sundays,
Good Lord, deliver us.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Next time I'm leading worship, and the lectionary readings are reasonably appropriate, I'm going to do a Bright Sunday. It won't be Easter, because the minister always preaches then. Just to spite the dour killjoys [Biased]

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Alan Bright Sunday is the Sunday following Easter Sunday, when the second in line often preaches.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

I think we call that 'Low Sunday'. So either our jokes are crap, or our humour is off-colour...

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Bright Sunday sounds great. Though, I'd question the assumption that the priest knows all the best jokes.

Went to an Irish wedding years ago where, the bride's father being dead, the PP did the speech at the reception. he began by pulling a sheet of A4 out of his pocket and reading off three or four wedding jokes in an engaging and deliberately deadpan manner. It was very funny.

Posted by Adam. (# 4991) on :

According the this great talk on priesthood, communicating joy is rather an important part of ministry:

quote:

Number Two: Smile. At the very end of the fourth century a rather disenchanted deacon from Carthage named Deogratias wrote to Augustine lamenting his own belabored and beleaguered experience of teaching, and wanting from Augustine pointers on how and what to preach. The fruit of this request is the De catechizandis rudibus, a helpful little book not least because it reminds those of us who are entrusted with preaching that it’s not merely about imparting information or even conveying a message; it’s about drawing souls into a living history and that the heart of the faith isn’t an idea, but a Person and a salvific encounter into which we are drawn and participate by sacrament. A millennium before Marshall McLuhan proclaimed that the medium is the message, Augustine was advising Deogratias that his preaching should be animated by hilaritas. What he did not mean was that he should start every homily with a joke, much less that he should trundle about chortling or being back-slappingly giddy, but that he should be animated by a cheerfulness, his manner infused with a kind of levity, akin to that fruit of the Spirit, joy, which communicates a delight in the things of God. Now, this is possible only for those who are dispossessed of themselves, who don’t consider themselves the center of the cosmic drama, and who recognize that it’s about Jesus, and not themselves. Happy priests are priests whose affective life is balanced, whose spiritual life is solid, and who are thus both approachable and capable of leading others to God. The last thing the Holy Roman Church needs is glum, disaffected, or whiney priests. Vocations to the priesthood will blossom in parishes and schools where the people of God encounter priests who are vital, joyful, and whose love for the Lord is communicated as much by their bearing as by their words. Augustine, who has lots to say about lots of stuff, knew that even if one is not the best preacher, the joy with which one lives and moves and preaches and prays will itself communicate the heart of the Gospel: the humble love of God, made flesh, embodied, in the face of human pride.

[ 19. May 2016, 12:40: Message edited by: Adam. ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Joy is one thing. Jokes are another.

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