Thread: Charismatic Evensong? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=030481
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I enjoy Evensong, but I often wonder if the format has ever been used in less 'traditional' settings or with less traditional contributions.
Has anyone ever come across it in a house or cell church? Has a worship band or a soloist ever taken the place of the choir? Is recorded music ever used instead of live musicians?
And do you think more churches might benefit from adapting the Evensong format for their own circumstances?
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
Well, there's this.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
I'm not totally clear what you think a "charismatic" Evensong would look like. If you mean a charismatic evening service in a Cathedral, then there are examples of this. Justin Welby recently hosted a celebration service on a Sunday evening at Canterbury Cath - I'm not entirely sure what happened because I didn't go, but it was led by a (extremely) low and charismatic parish church. Other English Cathedrals regularly have low Anglican evening services, thinking particularly of Coventry, which has had it in place for many years.
If you are meaning a less traditional service which follows a set liturgy, then there are many low Anglican churches which follow this pattern. My teenage years were spent in a very Charismatic Anglican church which nonetheless integrated the charismatic "stuff" into the ASB service. I think the fashion today for the most charismatic Anglican churches is to more-or-less ignore the liturgy altogether in most services, but I couldn't say for certain as I've not been in those circles for quite a long time.
But if you are specifically talking about Evensong, which everything that it implies in an English Anglican context, then there are some pretty serious issues which might make it pretty hard to pull off as a low Anglican or charismatic service. For one thing, most Evensongs have little "audience participation", with most of the responses, psalms, anthems etc sung by the choir and listened to by the congregation. What would that look like in a low Anglican church? What are you suggesting would be the setting for the psalms etc?
Of course it is possible to have Congregational or choir-led singing of the liturgy - I know one low but not charismatic Anglican parish where they have their own setting for almost all the liturgy which they sing. Which is odd if you don't know the tune.
Is that a start at answering your question? Or could you be more specific about what it is that you're asking?
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
Of course, Evensong doesn't require a choir.
In my childhood parish Evensong was all sung by the congregation with the canticles sung to Anglican chant (and pretty grim it was). Charismatic it wasn't.
But on weekdays in conscientious parish churches it is recited without singing. There would be space for extempore prayer.
[ 03. June 2016, 08:10: Message edited by: venbede ]
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Of course, Evensong doesn't require a choir.
In my childhood parish Evensong was all sung by the congregation with the canticles sung to Anglican chant (and pretty grim it was). Charismatic it wasn't.
But on weekdays in conscientious parish churches it is recited without singing. There would be space for extempore prayer.
I'm not sure how many Anglican parish churches follow Evensong, but doubt many do it midweek. Reciting the liturgy isn't Evensong, and there are a good number of fairly low Anglican churches which read and never sing or chant the canticles.
When I first heard the Magnificat sung, I wasn't even aware that it could be.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
I am not sure about evensong. I have, however, been to a fully sung Eucharist that was very definitely Charismatic!
Actually, almost certainly could be, it would require some interest by a Charismatic songwriter in working with the canticles, but given the amount of Biblical stuff they have already got to go with charismatic-style worship music, that would not be too difficult. I would imagine something not a million miles from this youtube version of the magnificat.
Jengie
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
As for a 'charismatic Evensong', I'm sure one could work within the basic framework to make the service what you want: one of the joys of the BCP was that the services could be very flexible!
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Reciting the liturgy isn't Evensong,
Sorry, don't understand you. Evening Prayer aka Evensong is part of the liturgy of the BCP.
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on
:
Although I think it would be unusual to call it Evensong unless there was actually singing. Without singing it would just be Evening Prayer.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I should say that I'm not Anglican, and I only know Evensong from one liberal catholic church that has a very good choir, and from occasionally attending services at a cathedral. There's probably a world of 'Evensong experience' that I'm unaware of, and I'd like to know more about whatever kind of diversity exists.
Since Evensong is often described as the church's 'best kept secret' one might expect there to be some attempt to promote and adapt its charms for different contexts and situations.
(I'm aware that the CofE obviously has other services, and that Evening Prayer doesn't use a choir, but it's Evensong that interests me.)
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
This may be true in your parish and in your corner of the Anglican church, but it certainly isn't true in mine nor in the majority of the "rump" of low Anglican churches.
The vast majority of low Anglican parish churches have 3 services a week (excepting weddings, funerals etc) - twice on a Sunday and a midweek communion.
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
And, I have to say, I'd find a church which had two services a day of led prayers very attractive. I don't believe such places exist very often in the Anglican Church in England, and certainly don't exist in the circles in which I've moved for decades.
quote:
As for a 'charismatic Evensong', I'm sure one could work within the basic framework to make the service what you want: one of the joys of the BCP was that the services could be very flexible!
Hahahaha. I rather like the idea of a BCP charismatic service. That would be very interesting to attend.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I should say that I'm not Anglican, and I only know Evensong from one liberal catholic church that has a very good choir, and from occasionally attending services at a cathedral. There's probably a world of 'Evensong experience' that I'm unaware of, and I'd like to know more about whatever kind of diversity exists.
Well it does, but it depends exactly how you are defining the terms. As I've suggested above, there are charismatic Anglican churches which regularly use the liturgy (although I'm doubting many use the BCP). And there are low Anglican churches which are some way along the road towards the charismatic which use (for example) guitars and drums instead of a choir in liturgical services.
And there are some churches which are not charismatic and do not have a choir but have what they describe as "Evensong" which is a service where everyone sings the psalms and other responses. I went to one like this the other week.
If you are asking whether the psalms and canticles could be written in a contemporary style and sung by the congregation with the backbone of the Anglican liturgy, then I'm sure they can - and it might be possible to argue that this is Evensong.
But if you are looking at the New Wine end of the Charismatic Anglican spectrum and asking whether there could be "manifestations of the Spirit", words, pictures, extended periods of contemporary Christian music and so on - then I'd say no. These kinds of service do not tend to work very well with structured liturgy. I'm not sure how one would organise it with the BCP, the ASB, Common Worship etc.
It might be possible to do something with the Anglican liturgy which came out to be more-or-less like a Taize service, but I'm not sure whether you'd be defining that as "charismatic".
quote:
Since Evensong is often described as the church's 'best kept secret' one might expect there to be some attempt to promote and adapt its charms for different contexts and situations.
I think Evensong is a particular thing in a particular context - which in a British context usually means a choral service with a trained choir and a defined liturgy. I'm struggling to understand how you think it would be possible to take it out of that context and into another one - when the one you want to transplant it into is (to some extent) the antithesis of it.
Anglican liturgy can do many things, but giving structure to those who want services without that kind of structure isn't one of them.
quote:
(I'm aware that the CofE obviously has other services, and that Evening Prayer doesn't use a choir, but it's Evensong that interests me.)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
The CofE is not my church, as I said, so it's not for me to say to what extent any kind of adaptation of Evensong would be possible, acceptable, or desirable in the CofE. I'm just an outsider who sits in a pew!
My title for this thread didn't presume any fixed idea of what 'charismatic' meant. I used it as an example of the possible diverse settings and adaptability of Evensong. I might equally have used 'Home Church Evensong?' or 'Messy Church Evensong?' or whatever. Others are free to state if and how these contexts and their associated practices might or might not be compatible with Evensong.
For example, if you're saying that adapting Evensong beyond a certain point would destroy the structure and purpose of Evensong in a CofE context, then fair enough. That makes sense. I suppose that non-traditional church groups might use Evensong as a resource to be plundered, if you like, but the end result wouldn't be Evensong itself. (So far, though, the thread hasn't yielded any examples of this.)
I don't understand your 'confused' emoticon at the end. What's the issue there?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Local parish church to me has Morning Prayer at 8:30am as part of the routine of opening the church for the day. Different people lead on different days. There is also a public Evening Prayer one evening. It's not the first parish church I've attended where this is normal. At another church we had morning, midday and evening prayer said publicly in the church during Lent.
Evensong tends to be chanted by the congregation or Choral Evensong sung by the choir. I have attended, and led, alternative evening services, Taize, prayer walks, labyrinth prayer, Café church, but these ran alongside a monthly Choral Evensong, and were not as well attended as the formal Evensong services. (Incredibly positive in other ways, so many people, one or two each week, looking for an open church on a Sunday evening to come and pray.)
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Evening Prayer - and Morning Prayer, come to that - should be said in most churches daily, since it is part of a priest's routine to say the offices daily, and it is preferable that these be said publicly.
In my church the PP says his Offices in church 4 days a week and there is usually someone to say them with him.
This may be true in your parish and in your corner of the Anglican church, but it certainly isn't true in mine nor in the majority of the "rump" of low Anglican churches.
The vast majority of low Anglican parish churches have 3 services a week (excepting weddings, funerals etc) - twice on a Sunday and a midweek communion.
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
Beware of generalisations. The church nearest to me is as low as you can get (north-end communion with black scarf) but they say Morning Prayer every morning, and ring the bell as recommended in the BCP. I'm not sure if they do the same in the evening but I wouldn't be surprised.
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness. And to be fair, the much more stressed and overworked life of the clergy. But if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness.
I was rather under the impression that it was required by the canons both for every priest to say morning and evening prayer daily, and for every incumbent to ensure that morning and evening prayer was said daily in one of the churches in his parish.
Yes, here it is.
quote:
C 26 Of the manner of life of clerks in Holy Orders
1. Every clerk in Holy Orders is under obligation, not being let by sickness or some other urgent cause, to say daily the Morning and Evening Prayer, either privately or openly; and to celebrate the Holy Communion, or be present thereat, on all Sundays and other principal Feast Days. He is also to be diligent in daily prayer and intercession, in examination of his conscience, and in the study of the Holy Scriptures and such other studies as pertain to his ministerial duties.
There's more wriggle room about saying it publicly - canons B11 and B14A allow the Bishop and PCC to dispense with the requirement "for good reason", which in these degenerate days would probably include "nobody comes".
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've never ever heard of a parish church that had daily (or near daily) Morning and Evening prayer and if the incumbent is expected to follow the liturgy in their own prayers, I've never ever been invited to join him or her.
Every church i have ever belonged to - that's 5 over my lifetime, had had and still does have the daily offices and a decent number of layfolk who support the priest (or replace him/her on his/her day off).
[ 03. June 2016, 14:06: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
agree but many clergy find the offices too wordy for prayer - a much stripped down office would help and there are some in existence.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Beware of generalisations. The church nearest to me is as low as you can get (north-end communion with black scarf) but they say Morning Prayer every morning, and ring the bell as recommended in the BCP. I'm not sure if they do the same in the evening but I wouldn't be surprised.
I was just wondering if I was going completely mad and so looked at the service times of all the parishes in my deanery.
There are 19 parishes. 4 have Morning Prayer on weekdays, one of those has Evening Prayer on one of the days.
5 have midweek services, one has two services in the week.
I can't find accurate information about one of them.
Of those which have Morning Prayer, only one could be described as "low Anglican".
So approximately a quarter of my local churches have weekday morning prayer services. Hence, whichever way you might want to divide it, having daily Morning Prayer services is not normal practice around here.
quote:
Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old man (well, I am), but I don't think the abandonment of the Anglican tradition as suggested above, has much to do with 'churchpersonship', but more to do with laziness. And to be fair, the much more stressed and overworked life of the clergy. But if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
I don't think it is laziness, I think it is a lack of appreciation from your part that all Anglican churches are not the way you'd want them to be. In fact, the vast majority are not following the pattern of worship you seem to think is normal.
That you think the "lowest of the low" Anglican churches are characterised by "north-end communion with black scarf" just shows how little you know about a large number of churches in your own denomination.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Every church i have ever belonged to - that's 5 over my lifetime, had had and still does have the daily offices and a decent number of layfolk who support the priest (or replace him/her on his/her day off).
I've a regular at 5 Anglican parish churches, most of which have been very low or charismatic. None of them had Morning Prayer when I was there, one has started it since.
We all experience the Anglican church in different ways.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
Anyway, I wonder if we can agree what the essence of Evensong is. I'd think it was the sung psalms, canticles and responses in a distinct liturgical form.
Can it be Evensong if there is no liturgical form? Could a church, say, sing the various different parts without the rest of the liturgy?
I suspect there are contemporary songs based on the Magnificat and canticles, would it be Evensong if they were used?
My view is that Evensong without the surrounding liturgy is stretching the meaning of the term. But I can't really see that using the liturgy with modern settings for the music is.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Surely Evensong has to include (a) at least the obligatory liturgical passages from the BCP or Common Worship service of Evening Prayer; and (b) at least some singing, not necessarily by a choir.
Anything less is either some other kind of "evening service" or isn't evensong.
[ 03. June 2016, 14:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is laziness, I think it is a lack of appreciation from your part that all Anglican churches are not the way you'd want them to be. In fact, the vast majority are not following the pattern of worship you seem to think is normal.
That you think the "lowest of the low" Anglican churches are characterised by "north-end communion with black scarf" just shows how little you know about a large number of churches in your own denomination.
Ok, the 'laziness' comment was unfair, and grumpy. I take that back. And of course I appreciate that the office is not everybody's devotional cup of tea. But a church that is locked from one weekend to the next is not the most inspiring witness.
And of course I know that many Anglican churches have very little in the way of formal liturgy. Perhaps it's a difference of definition, but I wouldn't equate charismatic and low-church worship (or even evangelical theology, but that is another debate). All I was doing was pointing out that regular saying of the offices, publicly in church, is not confined to one section of the church. And black scarf communion is low church however you look at it.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Surely Evensong has to include (a) at least the obligatory liturgical passages from the BCP or Common Worship service of Evening Prayer; and (b) at least some singing, not necessarily by a choir.
Anything less is either some other kind of "evening service" or isn't evensong.
'Evensong' is simply the traditional name for what the BCP (and modern RC books) call Evening Prayer, or traditionally in the RCC Vespers. Presumably it gets the name because it was traditionally sung in monasteries and 'quires and places where they sing', but 'said Evensong' is not a contradiction in terms and I have often heard the expression.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
]Ok, the 'laziness' comment was unfair, and grumpy. I take that back. And of course I appreciate that the office is not everybody's devotional cup of tea. But a church that is locked from one weekend to the next is not the most inspiring witness.
Absolutely agree.
quote:
And of course I know that many Anglican churches have very little in the way of formal liturgy. Perhaps it's a difference of definition, but I wouldn't equate charismatic and low-church worship (or even evangelical theology, but that is another debate).
Yes, I agree it isn't necessarily all the same thing. The charismatic Anglican parish church of my teenage years was very charismatic but had fully robed clergy.
I also realise now that one of the regular worship songs was a setting of the Magnificat, played on the guitar. I don't know why I hadn't realised that before.
A low-but-not-really-charismatic church I attended for some years had a very cutdown and limited liturgy and the vicar never wore any robes or anything. I don't think I ever even saw him wear a dog collar.
quote:
All I was doing was pointing out that regular saying of the offices, publicly in church, is not confined to one section of the church. And black scarf communion is low church however you look at it.
In the lowest Anglican churches, priests wear nothing identifiable as clerical garb.
It seems to me that there is a layer of "lowness" beyond that which you are aware.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Said Evensong' is not a contradiction in terms and I have often heard the expression.
So have I (and I've used it too!), but it still doesn't sound right.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
if they are not praying regularly they can't be very effective spiritually, pastorally or any other way.
agree but many clergy find the offices too wordy for prayer - a much stripped down office would help and there are some in existence.
Pish-tush. It's perfectly possible to do BCP MP or EP in 15 or so minutes- although possibly with some selectivity among the psalms. And the repetition is part of the framework within which other prayer can happen. But in any case, this isn't just about the cleric's private devotions: it should be part of a corporate act,all pulling on the same rope.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
]In the lowest Anglican churches, priests wear nothing identifiable as clerical garb.
It seems to me that there is a layer of "lowness" beyond that which you are aware.
I am perfectly aware. But 'informal' and 'low church' are not the same thing. Traditional 'low' Anglican worship was defined by loyalty to the BCP and the clergy wearing surplice and scarf for everything. I have experienced informal (not always charismatic) worship in churches that would self-describe as 'liberal' or even 'catholic'; and I have presided at the eucharist in such churches wearing ordinary street clothes.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I am perfectly aware. But 'informal' and 'low church' are not the same thing. Traditional 'low' Anglican worship was defined by loyalty to the BCP and the clergy wearing surplice and scarf for everything. I have experienced informal (not always charismatic) worship in churches that would self-describe as 'liberal' or even 'catholic'; and I have presided at the eucharist in such churches wearing ordinary street clothes.
I stand corrected, you're using a different definition of "low" to me.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
If a charismatic church were to adopt something like an Evensong, then I think the key question would be: What do you hope to get from it? Or perhaps, what is it about such an Anglican service that is good and could serve as inspiration for a charismatic church?
If you’re a conservative, taking the BCP to be normative, then one would have to do a copy+paste job, which would seem to defeat the object. Where the charismatic church makes room for the Holy Spirit, the liturgical largely excludes it by scripting the whole service. Though perhaps one could look at On Fire Mission for hints at how these two approaches might be balanced.
You have to remember that from a charismatic perspective, most Anglican services look alike. It's a bit like someone from Manchester looking at London and taking the whole place as one large area, while the Londoners view Hampstead and Chelsea as wholly different parts of the world which only a fool would get wrong.
If you dropped me or most charismatics in the middle of an Anglican service, we probably couldn't tell (without looking at the watch or the script sheet) whether we were in a Matins, a Mass or an Evensong. It's all minor variations at one end of christianity. Likewise, if an Anglican stumbled into a charismatic church, they might not be able to tell the difference between a New Frontiers church and Hillsong.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
There are several things that Evensong could potentially bring to, or emphasise, in charismatic worship.
One is that Evensong a very contemplative space. To me, this mirrors a certain something in Pentecostalism which is that even in the midst of loud singing, prayers and other people speaking in tongues, the individual is free, somehow, to engage in his or her own prayers and contemplations.
The other is the repetitive nature of Evensong. Following exactly the same format week after week liberates me from the yearning I've often had for something different and 'uplifting' in a (non-charismatic) church service. Such a yearning, I found, frequently led to disappointment in church worship. In charismatic churches where there's a certain weariness setting in due to everyone looking for the 'next big thing' it might provide a kind of antidote.
More generally, although the Protestant way is often to emphasise the importance of the sermon, sermons may be vacuous, jumbled, or just don't seem relevant to one's own spiritual needs. With Evensong, though, the sermons are often very short and focused on a single point without padding. This would presumably be transferable to the kinds of charismaticism where most learning occurs in small groups, meaning that the longish, rambling sermon isn't necessary.
Evensong in a charismatic context might simply provide an opportunity for calmer, low-key worship for members who don't gel completely with the livelier, more extrovert style of the morning service.
(As I said above, though, I'm not trying to be prescriptive, or to make assumptions about charismaticism.)
[ 03. June 2016, 17:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I have presided at the eucharist in such churches wearing ordinary street clothes.
Fr. Trendy
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I'm sorry, Sipech, but I feel uncomfortable with this thing about less liturgical churches 'making room for the Holy Spirit' - it suggests that God the Holy Spirit can only 'work' or 'move' without a 'script' as it were.
From what I can gather and from my reading of the NT, the Jewish synagogue service was fairly 'scripted' ... and when Jesus and the disciples observed the Passover and so on they would have been doing so in the context of a liturgical tradition ...
I agree with the point you make, though, about Anglican services looking 'alike' to non-Anglicans - in the same way that a Hillsongs or New Frontiers meeting might look the same to someone who isn't from a charismatic background.
However, if you went to a New Wine-ish Anglican service it'd be pretty obvious how it differed from, say, a MoTR Anglican parish or a spikey-Anglo-Catholic one.
On the other points, I agree with Baptist Trainfan and mr cheesy, for Evensong to be Evensong it has to be done in a particular way - otherwise it simply becomes 'evening prayer' or something more generic. Which would be fine, but it wouldn't be Evensong.
Context is everything.
While we're on the subject of Evensong, how about Compline? That has to be one of my favourite Anglican forms of service and yet it's as rare as hens' teeth.
As for clergy saying the offices and so on - I bet if you asked our local evangelical vicar whether he said the offices he'd look at you daft (as we used to say in South Wales) ...
He'd be aware of what the offices are, of course, but I'd be surprised if he's ever said one in his life ... unless under duress ...
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are several things that Evensong could potentially bring to, or emphasise, in charismatic worship.
One is that Evensong a very contemplative space. To me, this mirrors a certain something in Pentecostalism which is that even in the midst of loud singing, prayers and other people speaking in tongues, the individual is free, somehow, to engage in his or her own prayers and contemplations.
The other is the repetitive nature of Evensong. Following exactly the same format week after week liberates me from the yearning I've often had for something different and 'uplifting' in a (non-charismatic) church service. Such a yearning, I found, frequently led to disappointment in church worship. In charismatic churches where there's a certain weariness setting in due to everyone looking for the 'next big thing' it might provide a kind of antidote.
More generally, although the Protestant way is often to emphasise the importance of the sermon, sermons may be vacuous, jumbled, or just don't seem relevant to one's own spiritual needs. With Evensong, though, the sermons are often very short and focused on a single point without padding. This would presumably be transferable to the kinds of charismaticism where most learning occurs in small groups, meaning that the longish, rambling sermon isn't necessary.
Evensong in a charismatic context might simply provide an opportunity for calmer, low-key worship for members who don't gel completely with the livelier, more extrovert style of the morning service.
(As I said above, though, I'm not trying to be prescriptive, or to make assumptions about charismaticism.)
These are interesting observations and I'd share the sentiments to a certain extent ... however, given that you're describing a journey I've taken/am taken, it begs the question ... why bother with the charismatic at all? At least in the way it's traditionally understood within Pentecostalism and charismatic-dom?
You could argue that Pentecostalism is echoing something found in the older traditions - rather than the other way around - insofar that if there is space for reflection and for contemplation this is because there was already space for that in the wider and older tradition/s from which Pentecostalism derived and emanated in the first place.
So, what Evensong provides for you and what you are tapping into, has always been there ... it's just that you might not have appropriated it in the same way before.
I completely agree that forms of service like Evensong, Compline - or their equivalents in other more sacramental traditions such as Vespers in the Orthodox tradition or the various RC 'hours' and offices ... provide an antidote for the sense of let-down that one often gets after the rah-rah-rah of charismaticism.
There comes a point though - and I may have reached that - where one thinks, 'Well, it's such a good antidote, why bother with the up-and-down switch-back ride of charismaticism at all?'
I believe it's perfectly possible to remain 'charismatic' in the broader sense within a more sacramental or liturgical framework. It's simply a case of moving the locus and focus away from the apparently spontaneous and working it out in the more formal or 'set' pattern of things ...
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Our Parish Church does a late (8.40pm) Choral Compline by candlelight six times a year on Fridays. Poorly attended but special.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I love Compline, and that's another service we had in the mix, sung as plainsong, when someone who could was around to lead.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
A few further thoughts ...
Has anyone has experience of Evensong in a charismatic Anglo-Catholic context?
If so, does it differ in any way from how Evensong is conducted elsewhere?
Also, the charismatic and the contemplative are not necessarily at variance - as the history and development of the Quakers indicates. Yet many/most conservative charismatics would have issues with contemporary Quakerism, particularly herein the UK,I suspect.
On the issue of more contemplative or reflective styles of service within the charismatic constituency more widely - I get the impression that these are not entirely unknown these days.
There is a more reflective end of the charismatic spectrum, particularly, I would say, among some of the Vineyard people and among charismatic Baptists and Anglicans. The extent to which this mirrors or echoes traditional Anglican or other 'historic church' practices will vary according to setting and context.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
I can't answer your question I'm afraid - but it's an intriguing one!
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
To me, a charismatic evensong would have to perform the same processes as the traditional monastic offices, from which evensong was developed, within and for those who live within the charismatic tent. They constitute the respiration of the church - they are the means by which it breathes, it gathers its energy, and by which it brings its oldest prayers, celebrations and lamentations, the psalms, to life.
What would a Charismatic put in that place? Would such a gathering be closer to a Quaker meeting - a time set aside each week to see what arrives from the holy spirit, with no expectation of other liturgical or quasi-liturgical actions? A time to remember how to wait on the Spirit, which seems to me to be the heart of the charismatic...erm....charism?
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
Many anglo-catholics and MOTR clergy used the modern RC offices in preference to the BCP, when saying them privately. Some still do, though since the advent of Common Worship I suspect fewer of them. But celebrating them publicly is a different matter, and one of the markers of a traditional Anglo-catholic parish is, on Sunday evenings, sung Evensong from the BCP followed by Benediction. That is the case even in those churches which use the Roman rite for mass.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
Not all of them, at least not as I understood what I was seeing/taking part in.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
Gamaliel, I suppose the point is that, for those to whom it feels native, evensong precisely makes space for the holy spirit by being this process of respiration I'm talking about. If it is suffocating, it can't also be a process of respiration.
The question is what provides that same supra-personal, supra-occasional process of respiration that is provided by the offices, behind and around the more obviously liturgical occasions of which the eucharist/mass is the equivalent.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
Gam, I think if one was a Charismatic Anglican, you may well not be familiar with any of any of the liturgy of the prayerbooks - BCP, ASB or CW.
I think it must vary, but the majority of the services at the charismatic Anglican church of my teenage years, most (but not all) of the services were directly from the ASB. Some used none of the official liturgy.
Other charismatic Anglican churches I know project bits of the liturgy onto a screen, but I don't know that the majority of the (mostly young) congregation would know where in the prayerbook to find them. If you were to ask them about Morning Worship, Evening Worship (never mind Compline), I'd be willing to bet that they wouldn't be able to tell you anything about it.
Other churches I've attended (which I'm going to describe as low, but maybe that's not correct based on what Angloid has said above) have a printed card they use for the regular responses (which doesn't specify what the service is). Even when I physically held the ASB, I usually only used the same pages of it, so I might have been aware that other services existed but never used them.
I think it is very likely that someone whose only exposure to Anglicanism is via New Wine style charismatic Anglican services would feel totally at sea in any kind of structured Anglican service, at a Cathedral at another Anglican church outside of their tradition, etc.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Gamaliel, I suppose the point is that, for those to whom it feels native, evensong precisely makes space for the holy spirit by being this process of respiration I'm talking about. If it is suffocating, it can't also be a process of respiration.
I think all churches are actually liturgical, it is just that some are more structured than others. I think it is the nature of religion to be expressed as a form of liturgy.
But the problem with what you've outlined above is that you are implying that everyone - all Anglicans - do the same thing. They don't. Some clearly think that they do not need to regularly use the written liturgy.
Their "breathing" may indeed take the form of a regular pattern of prayer, but this has very little to do with the written liturgy that the Anglican structure expects them to use. I think we're kidding ourselves if we really think everyone is on the same page on this.
And I'm not even sure that it is true that the majority of Anglican churches have held Evensong services for a very long time. Those who follow the Evening Prayer pattern on Sunday may not be using all of it - and so on.
They days of all parishes having choirs and a choral tradition are long gone.
quote:
The question is what provides that same supra-personal, supra-occasional process of respiration that is provided by the offices, behind and around the more obviously liturgical occasions of which the eucharist/mass is the equivalent.
I think it depends on exactly who it is that we're talking about - there is a massive diversity within the Anglican umbrella, never mind outside.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
Mr Cheesy, I wasn't intending to imply anything else, so I should have been clearer.
What I was meaning to say was that to work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of. I wasn't meaning to say it was universal outside certain specific groups; I know from my own experience that this is far from being the case. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
I think my point, insofar as I have one, is that the particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Mr Cheesy, I wasn't intending to imply anything else, so I should have been clearer.
What I was meaning to say was that to work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of. I wasn't meaning to say it was universal outside certain specific groups; I know from my own experience that this is far from being the case. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
Oh sorry I must have totally misunderstood your meaning. I agree with the above.
quote:
I think my point, insofar as I have one, is that the particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.
Mmm. I'm not even totally convinced that all Anglican churches (or Anglicans) share the same understanding of the Eucharist. But I'm not totally sure that differences necessarily follow the other dividing lines in the church.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
Wheh a studrnt, I occasionally went to St. Matthias Burley, in a working class part of Leeds. Its Sunday Evening Prayer was straight BCP. It was on Thursdays, at their prayer meetings, that we got tongues.
I also flirted with anglo-catholic charismatic renewal but our group always used the RC Evening Prayer.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
That's a huge generalisation. Lots of UK Anglo-Catholics do Evensong.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Anglo-catholics in the UK would be unlikely to do Evensong, seeing it as the vanguard of the C of E's bastardisation of the Catholic heritage it received. UK Anglo-Catholics do RC Evening Prayer, i.e. vespers.
That's a huge generalisation. Lots of UK Anglo-Catholics do Evensong.
Sounds as if more do than I thought. The ones I've been part of and know don't, but they sound atypical.
For my part, I'm very happy about that, because I'm a great lover of evensong, but I'd never have called myself a fully paid up A-C, and less so now than at some stages.
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Wheh a studrnt, I occasionally went to St. Matthias Burley, in a working class part of Leeds...
Last time I was there, on a Low Sunday many years ago, smebody got up and announced that they'd had a "word" and, to help recommitment to faith and vangelism, the following Tuesday would see the start of a 40 day fast.......
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
That's interesting - I looked at their website and found that they were doing Lent for the first time last years but that they'd regularly fasted.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Although I think it would be unusual to call it Evensong unless there was actually singing. Without singing it would just be Evening Prayer.
I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I attended St Matthias Burley for a while in 1981. The morning service was a well orchestrated traditional eucharist. The evening services were more charismatic with a singing in tongues bit in the middle.
At the time, I found this more convincing than the AoG Pentecostalism I'd encountered in South Wales - 'angara-bangera-sundera-hondera' - particularly as the participants were better educated and more middle class. St Mathias might have been in a working class area but it tended to attract middle-class charismatic blow-ins.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"
Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."
But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's interesting - I looked at their website and found that they were doing Lent for the first time last years but that they'd regularly fasted.
Yes, the Protestant/Puritan form of fasting which marks a season of repentance and renewal in the congregation's life. Normally it is not forty days. Based on the fasting/grieving Isreal went through when they returned to the Lord.
Protestant/Puritan food practices are not what people think they are.
Jengie
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."
Well not really. Cramner's concept of Evensong was a bastardisation of other traditions and was certainly intended to be celebrated in a musical context, just as the liturgy of the monastic hours are/were sung.
Hundreds of years later we're now using the term in slightly different ways - some using it to mean Evening Prayer, some specifically to mean a choral Anglican evening service.
To my mind, the latter is clearly what was intended. We have various other words for spoken evening services (such as Compline mentioned above), so to my mind it is a rather silly fashion to use Evensong for a spoken liturgical service.
Clearly, though, mileage varies.
quote:
But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.
I think that's rubbish.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
:
I have attended Compline with music.
Evensong itself is an attempt to merge two services, Vespers and Compline, into one. The merge was a little messy, hence the Lords Prayer being said twice.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
To work out what a charismatic evensong might look like it is necessary first to work out what evensong is doing for and in those parishes and people whose lives it is part of.
[...]
The particular charism of evensong is its working into the fabric of things, rather than its gathering force; the latter, to me, is one of the charisms of the eucharist. Evensong happens, and where it happens, it forms part of the pulse. People come to recharge that pulse,and to be recharged by it. I agree it has some liturgical features, but not to my mind the same ones or in the same way as the eucharist.
Thanks for this post.
For me as a non-Anglican, the significance of Evensong is probably very different from how it fits into the CofE world.
I was thinking that 'charismatic Evensong' might enable charismatic churches to expand what they do and broaden their appeal, but since Evensong doesn't exist to 'appeal' to anyone as such that idea probably doesn't make a lot of sense to people who are on the inside.
(Indeed, the pragmatic and evangelistic side of some charismatic/evangelical congregations might see the low attendances at Evensong as a sign of its lack of 'appeal'.)
If you're saying that Evensong is about providing a balance to the Eucharist, then those charismatics who place less emphasis on the Eucharist won't need it for that purpose.
And maybe CofE fans of Evensong are likely to be fans of traditional forms of (CofE) worship in general, rather than people who want to encourage cross-breeding in terms of ideas and worship styles? (OTOH, though, the CofE is so broad that hybridisation is inevitable, to judge from what I'm reading here...)
Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?
I don't know that it is specifically good for "ecumenicalism" - as one would have to be a fan of the choral settings to appreciate it - but there are other denominations who regularly use it. For example the Kirk in Glsagow Cathedral (IIRC) has a weekly Evensong, and I've read about various other denominations which use it.
Interestingly (again, IIRC) the CoS doesn't have as regular communion as might happen in the Anglican church - and I think they have a second communion service after Evensong when they do.
I guess that is one aspect of Evensong which might make it more widely of interest in that it is not a Eucharistic service.
I suppose that also might avoid potential issues with Ecumenical relations with other churches, maybe that's what you are implying.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Our United Service for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity this year was a full High Church Choral Evensong with Benediction, complete with incense.
Next year it will be a Methodist service. We agreed that we would not go for the "lowest common denominator" approach but learn to appreciate other traditions. Mind you, many of us were flummoxed by the Benediction, despite an explanation.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that's rubbish.
I think that's rude of you.
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I have been to a Choral Evensong in a NZ city cathedral where "the first words of the service" were: "The choir is on school holidays, the Bishop and the Dean are at a conference in Sydney so tonight's service will be 'Said Evensong'"
Makes perfect sense, as has been noted on the previous page, "Evensong" being simply an old word for "Evening Prayer." You can have Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, or you can have Mat(t)ins and Evensong. Same things. Whether they're sung or not is another matter. So "Choral Evensong" isn't redundant, and neither is "Sung Evensong."
But this may be a losing battle, as it may end up just being easier to say it's Evening Prayer when said and Evensong when sung. Sad, though, as it would mean it's been decided the traditional usage isn't worth teaching and learning anymore.
You are absolutely right. Only recently has there been a tendency to use Evening Prayer to denote said and Evensong as sung. Right up to the late 1960s my parish had daily evensong which was said. Look at parish magazines across the Anglican spectrum and it was the same.
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Are other denominations ever invited to take part in Evensong, or is it not considered to be a suitable service for ecumenicalism?
I don't know that it is specifically good for "ecumenicalism" - as one would have to be a fan of the choral settings to appreciate it - but there are other denominations who regularly use it. For example the Kirk in Glsagow Cathedral (IIRC) has a weekly Evensong, and I've read about various other denominations which use it.
Interestingly (again, IIRC) the CoS doesn't have as regular communion as might happen in the Anglican church - and I think they have a second communion service after Evensong when they do.
I guess that is one aspect of Evensong which might make it more widely of interest in that it is not a Eucharistic service.
I suppose that also might avoid potential issues with Ecumenical relations with other churches, maybe that's what you are implying.
I know two Lutheran churches in Berlin that have choral evensong (or a variation of it) One is a rather magical service called Noonsong on Saturdays which attracts a crowd ten times larger than the regular Sunday Gottesdienst.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I think the issue here isn't so much about charismatic churches - Anglican or otherwise - adopting Evensong specifically, as adopting more contemplative or 'quieter' styles more generally.
FWIW I think this is already taking place in some Alt.worship and 'Emerging Church' settings - although not necessarily in a parallel format to traditional Anglican evensong.
I can't imagine our local evangelical charismatic vicar entertaining evensong in any way, shape or form.
He once complained to me about how the 1662 service has the intonation of 'And make Thy chosen people joyful' in what he took to be a mournful and unjoyful way. I laughed and told him not to be so literal.
He didn't like that.
Thing is, as a son of the manse, he has a complete and utter antipathy to anything approaching traditional Anglican styles - which he sees as not being conducive to a 'move of the Spirit.'
He once told me that he felt at his most 'New Testament' during a visit with his dad to the Toronto Vineyard Fellowship in 1994. When I challenged him to show me anywhere in the NT where 'Toronto' style manifestations are clearly in evidence he simply shrugged and closed the conversation down.
So, I think it's a big ask for some charismatics to adopt a more contemplative or reflective approach - or a more liturgical one such as found in Compline or Evensong etc.
It certainly does happen with those who've been through the charismatic thing and come out the other side or who weigh charismaticism in the balance and find it wanting ...
But then, I'm also convinced there's a personality thing going on here. Some people 'get' Evensong. Others don't. Some people 'get' Benediction, others struggle with it - I know I do ...
Conversely, some people 'get' the repetitive singing of worship songs and choruses or the kind of things that go on in Hillsongs, New Frontiers or other forms of full-on charismatic expression - whilst it leaves others completely cold.
I've done both so I can see both sides of this one.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the issue here isn't so much about charismatic churches - Anglican or otherwise - adopting Evensong specifically, as adopting more contemplative or 'quieter' styles more generally.
FWIW I think this is already taking place in some Alt.worship and 'Emerging Church' settings - although not necessarily in a parallel format to traditional Anglican evensong.
Yes, this does make more sense.
AFAIK it's not even as if the leadership of the CofE particularly promotes Evensong as a 'good thing', so why would the people in CofE pews be expected to want it, if it's not already a part of their local church's heritage? There's no proof that it would meet with much demand in churches where it doesn't exist.
Moreover, while there might be some interest in calm, meditative worship styles, 'Evensong' as a label probably wouldn't be meaningful to the majority of people who might have such an interest. It might even put them off.
From the Methodist point of view, a service that regularly attracted so few worshippers (plus the choristers, who may or may not be 'worshipping') in so big a space would soon cease to to be held. Even within the CofE many churches have other priorities, quite reasonably, and it doesn't seem as if anything looking much like Sung Evensong could or would be done on the cheap.
[ 05. June 2016, 21:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
From the Methodist point of view, a service that regularly attracted so few worshippers (plus the choristers, who may or may not be 'worshipping') in so big a space would soon cease to to be held. Even within the CofE many churches have other priorities, quite reasonably, and it doesn't seem as if anything looking much like Sung Evensong could or would be done on the cheap.
I made this point here a year or two back after attending Evensong in our Parish Church, where the congregation consisted of 4 people, including the (paid) sidesman, the Vicar's mother visiting for the weekend and myself. (This is in a church which has already had 8 am Morning Prayer, 9.30 am Choral Mattins and 10.30 am Parish Eucharist, by the way).
I can't find the thread now - but the strong consensus was "that's what we Anglicans do" and even "it doesn't matter if no-one comes because the regular worship is being offered and God recognises that" (I paraphrase, you understand). I'm afraid that was a very alien view to me, as a Nonconformist. (The service was lovely, by the way).
[ 06. June 2016, 07:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I made this point here a year or two back after attending Evensong in our Parish Church, where the congregation consisted of 4 people, including the (paid) sidesman, the Vicar's mother visiting for the weekend and myself. (This is in a church which has already had 8 am Morning Prayer, 9.30 am Choral Mattins and 10.30 am Parish Eucharist, by the way).
Are you saying that there was a choir, the vicar, the vicar's mother, the sidesman, you and one other person? Or do you mean that the four of you and the vicar were a congregation singing the liturgy?
If the former, I guess it could be argued to be good practice for the choir.
quote:
I can't find the thread now - but the strong consensus was "that's what we Anglicans do" and even "it doesn't matter if no-one comes because the regular worship is being offered and God recognises that" (I paraphrase, you understand). I'm afraid that was a very alien view to me, as a Nonconformist. (The service was lovely, by the way).
I don't understand - you're saying that Baptists wouldn't hold regular services for four people because it wasn't "worth it"? I know personally of some churches which have been kept going for years with very small congregations, subsequently to grow rapidly.
Of course, many others dwindle and close.
But I don't understand why you don't understand the notion of keeping going in prayer even if nobody else seems to notice.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
There were four of us plus the choir and Vicar. We made the said responses and sung the hymns, the choir sang the Office.
As far as Baptist churches go:
1. Yes, there are chapels in small villages which rightly continue with very small numbers. But I can't see a church which already has three services on a Sunday having another one which does not appear to be "wanted" by its members or the outside world. They'd scratch their heads and talk and pray to see if they could do something different, or change the time, or suchlike.
2. Baptist churches are, by and large, completely self-supporting. Few have endowments to - say - keep a choral tradition going. At the very least they would think twice about the costs of lighting and heating a large building for such a small congregation, quite apart from any other costs involved. As it happens, we have a small Evening Service (as well as our morning one), but it takes place in a small room rather than the main church.
3. Of course we have things like prayer meetings etc. But these are distinct from the "public services of worship". We'd be happy to have a prayer group with just a few people (although we'd hold it in a small room on church premises or in someone's home). But we'd question offering a regular Worship Service for such a small number, if we were also offering other opportunities on a Sunday. Indeed, we would tend to regard singing Evensong with no congregation as a rather pointless exercise - although I accept that the musicians may themselves be worshipping.
[ 06. June 2016, 09:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
Hahaha, this might be one of the reasons I'm not a Baptist. Wrong economics.
I'd suggest most of the costs you're ascribing here are fixed. So if you have already heated the building on a Sunday and have already paid for a day of the sidesperson's time and already have the choir for the more popular services, you may as well have Evensong - providing at least the choir is keen to have it continue.
I don't know about your church, and it is a long time since I've regularly attended a Baptist/Evangelical church, but in general the pattern is of two services on a Sunday and a midweek prayer meeting. The rest of the time the building (or, if there is an office in the building, the Sanctuary) is unused.
OK, yes the heating may not be on, but all the other costs of keeping a large building are fixed.
To me it makes much more sense to have as many services as humanly possible, even if some of them have very few participants, in as many different styles and tempos as can be accommodated.
Fair enough if there are limited staff or others prepared to lead, but not having small services because of the - relatively small - variable costs involved seems ridiculous to me.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
I think there's a lot in what Baptist Trainfan says, however, in the instance he cites it would appear that Evensong was part of the expected pattern - even if few people attended such a service.
Which seems to me a different thing to what SvitlanaV2 is describing ie. some kind of appetite to 'extend' the practice of Evensong to parishes or communities which don't already have it as part of their spiritual DNA or tradition.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any instances of a dean, archdeacon or what have you rolling up somewhere and saying, 'Hmmm ... the parishes hereabouts don't have an Evensong tradition. We must address that at once and coerce them to do so ...'
As someone who has worshipped in both non-conformist settings and Anglican ones - as well as 'new church' ones - I can understand the 'non-conformist' mindset which both SvitlanaV2 and Baptist Trainfan 'demonstrate' (if I can put it that way) from their Methodist and Baptist perspectives respectively.
I'm not unsympathetic to either.
There are things that go on in the CofE that don't make any practical sense whatsoever.
But - for all the pragmatic arguments against such a thing - I can quite understand the mindset of someone who might want to continue with a particular practice because they see it as part and parcel of their Anglican (or whatever else) identity.
That doesn't make it right, wrong, good bad or indifferent ...
Some of these things only make sense from the 'inside' as it were.
I once asked an Orthodox priest why they still have the 'doors' thing in the Liturgy when the doors aren't closed any more nor are catchechumens shoo-ed out and asked to depart. 'Depart ye catechumens ... let all catechumens depart ... let no catechumens remain ...' etc etc - and you look around and no one departs, no one shuts and bolts the doors, no-one passes Go and collects their Ł200 ...
His answer was that it's there in case it's ever needed again in future, in the same way as most of us store lumber in our attics ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It made sense to him, but no sense to anyone who doesn't share the same mindset.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
We have found that Choral Evensong is one of our most popular services and there are people who will attend even when it is winter and the rain is falling. I am sure the congregation would be most perturbed if we tampered with the format, and can't understand why people would want to and still call it Evensong. Just have a different service and call it something else. My experience has been that if you mess with what people know and love they will drop out and it doesn't necessarily draw new people.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy. It was a practice introduced pre-reformation to the Spanish church by Cardinal Quiñones - to whom Cranmer owed much in the formulation of the first BCP. It being an amalgamation of vespers and compline. It hasn't persisted there so far as I know.
And of course it continues in some RC ordinariate parishes.
[ 11. June 2016, 12:01: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We have found that Choral Evensong is one of our most popular services and there are people who will attend even when it is winter and the rain is falling. I am sure the congregation would be most perturbed if we tampered with the format, and can't understand why people would want to and still call it Evensong. Just have a different service and call it something else. My experience has been that if you mess with what people know and love they will drop out and it doesn't necessarily draw new people.
I wasn't suggesting that someone should mess around with a service that's known and loved in a particular setting. My thinking was rather that it could be taken on and customised for different people in a different setting. But I've already accepted that this is unlikely to happen as I imagined it.
On a positive note, it's wonderful that Evensong is so popular where you are. That's a rare thing over here.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy. It was a practice introduced pre-reformation to the Spanish church by Cardinal Quiñones - to whom Cranmer owed much in the formulation of the first BCP. It being an amalgamation of vespers and compline. It hasn't persisted there so far as I know.
And of course it continues in some RC ordinariate parishes.
Fascinating - I had no idea and neither, I suspect, do many of those who hold such views this side of the pond.
On the Ordinariate point, again there may be pond differences - I would have to check, but I suspect there might.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy.
I may have missed something but whoever said it was? It is the BCP equivalent to Vespers, with material from Compline.
Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Just on a point of information, Evensong is not a bastardisation of RC liturgy.
I may have missed something but whoever said it was? It is the BCP equivalent to Vespers, with material from Compline.
Thunderbunk did.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
FWIW, I think it was Mr Cheesy.
We do a Choral Evensong one Sunday a month, with Evening Prayer said every weekday. The Evensong draws some from nearby Uniting and Catholic churches (as does a Taizé service said on a Sunday a month). A change made a couple of years ago to the usual format is that the congregation chants some responses with the choir - a very popular move, it gets the congregation more involved.
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0