Thread: What price Latin? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
Are there liberal Catholics (or even schismatics) who use the Latin liturgy? All my experiences with extraordinary rite folks so far have been off-putting .
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.

[ 22. June 2016, 16:29: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
hosting/

Tibi Omnes, welcome to the Ship. I'm moving this thread to Ecclesiantics, our board to discuss liturgy and worship practices. You'll be able to carry on there.

/hosting
 
Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.
Dear Stetson, this was indeed the sort of group I hoped existed.They seem to have an outpost in NYC, which I will explore.

If your avatar is a Klee detail, as it appears, my compliments.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tibi Omnes:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Somewhere in this wiki article, it states that the Old Catholics(who I believe split off in protest against Infallibility) use the Tridentine Mass. Not sure how you go about finding a parish, I never enountered any of them in twenty odd years of Catholic observance.
Dear Stetson, this was indeed the sort of group I hoped existed.They seem to have an outpost in NYC, which I will explore.

If your avatar is a Klee detail, as it appears, my compliments.
Thanks for the comps on the avatar! Yes, Park Near L(ucerne), my favorite Klee. Kudos to the Ship for offering it in their gallery.

I can't make any hard claims about the liberalism of the Old Catholics, though wiki seems to indicate that they're more open-minded about certain social issues(eg. abortion) than the official RCC. And I seem to recall that Sinead O'Connor had some involvement with them, but I can't recall the details.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And I seem to recall that Sinead O'Connor had some involvement with them, but I can't recall the details.
According to this article from 2012 she was ordained by something called the Irish Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :
 
The Anglicans are in communion with the Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) church. Other churches are available which use "Old" and "Catholic" in the title who are in communion with neither Rome or Utrecht.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Near me there's a church run by the Society of Pius X. They seem to be into Latin... My experience of 'O' level means I have not, thus far, attended - I'm quite sure the phrases I remember 'Da aquam gallina...mensa (voc) - oh table!' - do not appear in OT or NT.

(is 'gallina' the dative plural of a feminine noun for 'hen'? I remember more grammar than I do vocabulary...).
 
Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
It does seem that if I want to hear Tridentine Latin live, I'll have the company of people who consider me (and most of the world) most decidedly damned. Latin is one of those good things people tend to want for bad reasons.

There are also, one should note, many bad things people want for good reasons.

Makes one wonder about the moral weight of intent.

[ 22. June 2016, 18:59: Message edited by: Tibi Omnes ]
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Da aquam gallina...(is 'gallina' the dative plural of a feminine noun for 'hen'?
Gallinis, dear.

There are two churches in the Phoenix area, one Roman Catholic and the other sede vacante Catholic (although they claim to be Roman Catholic -- perhaps they've reconciled), that use the Tridentine mass in Latin. See here and here.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
Gallinis, dear.
Would you...decline it for me? [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
This was my dilemma in my pre-Thames days. I belonged to Una Voce, at whose liturgies I had to tune out the homily, and Dignity, where I had to grit my teeth at everything else! I squared it by going Anglican: YMMV.

This is the church where I was confirmed. It uses the 1962 missal exclusively but ordains women and marries same-gender couples.

Thomas Day would seem to imply that the correlation between liturgical traditionalism and reactionary politics that you find in the SSPX (particularly in Europe) is itself a post-conciliar phenomenon:

quote:
Modern Catholics have sometimes forgotten that, as late as 1964, the "fun" High Mass with good choral music and maybe some congregational singing was considered "liberal" and "progressive." "Liberal Catholics" loved chant and lamented that they never heard it done properly or done at all in their parishes. "Liberal Catholics" were somewhat High Church in their preferences. A great example of this "High Church liberalism" was Father George Barry Ford, the controversial pastor of Corpus Christi Church in Manhattan ... Father Ford constantly infuriated his superiors down in the "powerhouse" behind St. Patrick's (then the location of the diocesan chancery) because of his liberal notions on ecumenism and his open exchange of ideas with the atheists at nearby Columbia University. It was considered only natural that someone with his dangerously liberal leanings would be in charge of the only parish for miles around which treated the church's liturgical heritage as if it were "serious fun." The bedrock, faith-of-our-fathers conservatives in the archdiocese did not know what was worse about this radical Father Ford: his too-friendly relations with Protestant ministers, university professors, and other dangerous types or his church, where the choir energetically sang Masses by Mozart and where the congregation sang. . . Gregorian chant!


[ 22. June 2016, 20:32: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
The Anglican church in Prague is (or was) classed under Czech law as the English-speaking parish of the Old Catholic Church in the Czech Republic.
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Welcome, TO. [Smile] And salve, amicus Latinus. ("Hail, Latin friend"--though my Latin is very rusty.)

--It used to be that some regular RC churches had maybe one Latin mass a month. Maybe you could check with your local (arch)diocese?

-- Maybe the next best thing would be a video? And when I was setting up that search, there was an option for "Tridentine mass locations".

--Are you familiar with Taize prayer services? It wouldn't be a mass, but some of their songs are in Latin.

Bona fortuna (good luck).
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
Also, in the interests of liturgical obscurity, it's worth observing there's such a thing as the Latin Book of Common Prayer, intended for use in (inter alia) Oxbridge chapels where Latin would, naturally, be 'understanded of the people'.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
I suppose it makes a difference whether TO is looking specifically for the "extraordinary form" or is attached to the Latin language in general (whether the EF, the Missal of Paul VI, or any of the various Latin BCPs).

As for the Union of Utrecht, they did indeed used to do this sort of thing - basically a vernacular Tridentine liturgy (not unlike how a few Anglican parishes use the English Missal). Despite their independence from Rome, however, my understanding is that they did partake in the ecumenical Liturgical Movement of the late 20th century and have become "Novus Ordo-ized" if you will. As noted above, the Anglo-American branch of Old Catholicism split from the Union and is not in communion with it or Canterbury (or even in some cases with each other). In North America, these bodies can run the full theological and liturgical spectrum, from sedevacantist to Gnostic.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
You're not really hearing Latin even then. You're usually hearing a bastardised Latin spoken as if it were Italian, which it ain't.

It's a bit like thinking you're hearing Old English if someone started Beowulf with "Wait! We Gar-deena in geer daygum theeod signinger thrim gefroonon" - in Cockney.

/Language geek
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're not really hearing Latin even then. You're usually hearing a bastardised Latin spoken as if it were Italian, which it ain't.

It's a bit like thinking you're hearing Old English if someone started Beowulf with "Wait! We Gar-deena in geer daygum theeod signinger thrim gefroonon" - in Cockney.

/Language geek
As a contra-geek, this has the stellar advantage of Latin being used as a live language. As such, different pronunciations are quite legitimate-- do we not accept even Queensland and Donegal English, let alone the incomprehensible argot of the Estuary?

An acquaintance of mine who has participated in Latin camp tells me that both Ciceronian and ecclesiastical are used by young Latinophones. She feels that Ciceronian is best for the classroom but ecclesiastical when hanging out with one's homies. She tells me that her two Jewish Latinophone friends (intense young wannabee archaeologists from NYC) use ecclesiastical among themselves, but fears that this is not a statistically valid sample (even assuming any statistically valid conclusion can be drawn from the perhaps 2000 Latin-speakers in the US-- she thinks that there are only 300 or so in Canada). She has a delightful tale of a furious teenager lecturing her ex-boyfriend in scathing Latin.

And, as any child can tell you, today's
news broadcast can give you a good picture of Latin as she is spoke.

I have no problem with Latin in services as long as it is "understood of the congregation" and helps people. Certain texts are frequently set in music where the Latin works best. However, I do not ever see it being more than perhaps one or two churches in a diocese with a university or two being able to use it without it being a potentially ludicrous curiosity.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
 
Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
I had a brief fling with Italianate pronunciation, which I do like the sound of, but when you read enough Latin names transliterated into Greek, as often one does in the NT, the correction is hard to ignore. Caesar with a kappa &c.

Going to mass is as troublesome as going to the opera, and in almost the same ways.Will ancient characters be presented in business suits or combat fatigues? Will the audience fidget and cough through the best bits?

I often wonder why I didn't stay home with a Berlioz Te Deum and coffee I can drink.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
On the other hand, back when I was getting my music degree, it was always the people who had studied classical Latin who had the hardest time with ecclesiastical Latin, which is what's used in (most) musical contexts.

Then there was German ecclesiastical Latin, where kyrie is pronounced KÜ-ree-eh.

[ 23. June 2016, 14:27: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Then there was German ecclesiastical Latin, where kyrie is pronounced KÜ-ree-eh.
Which is the correct way to pronounce it - because it's Greek. Like 'psuche rather than psyche.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I was greatly teased for my ecclesiastical accent in my freshman Latin class.
On the other hand, back when I was getting my music degree, it was always the people who had studied classical Latin who had the hardest time with ecclesiastical Latin. . . . Then there was German ecclesiastical Latin. . . .
I received my BA from (what was then) a Catholic college, where Latin was taught with the church pronunciation. But I received my MA from a secular university, where of course we used classical pronunciation.

I taught Latin first in a Catholic high school (church) and then in the public schools (classical). I've sung the Mozart Requiem under a conductor who favored church, and then under another conductor who favored Germanic.

Now that in retirement I've been studying Spanish, I tend to speak Latin with a mixture of church and Hispanic pronunciation.

Confused? Hey! [Ultra confused]

Truth is, we really don't know how the average Roman on the street pronounced the language, let alone how Cicero pronounced it in the Senate or Plautus had his actors pronounce it on the stage.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Also, in the interests of liturgical obscurity, it's worth observing there's such a thing as the Latin Book of Common Prayer, intended for use in (inter alia) Oxbridge chapels where Latin would, naturally, be 'understanded of the people'.
To tangent to the more practical side of the thread, this text might be useful for those classicists who say their offices daily. I've been through both Matins and Vespers, and they're fairly easy to follow. As well, some of the collects work pretty clearly into Latin-- certainly, many of them were taken from Latin work.
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
I suspect that the methods used in the approaches to OP in Shakespeare would work for Latin at least for specified historical dates.

I have seen this approach applied to the hymns of Wesley.

Jengie
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
This was my dilemma in my pre-Thames days. I belonged to Una Voce, at whose liturgies I had to tune out the homily, and Dignity, where I had to grit my teeth at everything else! I squared it by going Anglican: YMMV.

This is the church where I was confirmed. It uses the 1962 missal exclusively but ordains women and marries same-gender couples.

Thomas Day would seem to imply that the correlation between liturgical traditionalism and reactionary politics that you find in the SSPX (particularly in Europe) is itself a post-conciliar phenomenon:

quote:
Modern Catholics have sometimes forgotten that, as late as 1964, the "fun" High Mass with good choral music and maybe some congregational singing was considered "liberal" and "progressive." "Liberal Catholics" loved chant and lamented that they never heard it done properly or done at all in their parishes. "Liberal Catholics" were somewhat High Church in their preferences. A great example of this "High Church liberalism" was Father George Barry Ford, the controversial pastor of Corpus Christi Church in Manhattan ... Father Ford constantly infuriated his superiors down in the "powerhouse" behind St. Patrick's (then the location of the diocesan chancery) because of his liberal notions on ecumenism and his open exchange of ideas with the atheists at nearby Columbia University. It was considered only natural that someone with his dangerously liberal leanings would be in charge of the only parish for miles around which treated the church's liturgical heritage as if it were "serious fun." The bedrock, faith-of-our-fathers conservatives in the archdiocese did not know what was worse about this radical Father Ford: his too-friendly relations with Protestant ministers, university professors, and other dangerous types or his church, where the choir energetically sang Masses by Mozart and where the congregation sang. . . Gregorian chant!
Father Ford was the priest who welcomed Thomas Merton into the Catholic Church. He was clearly a powerful influence.
 
Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
For someone like myself, who had rather perform devotions alone than be beset by doggerel hymns, or fellow believers who think the Girl Scouts have a pernicious liberal agenda, praying in the original languages is, I find, key. When I read Ambrose or Jerome in Latin, it's as though I hear their voices. They seem present. Though the NT in Greek absolutely flashes and crackles, Jerome's Latin has a King James fullness and Resonance about it. If I were confined to English, I'd use the un-modernized 1611 KJV and the marvellous old Anglican liturgy.

For people in the modern world, many of our most profound and and spiritual experiences come from reading. I don't think this means we fall short of the spirituality of previous generations: ours is just different. A literary experience may be merely aesthetic, but in need not be only that.

Tolle, lege! Augustine was in this as in much else far far ahead of his time.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Certainly many European countries had their own pronunciation of ecclesiastical Latin. The pronunciation of 'kyrie' in the Greek fashion is typically Germanic, but so also ,and this is typical also in Slavic countries is the 'g' pronounced always a 'g' in 'girl' (gratias agamus and gratias agimus have the same 'g' sound) and 'c' is pronounced as English 'ts'.
In the 'cheat card' for altar servers in Austrian churches pre Vatican 2 'coeli et terra' would have been written as 'zaeli et terra' (In German 'z' is pronounced as 'ts'.)

One of the peculiarities of Spanish pronunciation
which Pope Francis still uses (and there are others) is to pronounce the 'qu' of requiem like 'k'.If you listen to the weekly Angelus you will notice this every week when he says Requiem aeternam dona eis,Domine.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
Well, quite. Once at a parish coffee hour, an Austrian gentleman told me a story about visiting an abbey there: the monks answered the door with "Benedicite" pronounced in the German-Latin fashion. And of course in that video of the SSPX church in Paris that makes the rounds online, the celebrant employs a distinctly French pronunciation of Latin. (The Acadian priest from whom I learned to serve the TLM used a more conventional Italianate accent, and that's what I picked up).

One of the francophone priests at my current parish does pronounce Kyrie as Nick Tamen and leo describe.

[ 30. June 2016, 16:01: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about American Old Catholics, but Dutch and German ones are in full communion with the Church of England. Their liturgy was based on the Tridentine Mass (though usually in the vernacular); I rather think that they have updated their liturgies somewhat in recent years.
The Anglican church in Prague is (or was) classed under Czech law as the English-speaking parish of the Old Catholic Church in the Czech Republic.
Thanks - David Holeton used to be dean of my seminary until he left
rather unpleasantly. He now serves on the Anglican-Old Catholic International Commission - as a representative on the Old Catholic side. Now I understand why.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
As a general rule, in Europe until sometime about 1900, Latin was pronounced as if it were the normal language of the country of the speaker. In the UK, this was overtaken by the "new" way of pronouncing Latin, and in music some time later by church pronunciation.

The rule in English was that, very roughly, you pronounced a wrod as if it were in English. I recall Harold MacMillan conferring degrees at Oxford in 1970 using the pronunciation he's learned a school in the 1890s -- not at all like church or italian Latin. The phrase in question was "Ad-meye-to tee ad gray-dum", not "Ad-mit-to tay ad grah-dum".

Thus, the canticles at Morning Prayer included the Ven-eye-ty (not the wen-eet-ay), the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um) and the Ben-e-deye-si-tee (not the ben-edi-chi (or Ki)-tay).

If German and Spanish have retained their historic pronunciations, more power to them.

John
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um)
That explains why I once saw it listed as "The Tedium" in a service leaflet -- and believe me, the way the choir sang it, "tedium" was an understatement!
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... Thus, the canticles at Morning Prayer included the Ven-eye-ty (not the wen-eet-ay), the Tee Dee-um (not the Tay Day-um) and the Ben-e-deye-si-tee (not the ben-edi-chi (or Ki)-tay). ...
As far as I'm concerned, that is - or was until people stopped having BCP Morning Prayer all that often - how they are still pronounced. However they may be pronounced anywhere else, I'd still regard pronouncing them the way they are in the brackets as incredibly affected.


Incidentally, I understand similar arguments exist about how to pronounce Ancient Greek. There is also quite a pronounced opinion that how Greek was pronounced changed a lot between the classical era (e.g. 400 BC) and the time when the NT was written. After that, it is alleged, pronunciation changed more slowly.

I am fairly sure, that that in Greece now, this is ignored and all Greek of whatever period, is read as though it is ordinary modern Greek. Does any shipmate actually know?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
. . . law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) . . . .
Or bona fide
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However they may be pronounced anywhere else, I'd still regard pronouncing them the way they are in the brackets as incredibly affected.
When I learned Latin in school, which was considerably more recent than 1900, I learned "be-ne-di-ki-tay" and so on. So that's where I naturally start for nay kind of Latin.

Except that, rather ironically, I am unable to say anything other than "Sissero".
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
. . . law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) . . . .
Or bona fide
Or even basic subpoena, these days usually this one word.
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Or even basic subpoena, these days usually this one word. [/QB]
In Scotland, when it mattered, bona fide was also one word: on Sundays, to obtain alcoholic refreshment, one had to be "a bonafied [sic] traveller". Five miles or so established one's good faith, and need of recruitment.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
 
Posted by Tibi Omnes (# 18608) on :
 
As regards "authenticity," regards these consonantal fine points are put in the shade by Latin's being a quantitative language, so English and German speakers will butcher it however they say their V's and C's by giving one syllable a stress.

It is however very interesting and much fun to hear how differently everyone pronounces. I learned the academic style, and never feel my papers are not in order, except when confronted with certain place names, like Cilicia, which sound a bit off, even though I've seen it in Greek and know from the kappas that the hard C's are historically sound. Kill-icky-ya still sounds awful to me.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai. Sorry, don't know how to do do phonetic script on this keyboard, but that e is the indefinite one. The change from old to new pronunciation, still being talked about when I did Latin in senior school, was substantial. Like others, I'd still pronounce Cicero in English as sisserow.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I agree with Gee D.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The change that occurred around 1900 was not uniform. By and large, academia moved to the new pronunciation, law latin stayed with the old (how would you pronounce certiorari?) and the church hovered somewhere on its own.
I'd pronounce it Kehrteeohrahree.
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai. Sorry, don't know how to do do phonetic script on this keyboard, but that e is the indefinite one. The change from old to new pronunciation, still being talked about when I did Latin in senior school, was substantial. Like others, I'd still pronounce Cicero in English as sisserow.
I would if I was discussing him in History. If I were reading a piece of Latin that mentioned him, it would be Keekehro.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The pronunciation (at least here) is sursherairai.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with Gee D.
That's the standard pronunciation in the States, too.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I had the occasion yesterday to be snorting my espresso in the company of a minor justice of the provincial bench and asked him about Latin pronunciation in his court. He said he has encountered three schools; legal Latin, which is as spoken in rural Ontario (e.g., sertiorarry), then the occasional classicist (sub yudiké), and ecclesiastical, which is most common with francophone lawyers (chertori-arri). He really didn't care as long as they knew what they were talking about. He had done years as an altar boy and was schooled by brothers, then Jesuits, so really preferred the ecclesiastical pronunciation-- he regretted that he could no longer do an impromptu presentation in Latin, as he could in his younger days.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Since Italian directly evolved from Latin, ISTM that the most sensible (as well as euphonious) pronunciation is that closer to Italian. (Or I suppose to any other Romance language like Spanish or French, although the latter has evolved further). English 'school Latin' seems like an archaeological reconstruction, and old-style anglo pronunciation is just risible.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I'd say that some words - eg subpoena - have now ceased being Latin and in this format have become English. So the right plural is now subpoenas, not subpoenae. All this ignores the widespread abolition of the word from rules of court and the replacement with summons.
 
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I'd say that some words - eg subpoena - have now ceased being Latin and in this format have become English. So the right plural is now subpoenas, not subpoenae. All this ignores the widespread abolition of the word from rules of court and the replacement with summons.
Properly speaking, it would I think be "writs subpoena". It could never be "subpoenae", given that it is not a Latin word. (And, while "poena" is a Latin word, it is in fact ablative here and the plural would be "poenis".)
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Agree. My Latin's now over 50 yrs old and I should have checked.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Since Italian directly evolved from Latin, ISTM that the most sensible (as well as euphonious) pronunciation is that closer to Italian. (Or I suppose to any other Romance language like Spanish or French, although the latter has evolved further).
A linguist friend tells me that Spanish is perhaps the most conservative of Romance languages, to the extent that it could be considered "modern Latin."
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I believe one of the local languages of northern Sardinia is considered to have retained more Latin grammar than any other Romance language, so perhaps we should speak like Sardinians? I'm not sure there is any great advantage to doing so, but I'd be happy to go there for a few months for research purposes!
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
while "poena" is a Latin word, it is in fact ablative here and the plural would be "poenis".)
Pronounced ?? [Biased]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I believe one of the local languages of northern Sardinia is considered to have retained more Latin grammar than any other Romance language, so perhaps we should speak like Sardinians? I'm not sure there is any great advantage to doing so, but I'd be happy to go there for a few months for research purposes!
People live longer in Sardinia too!
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Whilst it is true that Spanish retains more words of Latin origin which are close to 'standard spoken' Latin,Spanish has many words of Arabic origin.
Italian has fewer words of Arabic origin (ragazzo /boy being one of them) but a good number of its words from Latin will come from 'slang' Latin.
caput /capitem is 'head' in Latin which becomes 'cabeza' in Spanish.Italian (and French) favour 'testa' meaning an 'earthenware jar' or a slang word for 'head'

The Latin of the Vulgate is standard spoken Latin
of its period. The works of the great Latin authors are in a highly polished form of Latin which would not have been easily 'understood of the people'
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Since Italian directly evolved from Latin, ISTM that the most sensible (as well as euphonious) pronunciation is that closer to Italian. (Or I suppose to any other Romance language like Spanish or French, although the latter has evolved further). English 'school Latin' seems like an archaeological reconstruction, and old-style anglo pronunciation is just risible.
It depends what Latin you want. The late Vulgar Latin of the last years of the Roman Empire had probably acquired many of the features of modern Romance languages; the loss of final -m (e.g. in Accusative singulars) and the loss of vowel length distinctions (such as between Nom. Sing and Abl. Sing in 1st Decl. nouns) causing the collapse of the case system. But fully inflected Classical Latin has a phonology distinct from this which can be reconstructed with reasonable confidence and which underlies the "new" Latin pronunciation (as in We kiss 'em for Vicissim, rather than Vie-sissim)
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Around the time of the most recent Canadian federal election, I was drinking some Dubonnet with the pushing-90 grandfather of a literary friend and was discussing the election with him. By way of making conversation and knowing his Conservative leanings, I asked him what he thought of the three party leaders: Trudeau's got the best Latin. I raised my eyebrows and his logic went thus-- Trudeau had been educated at Brébeuf (the toniest & most classical of Montréal's private schools- where students are still expected to compose in Latin) only a quarter century ago so he wouldn't have lost his Latin yet; Mulcair had done Latin, but it was further back and, to his sorrow, Harper had no Latin at all.

My polling acquaintances told me that they had no numbers on how important classical learning was in voters' decision-making. So I fear that they likely don't have figures on politicians' Latin pronunciation.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
Latin ceased to be taught at school and in time, Italian became a good substitute. But I have not forgotten all of my Latin and there are some 'Latinisms' that I know by heart. I have competent mastery of French, German, Italian and Spanish. I understand Portuguese, but I do not speak it.

These four languages derived from Latin, most of the time, display their Latin roots. But:-

'Bellum' is Latin for 'War' and it is neuter. But there is no neuter in the modern European languages derived from Latin; only masculine and feminine, and that puts genders out of kilter with each other for a start.

A far cry from L. 'Bellum', the word for War in Fr. 'Guerre', It. Sp. & Por. is 'Guerra' - feminine in all four languages. I do not know why the resemblance to 'Bellum' has disappeared.

The Italian and Spanish languages are so similar and yet so different and one has to be careful in comparing genders between them. Spanish has taken on a linguistic evolution all of its own and compared with French and Italian, which use both 'to have' and 'to be' as auxiliary verbs, whereas Spanish only uses 'to have' as its invariable auxiliary verb.

If I am unsure of the gender of a French noun, it is the Italian equivalent word I look to for guidance, rather than the equivalent Spanish word, because usually (but not always) French and Italian genders tend to be the same.

The word for 'Milk' is 'le lait'(masc.) Fr.; 'il latte' (masc.) It., but 'la leche' (fem.) Sp.

Similarly, the word for 'blood' is 'le sang'(masc) Fr.; 'il sangue' (masc.) It., but 'la sangre' (fem.) Sp.

Those two examples make my point that genders are not always consistently the same in Fr. It. & Sp. and that these modern European languages derived from Latin, do not always correspond with each other in all respects, which is the point I am making here.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
'bellum' still exists in French as 'belliciste' (warmongering,bellicose) and' belligerance'

'guerre' etc comes from Germanic 'werre' although,as you know modern German uses 'Krieg' for 'war'

All our European languages borrow from one another.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
The Guardian, home of progressive expression, tells us that Latin is returning to English cathedrals.
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
'bellum' still exists in French as 'belliciste' (warmongering,bellicose) and' belligerance'

'guerre' etc comes from Germanic 'werre' although,as you know modern German uses 'Krieg' for 'war'

All our European languages borrow from one another.
It's really weird with Gaelic to discover that for a lot of ecclesiastical terminology it's closer to the Latin and Greek than to English (and than English is to either).
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's really weird with Gaelic to discover that for a lot of ecclesiastical terminology it's closer to the Latin and Greek than to English (and than English is to either).
Are you referring to Scots Gaelic? What's weird about that? Latin would have been the language of the church at the time the current language was formed, not English (or Scots).
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's really weird with Gaelic to discover that for a lot of ecclesiastical terminology it's closer to the Latin and Greek than to English (and than English is to either).
Are you referring to Scots Gaelic? What's weird about that? Latin would have been the language of the church at the time the current language was formed, not English (or Scots).
The fact of it is not weird (as you say it's not surprising when you think about it) but the discovery of it is one of those things that pulls you up short because you didn't think about it initially. Though it is interesting that English has chewed up the words more than Gaelic has, so Church (and indeed Kirk) come from a Greek root via a Germanic one, whereas the Gaelic Eaglais is pretty transparently from Greek and Latin.
 
Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :
 
Gleneagles, Valley of the Flying Bishops.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Valley of the church (of St Mungo)
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
'bellum' still exists in French as 'belliciste' (warmongering,bellicose) and' belligerance'

'guerre' etc comes from Germanic 'werre' although,as you know modern German uses 'Krieg' for 'war'

All our European languages borrow from one another.
Thanks for reminding me that there is such a word as "belligerence", which fits in, of course. Also for your etymology about "guerre" "guerra". Yes, "Krieg" I knew, but I did not visit that, as it did not seem relevant to what I was saying.

There would seem to be no logical explanation to my point, as to why genders vary from one language to another.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's really weird with Gaelic to discover that for a lot of ecclesiastical terminology it's closer to the Latin and Greek than to English (and than English is to either).
Are you referring to Scots Gaelic? What's weird about that? Latin would have been the language of the church at the time the current language was formed, not English (or Scots).
That's presumably true of English too, though, so it doesn't on its own explain the discrepancy.

[ 07. July 2016, 11:05: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
As my tutor in Hebrew said many many many moons ago, there is a dynamic in how each language develops and changes and all we can really do is try to figure out why and how, and sometimes we can't.
 
Posted by Vidi Aquam (# 18433) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tibi Omnes:
Are there liberal Catholics (or even schismatics) who use the Latin liturgy? All my experiences with extraordinary rite folks so far have been off-putting .
There is a liberal Episcopal parish in Los Angeles that has a weekly Latin Mass (although it is more of a Latin-English hybrid). It has some things that Traditional Catholics may object to (Eucharistic ministers, laymen reading the epistle, concelebration, female priests, Communion in the hand, the choir singing in front of the altar blocking the view, etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
There are two churches in the Phoenix area, one Roman Catholic and the other sede vacante Catholic (although they claim to be Roman Catholic -- perhaps they've reconciled), that use the Tridentine mass in Latin. See here and here.
Sedevacantists consider themselves to be Roman Catholic. They do not consider the Vatican to be Catholic, so see no need to ever reconcile with it.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:
quote:
Originally posted by Tibi Omnes:
Are there liberal Catholics (or even schismatics) who use the Latin liturgy? All my experiences with extraordinary rite folks so far have been off-putting .
There is a liberal Episcopal parish in Los Angeles that has a weekly Latin Mass (although it is more of a Latin-English hybrid). It has some things that Traditional Catholics may object to (Eucharistic ministers, laymen reading the epistle, concelebration, female priests, Communion in the hand, the choir singing in front of the altar blocking the view, etc.)
The Latin Mass at St Thomas looks awfully fussy and idiosyncratic to me. There used to be a video on YouTube of the Latin Vigil Mass at the Church of the Advent of Christ the King in SF, which was more natural in execution.

[ 02. September 2016, 21:06: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
 


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