Thread: head covering Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :
 
Sheer curiosity:

Do many churches have a standard of women covering their hair?
Does anyone here disagree with their church - either by thinking they should cover their hair when it's not the norm, or by thinking they shouldn't have to cover their hair when everyone else seems okay with it?
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Up until the early 70s I would never go into a church without my head covered -- even if it was not for a service. I was surprised how quickly that custom ended.

(Episcopal Church in the U.S.)
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
My experience is much the same as Pigwidgeon's, always a head covering in the Episcopal Church. I hated this as a child and a teen (and had a mother who loved to wear hats, so it was a source of much Sunday morning grumbling). I do not know how the practice ended, and I would be interested to know.

I believe it may still be the practice in eastern Orthodox churches ... perhaps our shippies from that tradition will weigh in.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
My Lutheran grandmother always wore some sort of headcovering. But my Methodist grandmother stopped in the 70's. The scandal at the congregation I grew up in was when my mother started wearing a pantsuit to church.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I'll send Josephine here, if she's willing. She is the family expert on this because she's (a) a woman, and (b) a head-coverer by choice. She can tell you about the Orthodox practices (there is no one single practice), and her own beliefs and behaviors. (I stay out of it.)
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Used to be a huge issue in the Open Brethren, but has pretty much evaporated except in a few small, tight assemblies.

My very conservative mother-in-law abandoned the practice in her 80s after observing it since childhood.

A popular illustration of its disproportionate importance was the story of the two Brethren worthies overhead discussing Rome:

"Say what you will about Catholics, at least they're sound [ie Nicene/Chalcedonian] on the person of the Lord".

"Yes,and they make their women cover their heads".
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
The Brethren assembly I grew up in kept a handy store of scarves in a cupboard at the front door should any hapless head-uncovered woman appear.

It's still practised by some women round here, notably in neo-pentecostal circles, but appears to me to be a "holiness statement" more than anything else. Some people turn up covered in what is basically a tent, with great ostentation, which to me seems to run entirely counter to what one might have thought Paul to be on about.

The place I see it the most is in our gypsy churches (accompanied by a mandatory skirt as opposed to trousers), but the practice seems to be dying out among the younger women with no obvious complaint from the leadership.

Finally, I'm wondering whether our own church has just lost a recent regular visitor who is an ex-JW of 40 years' standing, because women in our congregation pray without their heads covered.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
In June 1976 I was part of a mission team that spent three weeks in a Pentecostal church in Fraserburgh, Scotland. This was not long after the "Taylorite Brethren" scandal and quite a few former Brethren (and "Sisteren") had left and joined the Pentecostals. This, and tradition, led to a high proportion of folk who believed that heads should be covered in worship, though it was never mandated by the church leadership.

I have never seen so many hats - mostly wide-brimmed "summery" ones - in a church! They seemed femininely ubiquitous and, indeed, competitive. When preaching one looked down upon a sea of assorted millinery.
 
Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
It did have a renaissance in the House Church movement for a while, around the 1980s. There was one on our street where headscarves were the uniform for Sunday meetings.

No idea if they 1) still exist 2) still do this.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
My impression is that it gradually died out sometime in the sixties in the CofE but lasted until the seventies or later in the Brethren and among some free-lance groups. I can remember girls about my age who felt they had to put on a scarf before praying in a home group, sometime around 1970.

I have to admit that I find it disconcerting to see young men wearing assorted caps in church these days. I don't really approve but remain silent, and think 'don't they know they aren't supposed to' or 'why doesn't somebody tell them'.
 
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
Can vouch for it in Closed Brethren right up to 1990s when there was one locally. I would see one woman in particular on a Sunday with her headscarf on. My memory says that the singular was appropriate. My Grandmother right into the 1980s would have always worn a hat to church. She attended Baptist at the time.

Jengie
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
It was still common to see women in hats when I was growing up in the 1970s and 80s. They were as Baptist Trainfan describes, wide brimmed, often trimmed with artificial flowers, all sorts of lovely pastel and bright colours and quite ostentatious. Many Free Church members walked to church, believing that driving broke the Sabbath, so there could be quite a parade of gorgeously hatted women in town.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
My mother has promised to wear a mantilla exactly once in her life — at my wedding.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
@NEQ: Perhaps they were an Aberdeenshire/Buchan speciality?

Re. driving to church: I don't recall that as a problem in "The Broch", however at that time there was but one Sunday bus service in the town, ending up in front of the Parish Church at about 10.30 am and leaving at about 12.15 pm. I wonder if it waited if the sermon went on too long (perhaps it did, if the driver attended the service!)? Now there doesn't appear to be a Sunday town service there at all, but I doubt if it is because of a rise in strict Sabbatarianism!

[ 25. August 2016, 12:49: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
I grew up in the Open Brethren and was expected to wear a head-covering in the services.

As a teenager, I loathed having to cover my head during worship, it felt so restrictive and, yes, sexist. (I was discovering feminism at that age. [Big Grin] )

Never covered my head since.

I have no issue, zero, zip, nada, with Orthodox women, Catholic women, Jewish women, Muslim women, charismatic women, et al, choosing to cover their heads during worship. [Smile]

I would have issues with men ordering women to do it. Personal religious liberty then becomes legalism.

Having said that, I had to cover my head when visiting a mosque and a Sikh temple, because them's the rules, and I took no umbrage at this. Things are a bit different when you're a guest.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I have to admit that I find it disconcerting to see young men wearing assorted caps in church these days. I don't really approve but remain silent, and think 'don't they know they aren't supposed to' or 'why doesn't somebody tell them'.
At a church I used to attend, the youth group was holding a car wash in the parking lot. The young man who was their leader brought the kids into the church for Communion; he was wearing a baseball cap, having been working out in the sun. As he went up the aisle he passed his mother -- who reached over and removed his cap as he passed.
 
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
The Mennonites have a long history of head coverings for women. However, there are many denominations of Mennonites, and quite a few of them are moving away from coverings. The one my church belong to, Mennonite Church USA, doesn't have the practice.

When I was doing anthropological research among the Amish, I met quite a few people from various sub-groups in the Anabaptist-soaked area where I was doing fieldwork. Each sub-group had a different style of covering.

Most Quakers laid down plain dress a long time ago, although you can still see it among people in one of the four Quaker denominations in the US. Have never seen a covering at my Meeting or among Friends in general, but I know that the practice still exists. Even the one Friend I met who felt led to plain dress did not cover her head.

sabine
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I have to admit that I find it disconcerting to see young men wearing assorted caps in church these days. I don't really approve but remain silent, and think 'don't they know they aren't supposed to' or 'why doesn't somebody tell them'.
At a church I used to attend, the youth group was holding a car wash in the parking lot. The young man who was their leader brought the kids into the church for Communion; he was wearing a baseball cap, having been working out in the sun. As he went up the aisle he passed his mother -- who reached over and removed his cap as he passed.
It's a fairly common anxiety dream for me that I'm in church (when the dream begins) with a hat on and hasten to remove it. On the other hand, one of the fringe enjoyments I get from going to shul is the chance to rock headgear. I have an impressive fedora with a feather that my sister gave me, and on one occasion I wore a pink bandanna to the amusement of the kids present.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I have to admit that I find it disconcerting to see young men wearing assorted caps in church these days. . . .
At a church I used to attend, the youth group was holding a car wash in the parking lot. The young man who was their leader brought the kids into the church for Communion; he was wearing a baseball cap, having been working out in the sun. As he went up the aisle he passed his mother -- who reached over and removed his cap as he passed.
And rightly so! What's the matter with kids today? They ain't taught no manners! [Mad]
 
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
If you visit an Orthodox church with roots in the Russian traditions, most or all of the women will have their head covered, usually with scarves. If you visit an Orthodox church with roots in the Greek and Arabic traditions, most or all of the women will not have their head covered. Some will have a scarf draped around their neck or shoulders, so that they can cover their head when they approach the chalice to take communion.

Some Orthodox women keep a scarf at their prayer corner at home, so they can cover when they pray at home.

A few Orthodox women cover their heads just about all the time, with scarves wrapped and tied in a variety of ways.

And, yes, with people being people, if you're at a Greek parish, and you cover in the Russian fashion, there might be people who let you know they don't approve. And if you're at a Russian parish with a bare head, there might be people who let you know they don't approve, and someone might even hand you a scarf from a basket out in the narthex.

But the general rule in Orthodoxy is that you mind your own business when it comes to other people's piety. And in most parishes from whatever tradition, in the US and Canada, you'll see some women with their heads covered and some not.

If you ask Orthodox women why they cover, the answer will (almost) never be as a sign of submission to their husband. (If you do hear that, the woman saying that is a convert from a Western tradition, guaranteed.) Rather, you'll hear them say that they cover because that's what Orthodox women have always done; it's what our foremothers in the faith did, so we do it to honor them; because the Theotokos is always covered in her icons, and we want to emulate her; because St. Paul said we should; as a way to reduce distractions during worship and prayer; for the sake of the angels.

Some will point out that the headcovering, according to St. Paul, and according to the practice of the church, doesn't represent submission or humility. Instead, it is a sign of honor or authority or power. The chalice and paten on the altar are veiled; women are likewise veiled. Bishops and monastics and certain high-ranking priests are permitted to wear headcoverings in the church, as are all women.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
We saw until the 1960s or early 1970s that immigrants from Orthodox lands (Galicia - western Ukraine, parts of Poland, Romania) generally wore head coverings when out of the house, whether they were religiously Ukrainian Catholic or Orthodox. Worn all the time. Babushka is what we call it here, and it also refers to the woman wearing it. It was sort of thought of as a Orthodox or Doukobor hijab when I was young. Not so common now.
 
Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you visit an Orthodox church with roots in the Russian traditions, most or all of the women will have their head covered, usually with scarves. If you visit an Orthodox church with roots in the Greek and Arabic traditions, most or all of the women will not have their head covered. Some will have a scarf draped around their neck or shoulders, so that they can cover their head when they approach the chalice to take communion.
We have a Ghanaian parishioner who always wears a shawl which she draws up as she enters the chancel (or when we use the basement Lady Chapel, as we sometimes do on summer weekdays, when she passes through the iconostasis) for communion.

[ 25. August 2016, 17:21: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Mousethief and Josephine - thank you. Very interesting.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
I would never dictate to anyone whether they should cover in church or not.

In some of our parishes it is the custom for women to cover their heads. In others, it's all but unknown. I have one parishioner who does, and who apparently has since she was young; she grew up in what I think must have been the sole Anglo-Catholic parish in the Diocese of Virginia, whose rector was a Bahamian transplant.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
quote:

The young man who was their leader brought the kids into the church for Communion; he was wearing a baseball cap, having been working out in the sun. As he went up the aisle he passed his mother -- who reached over and removed his cap as he passed.
And rightly so! What's the matter with kids today? They ain't taught no manners! [Mad]
In this case I'd say he just forgot--as his mother obviously knew the rule, and expected him to follow it. Surely she taught him better at home.

[ 25. August 2016, 18:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :
 
I will never forget the time when my beadle, a retired lieutenant colonel, ordered a bunch of supposedly posh young men (Old Etonians, if I remember rightly, certainly those who ought to have known) coming into church for a wedding to remove their headgear. They had been coming up the path in what you might call flown and levitous mood, and with that one injunction, he sobered them up for a fairly respectful wedding.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
quote:

The young man who was their leader brought the kids into the church for Communion; he was wearing a baseball cap, having been working out in the sun. As he went up the aisle he passed his mother -- who reached over and removed his cap as he passed.
And rightly so! What's the matter with kids today? They ain't taught no manners! [Mad]
In this case I'd say he just forgot--as his mother obviously knew the rule, and expected him to follow it. Surely she taught him better at home.
He was probably in his late 20s, married, and had kids of his own. I think he just forgot that he was wearing it -- and the congregation was amused by what happened.
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
Churches that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass (and I mean churches in communion with Rome and their local bishop) typically feature most, though not all, women with covered heads. My parish, which is staffed by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and celebrates the old rite exclusively, is such a parish. There is a minority of women who never cover their heads. But most do, as the custom is well-established, and newbies usually end up doing so if they plan to stick around. Mantillas of various sorts are what most wear, but a few wear chapel caps or other types of hats.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Curiously, when I visited St Basil's in Red Square in the early 80s- by which time it have been deconsecrated for over 50 years- we chaps were told by one of the women attendants, in no uncertain terms, to remove our hats. The girls with us were not.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
we chaps were told by one of the women attendants, in no uncertain terms, to remove our hats. The girls with us were not.
A gentleman always removes his hat indoors, whether in consecrated space or not. A lady removes hers only in her own home (or, it must be added nowadays, her place of business).
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
The wearing of hats has died out (thankfully).

There were theological reasons for it but it did produce a kind of oneupmanship and/or criticism.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The wearing of hats has died out (thankfully).

There were theological reasons for it but it did produce a kind of oneupmanship and/or criticism.
Surely not dead. The hat is a very useful accessory:


Etc.

[ 25. August 2016, 21:23: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
In the days when women did wear hats, I have never heard anyone suggest it was anything to do with submission or anything else more complicated. It was 'because St Paul said so'.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In the days when women did wear hats, I have never heard anyone suggest it was anything to do with submission.
They certainly did in the Brethren and parts of the New Church movement, many of whose leaders came from the Brethren.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In the days when women did wear hats, I have never heard anyone suggest it was anything to do with submission or anything else more complicated. It was 'because St Paul said so'.
Maybe sometimes. But in my experience, it had less to do with St. Paul and more to do with the idea that a lady never went out without a hat. As my mother would have said, it simply wasn't done.
 
Posted by St Deird (# 7631) on :
 
Thanks, Josephine. That's very informative.

It's very hard to find information on the internet about headcovering that doesn't focus on "because it shows my obedience to male authority!". It's nice to hear some other reasons.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
Many years ago before I married into a very strict but not Exclusive Brethren meeting, my fiance asked me to go to his grandmother who was ill to get Sunday lunch ready.Sunday lunch trumped the breaking of bread. Please note sarcasm. I went back to collect him and arrived after the meeting had ended. I was almost pushed out the door by him as I had no covering on my head, not even a scarf. I did not see the point at all. People were milling around talking.There was a drawer of scarves in case someone female, young or old, turned up without a hat or scarf. That meeting, now much diminished in size, still exists with same provisos on covering. I remember many women outdoing each other in the amount paid for their hats.

Women from Exclusive or Londoner meetings down here still wear black headbands which were supposedly a sign of submission.

[ 26. August 2016, 04:03: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The wearing of hats has died out (thankfully).

There were theological reasons for it but it did produce a kind of oneupmanship and/or criticism.
Surely not dead. The hat is a very useful accessory:


Etc.
Sorry! I meant wearing one to church as a matter of course.

Mrs M has worn one from time to time and looks gorgeous!!
 
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Mousethief and Josephine - thank you. Very interesting.
Ditto.
 
Posted by Tobias (# 18613) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Churches that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass (and I mean churches in communion with Rome and their local bishop) typically feature most, though not all, women with covered heads... There is a minority of women who never cover their heads. But most do, as the custom is well-established, and newbies usually end up doing so if they plan to stick around.
I attended the Latin Mass for part of my childhood and adolescence, and remember, one of the first times we went, a woman hurriedly producing a mantilla for my mother to wear, and saying in an anxious whisper, "You had better put this on, or someone might tell you off". We later realised that she was referring to a particular Someone, her husband, a man of definite views and brusque manner. On the other hand, I never heard of a priest bringing the matter up with anyone, nor was there any official-sounding statement on the matter (in a sermon, for instance, or in a notice in the bulletin).

If the reason for head-covering was discussed, there would probably be a reference to its being commanded by St Paul, but the emphasis was normally on its being a part of Catholic tradition, one of many such customs unceremoniously abandoned after the Second Vatican Council.

Do any shipmates know or remember how that change took place? Was there some sort of announcement that the rule (and it was essentially a rule) had been relaxed? Or did women simply start coming to church without hats, in such numbers that it became impossible to insist on it?
 
Posted by Marama (# 330) on :
 
When I walk to church in the summer I usually wear a (sun)hat. But I usually remove it at the door - in the UCA hats are not normally worn. But no-one would worry if a women kept her hat on.

In the Pacific women in Cook Islands and Tahiti normally wear hats to church - and they are from the LMS (Congregational) tradition. Elsewhere women are normally bareheaded - which suggests something interesting culturally going on - and I'm not sure exactly what it is.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tobias:
Do any shipmates know or remember how that change took place? Was there some sort of announcement that the rule (and it was essentially a rule) had been relaxed? Or did women simply start coming to church without hats, in such numbers that it became impossible to insist on it?
I can't answer that. But certainly, in 1950s Britain, hats were almost universally worn by both men and women, on the journey to work, at the beach, when going shopping etc. Indeed, there was a definite belief that you would die of a chill if you went out hatless! There was a definite change in the popular culture of hat-wearing in the 1960s. ISTM that the main remnant of it today is hats for Weddings, Race Meetings and Royal garden parties (also men's boaters at Henley Regatta, and school caps at posh schools).
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
i can think of two women who wear, or wore, hats recently at our church. One was simply an elegantly dressed (but not over-dressed) person who liked to wear a hat. The other had been having chemo treatment.

GG
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
This photo from 1944 Canada shows the ubiquity of men's hats in that bygone era.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Don't you think the hat wearing Canadians in the photograph might be more to do with the ambient temperature?
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't you think the hat wearing Canadians in the photograph might be more to do with the ambient temperature?
Could be. It gets muckle cold in parts of North America even today and yet hat wearing is not nearly so plenary as shown here.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Don't you think the hat wearing Canadians in the photograph might be more to do with the ambient temperature?
In the picture, certainly.

But I remember my grandfather gardening in mid-July wearing his hat in the mid 50s, and men would normally wear hats even in mid-summer at that time.

John
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
This May 1960 FA Cup Final crowd indicates a much higher degree of hat wearing than is common today. (It was clearly shirt sleeves weather.)

There are several crowd scenes on this Daily Mail (sorry) page from which it was taken. Broadly speaking, men's hat wearing seems to have been more common in the past.
 
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :
 
Episcopal Church USA wore some type of head covering,until late 60's. I was told it was to show respect to God. You wore your good clothes as well, not your school clothes. When I was young it always seemed a special thing to do. I liked it.

When I go into the church to pray alone now I sometimes wear a vail. It puts me into the mood of prayer. It is showing respect to our Lord. Holy Ground. If alone I also may take off my shoes. I think of it as preparing myself for worship.

I sometimes wear a hat to church on Sunday morning simply because I happen to enjoy a hat and do not have an occasion to wear one very often.

[ 26. August 2016, 18:41: Message edited by: Graven Image ]
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
This May 1960 FA Cup Final crowd indicates a much higher degree of hat wearing than is common today. (It was clearly shirt sleeves weather.)

There are several crowd scenes on this Daily Mail (sorry) page from which it was taken. Broadly speaking, men's hat wearing seems to have been more common in the past.
Bloody JFK's fault, I reckon. And did for the waistcoat too.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Up until the early 70s I would never go into a church without my head covered -- even if it was not for a service. I was surprised how quickly that custom ended.

(Episcopal Church in the U.S.)
Several things happened close in time to each other in the 60s to reduce the previously almost universal wearing of hats when out doors (men, women sometimes also indoors).

Bouffant hair styles started showing up in the late 50s, but a hat squished the hair down and you looked terrible after taking off the hat. Being socially required to wear a hat in church but also to look good hatless at lunch after church was impossibly frustrating. I remember buying a ribbon on a comb to be the token required "hat" for church to reduce damage to the hairdo. (Before bouffant, hair dos were petty much flat - pincurls, braids, close cropped.)

Also the general 60s cultural rebellion against the rigidly rule-bound 50s culture. The 60s revolution was very much about challenging the old norms. Hats (as well as oppression of blacks and women via such things as unequal opportunity or pay) were another pointless social norm

Also cars got smaller, man or woman you couldn't wear a hat inside a VW bug, older styles of car had lots more headroom. More compact streamlined cars made hats impractical.

In my Episcopal church, a "pillar of the church" named Dorothy sat down front. One day she showed up hatless. The next week 80% of women did not wear a hat to church. The revolution was eagerly waiting to happen.

(I think also Vatican 2 quietly eliminated the hats for women requirement in the late 60s; that would influence people as part of the general looking around to see what others are doing.)
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
I can remember Mum taking my brother and i shopping for a "hat for church" in Wellington, Aotearoa-New Zealand in 1965.
We found a lovely one in cafe-au-lait straw with a matching ribbon and a toning flower. We told Mum she was so beautiful. I'll never forget that day.
I think maybe she had one more hat after that one for suburban Presbyterian services.
 
Posted by Baker (# 18458) on :
 
Here in Topeka, Kansas, USA, I know of only one congregation that absolutely requires their women to cover the head in church. That's the notorious Westboro Baptist Church, they of the hateful picketing practise.

I grew up Lutheran and women stopped wearing hats before women wearing pants outfits appeared.

I'm now Episcopal and from pictures I can see they wore hats into the late sixties, but it's not done now.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
At 0.57 in this clip the camera looks down on the congregation from the balcony of a church on Lewis and at 2.17 the camera pans along from behind. Most of the women are wearing hats. These are the sort of hats women wore to church in winter when I was a girl. Summer hats were more brightly coloured.

(Watch the whole clip for truly glorious psalm singing.)
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Beautiful singing! Beautiful faces!

The precentor's accent when speaking English sounded more Irish than Scots to me. Is that typical or isn't he a local?
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
That's a proper Western Isles accent.

It is beautiful, isn't it?
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
North East Quire, you'll probably tell me I'm talking nonsense but in my experience first language Gaelic speakers have a very distinctive accent when speaking Scottish English, even when they are fully fluent in it - in a way that is much more noticeable than with first language Welsh speakers.

The other things that I find curious is that most of the Gaelic tunes are theoretically the same tunes as appear in the psalms section of the Church Hymnary in English, but sound nothing like their English versions.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
I agree, Enoch, there's no disguising a Western Isles accent. I don't know any native Welsh speakers, so can't compare.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Some are identifiable, not so much from their accents as from their general way of speaking English, as first-language Welsh speakers, but most aren't. But then I imagine that first-langauge Welsh speaking has a wider geographical and perhaps class spread than Gaelic, so a wider range of accents in both Welsh and English.
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
Two mileposts I recall:

1. I was in high school (so about 1955) when our small Methodist church choir jumped 'up the candle' enough to acquire robes. (They were an abominable burgundy color.) There was much discussion if the women should take off their hats -- they decided to do so. (Canterbury caps and beanies were not considered, IIRC.)

2. I was in a large liturgical supply store in Chicago (this would have been around 1960). A group of women, the choir of a rather 'posh' African American church was shopping for new headgear. The sales person, a bit at a loss, said 'Well this is what we have, gesturing toward the shelves. The ladies were delighted and pounced immediately on -- wait for it -- violet silk birettas with amaranth piping and pompons. i'm not making that up, I swear!
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I knew a first-language Welsh speaker from a remote village who spoke English with a Mancunian accent, because her teacher was from Manchester. But she didn't speak English at all until about 10 or 11 years old.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
We have a friend who's a first-language Welsh Londoner, whose parents came from Gwaun-cae-Gurwen. So he speaks English with a Middlesex accent and Welsh with a Swansea Valley one.
 
Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
I was part of the house church/restoration movement of the 1970's and 80's. WE were taught to wear head covering- for a long time a head scarf but when Dianna made ladies hats fashionable many of us wore hats. I can remember long discourses on Paul's views about head covering. then sometime around the end of the 80's early 90's there was a shift as it was decided that such teaching was counter productive when it came to mission. I went back to the C of E about that time where hat wearing had long since disappeared but over the years have often wondered about the issue and had arguments with myself over whether if I truly believed it was God's word I should still be wearing a head covering. I do wonder what my congregations would make of it if I presided at communion wearing a hat ( or head scarf)

[ 29. August 2016, 21:26: Message edited by: Jante ]
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Try a zuchetto.

John
 
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :
 
I do remember when all female members of the choir wore little skull caps, and when the women guides at the National Cathedral in Washington D.C. would all wear special hats. I have not been to the Cathedral in years, but something tells me they have ditched the head gear.
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
I've never been part of a church where women habitually covered their heads. I do, however, recall a conversation with a group of Muslim students of mine about head covering as a gesture of respect. I was teaching them in a school which had a mosque attached, and entrance was via the main prayer room. As I had to walk there from the train station I often wore a long coat and wide-brimmed hat to keep the rain off. Good Anglican that I am, I'd been raised to always remove my hate before entering church, and automatically applied that same rule for the prayer room. The Islamic tradition, of course, is that heads are covered in the prayer room, and the students consequently asked why I removed my hat at the door and were intrigued by the contrasting traditions.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I do remember when all female members of the choir wore little skull caps, and when the women guides at the National Cathedral in Washington D.C. would all wear special hats. I have not been to the Cathedral in years, but something tells me they have ditched the head gear.
A zucchetto does nothing for a woman's hairdo, but is excellent for those with male pattern baldness. In 50s and 60s Sydney churches of MOTR and above, it was common for men and women choristers to wear blue cassocks with Canterbury caps.

Upthread, someone noted the value of hats in warding off the sun's rays, especially in summer - it could have been Miss Amanda. Of course a toque is not much use for that. The Cancer Council strongly encourages hat wearing in summer, and we notice that many in the congregation at St Sanity, both men and women, follow that advice.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'd been raised to always remove my hate before entering church,
Excellent advice.
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Our church Women's Group had a visiting Muslim speaker, talking about life as a Muslim in Scotland. We were discussing her choice of everyday clothing (long sleeved tops and trousers, plus hijab) and she said something about Christians having no tradition of female head covering. So we showed her 1 Cor 11 and she was stunned. She couldn't comprehend how anyone could criticise the hijab when we have similar rules in the Bible.
 
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
French Prime Minister Manuel Vals, who has been defending his anti-hijab campaign by appealing to the bare-breasted figure of Liberté, is in trouble for utterly failing to notice that in addition to bare boobs, she also sports a Phrygian cap.

Cultural blindness is a funny thing.

[ETA the BBC has just this minute supplied a link to the story!

[ 30. August 2016, 11:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Hat wearing by women is still VERY common among predominantly African-American churches in the US--particularly in the south. I'm not sure if that's the case elsewhere in the US, or if it's died out.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
The Black British Pentecostal congregations used to insist on hat-wearing for the women, but that rule seems to have been relaxed in many places now (although I think it's still retained in Apostolic/United Pentecostal congregations).

IME older black Christian women are more likely than any other women, even older white women, to wear hats to church in British congregations.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Hat wearing by women is still VERY common among predominantly African-American churches in the US--particularly in the south. I'm not sure if that's the case elsewhere in the US, or if it's died out.
The woman's hat is often referred to as her crown. Has more to do with celebrating uniqueness and worth and joy in God (in contrast to mental depersonalizing weekday jobs) than "submission." article about crowns

But also, I'd forgotten that even in the 50s the Episcopalian choir ladies did not wear hats, looking back that seems startling in a rigidly "women must wear a hat in church" culture. But the choir was exclusively male in the 40s, probably when it integrated the choir just continued with the long standing choir costume of robes and bare head. I can't remember if we wore a hat to church and took it off to put on choir robes and put the hat on again to go to coffee. I'm going to guess yes, because being hatless just wasn't done. (And I still have a collection of gloves.)
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Our church Women's Group had a visiting Muslim speaker, talking about life as a Muslim in Scotland. We were discussing her choice of everyday clothing (long sleeved tops and trousers, plus hijab) and she said something about Christians having no tradition of female head covering. So we showed her 1 Cor 11 and she was stunned. She couldn't comprehend how anyone could criticise the hijab when we have similar rules in the Bible.
Well, that's about a particular attitude to Scripture, isn't it? Most of the things that I dislike about the supposedly religiously-ordained customs of some Muslims are have their parallels in a kind of Christianity which I equally dislike. Not that I'd prevent people from dressing in almost any way they wish (I have been known to object to shops displaying T shirts with obscenities on them, but probably wouldn't have the guts to challenge someone who was wearing one, unless perhaps they turned up to church in it when I'd find them an alternative or a cover!). But there are ways in which I would rather some people, including some Muslims, didn't dress. That's my business, not theirs, though.
 
Posted by Vidi Aquam (# 18433) on :
 
Some women in Anglican churches (in the USA) wear chapel veils, but the majority do not. I have never seen a chapel veil in the mainline Episcopal Church.

In the tiny Old Roman Catholic chapel I attended in Boston, women sometimes wore the chapel veil on their heads, and sometimes just on their shoulders.

Chapel veils (as well as long skirts or dresses) are required for women attended the Traditional Latin Mass (at independent chapels or CMRI, SSPX, etc.). Often times there is someone standing at the door handing out veils if a woman shows up without one on. If not then there would usually be a sign on the wall and/or in the bulletin urging women to wear head coverings and skirts/dresses.

I have a collection of chapel veils that I lend to my lady friends that are going to Mass with me. I also ask that they wear long dresses/skirts. All have obliged except one. Even though she wore skirts at other times, she insisted on wearing blue jeans and being bare headed at Mass. When we walked in the door the usher handed her a veil and asked her to put it on. She refused and walked out. I went into the chapel and we met up later after Mass.

It looks really nice to see people dressed out of the ordinary at Mass. It sets it apart from the day to day world (as does the Latin). It's like you're entering into a spiritual realm. It really sets the mood.

Someone once described chapel veils as women's liturgical vestments. I thought that was a great way to put it.

I don't like getting dressed up in tie, button down shirt, slacks, and dress shoes, but that is what is expected of me, so I do it.
 
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :
 
Last spring I took my god-children to London and of course we paid a visit to the Tower. The Yeoman Warder conducting us about made a point, most insistently, that men remove their hats upon entering the chapel. And when one visitor did not, the tour was interrupted until the offender uncovered.

The ladies of the Trick pew indulge me (stop me moaning) by wearing hats on Easter Day but do so at no other time.

I always assumed hat-wearing in church declined proportionally to the cessation of hat-wearing in secular culture.
 


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