Ship of Fools: University serves Halal meat in canteen

Thread: University serves Halal meat in canteen Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by toadstrike (# 18244) on :

In my dotage I'm doing a PhD at the local university (Hertfordshire). If the covered-head women is anything to go by, there are a lot of Moslem students in the undergrad intake.

I notice that the meat served is mostly Halal except where it obviously can't be like gammon and such.

It makes me wonder whether this is discrimination against non-Muslims?

I dislike the idea of Halal because of the cruelty of the slaughter.

Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.

I'd be tempted to make a fuss but no doubt that would be seen as being islamophobic.

Thoughts anyone?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

The only issue for non-Muslims would be the cruelty issue, which is the same for non-Halal meat. Halal does not have to mean cruel.

quote:
Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I used to work with a rabbi, who in a previous job had gone to food factories across Colorado and Wyoming to ensure that they satisfied the requirements for kosher certification. He taught me that most of the processed food we eat is kosher, and where to look for the kosher label.

So if you determine that compliance with another religion's ceremony makes food potentially idolatrous and tried to remove it from your diet, I suspect that you'd be cutting quite a bit of stuff out of your diet.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.

Possibly, but St. Paul regarded the people who had a problem with this as the weak ones who needed education - rather than (as often thought) the opposite.

Laying aside the cruelty issue, on which I can't comment: doesn't it make the catering simpler if all the meat can come from the one source?

Also, would you have any objection if most of the students were Jewish and all the food on offer was Kosher? - worth thinking about. (I appreciate that this is a secular institution rather than a religious one).

[ 21. October 2016, 17:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

We had a visiting scientist from Malaysia with us for 3 months a couple of years ago, and on her last day took her to the restaurant across the road. The first question she asked the waiter was whether the meat they served was halal - and was told that all except their pork/bacon was halal. Even without a large muslim community in the area (probably a larger community near their other outlets in Glasgow) it was simply simpler to source meat from a small number of suppliers, and on the basis that some customers may require halal/kosher meat but no one else would even think about it they bought halal by default. I would expect that would be true of most restaurants.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:

Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.

In which case I doubt they understand the context into which Paul was speaking.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I'm pretty sure there is no (additional) cruelty issue with the vast majority of Halal-labelled meat in the UK - my recollection is that the vast majority is pre-stunned. Frankly, the non-Halal slaughter process isn't exactly great. Halal done properly, even without pre-stunning, can be just as humane as what is standard practice for non-Halal abattoirs in the UK.

As for the "meat offered to idols"? What utter nonsense. You can think that Muslims are mistaken about God, but Muslims are about the least likely candidates to accuse of idolatry.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

toadstrike

They are onto a hiding for nothing. For a reason, which I will not go into, as I have no intention of so formally outing myself, I happened to check with the local university chaplain about halal meat suppliers locally. The answer is that there are various certification regimes and no certification satisfies all Muslims.

The rule if you wish to satisfy all religious groups is vegetarian and preferably vegan. The vegan is not simply for Rastafarians but has a long history of adoption by a minority of Christians within Protestantism*.

Jengie

* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

You'll not then, toadstrike, have ever darkened the door of an Indian restaurant, or eaten a doner kebab?

Do you check the provenance of the meat and/or the relgious affiliation in every dining place or takeaway?

If not, why are you fretting about this particular one?

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:

I notice that the meat served is mostly Halal except where it obviously can't be like gammon and such.

If you're still concerned about eating halal, this suggests a compromise - live on bacon butties. Would work for me.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labelled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.

So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Does anyone here have direct experience of working in an abattoir or slaughterhouse?

I have.

I and can tell you from personal experience that halal is far crueller than the non halal methods. Quite apart from anything else, why have the RSPCA been trying to get it banned for years?

I don't have a problem with halal per se (except for the cruelty/trauma angle) but do have an issue with a lack of clarity whether the meat I might eat is halal or not.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Was this Halal with prestunning or without?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Without.

Pre stunning only happens in a very small minority of cases. If you pres tun you might as well slaughter in the "normal" way: there's no difference at all in the level of pain and/or quality of finished product.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

According to https://fullfact.org/news/stunned-slaughter-what-we-know-about-halal-meat-sold-uk/ most is prestunned.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat.

Is the cafeteria supposed to make money? I'd just allow them to sell whatever they want to, to do so. The focus on the nature of slaughter has always made me wonder if no-one cares about other aspects of animal husbandry. Like living conditions for cows in headstalls where they are "finished" for market.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by toadstrike:
Many Christians and others would consider it in the bracket of "meat offered to idols" due to the islamic ceremony.

As others have pointed out, to invoke this phrase as a reason not to eat halal meat is to utterly disregard Paul's entire argument on the subject, which can usefully be summed up as a defence of the individual conscience.

The issue of halal food, especially for school dinners, is frequently turned into a political football in France, especially with the principle of state neutrality (laïcité) in mind.

In a stunning display of good sense, my local authority has simply sidestepped the whole debate by offering four types of school meal, described as:

- standard menu of the day
- meal without meat
- meal without pork
- meal compliant with medically attested dietary needs.

If that doesn't satisfy you, bring your own butties.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labeled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

Nope. This is to demonstrate exactly how little you know of post-reformation dietary practice. There is no such claim made in my post, nobody has tried to claim the entire church was vegetarian. The claim for vegetarianism is about specific individual practice and rarely, if ever, adopted at even a congregational level. Its adoption, therefore, was in line with the historical adoption vegetarianism as an aesthetic discipline. What makes it different is that the reason for this adoption of vegetarianism is a prophetic witness rather than personal sanctity. Not all Christians are called to this style of witnessing to the kingdom, just as not all Christians are called to preach. Pacificism was similarly adopted by some as a prophetic behaviour witnessing to the kingdom post-Reformation.

Jengie

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

I've never witnessed Halal slaughter, but have seen both 'conventional' and Kosher slaughter of cattle and although there was no pre-stunning with the Kosher method, the speed and skill of slaughter were such that there was no discernible extra distress in the animals. The man who carried out the slaughter was referred to (by staff and by himself in conversation) as a 'visiting Rabbi', but I don't know exactly what his title was.

After killing and bleeding, each carcase was examined twice, by a meat inspector to pass it fit for human consumption and also by the Rabbi. Some Kosher slaughter carcasses that were fit to eat failed the Kosher inspection, and of the ones that 'passed', not all parts of the carcass were considered Kosher. These whole or part carcasses all entered into the regular food chain.

This was over 20 years ago and for all of that time there has been at least a small chance that any piece of ordinary (not organic or specialist) beef bought in a supermarket or eaten in a restaurant may have been Kosher slaughtered. Personally i have no difficulty with either, but for some reason most of the manufactured outrage about Halal meat in the conventional food chain has not extended to Kosher meat.

anne

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labeled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.
So, we were all vegetarians for the first three hundred years or so and then the Constantinian State came along and persuaded us to all eat meat until the Anabaptists turned up to put us right?

Sorry, I'll get my coat.
Nope. This is to demonstrate exactly how little you know of post-reformation dietary practice. There is no such claim made in my post, nobody has tried to claim the entire church was vegetarian. The claim for vegetarianism is about specific individual practice and rarely, if ever, adopted at even a congregational level. Its adoption, therefore, was in line with the historical adoption vegetarianism as an aesthetic discipline. What makes it different is that the reason for this adoption of vegetarianism is a prophetic witness rather than personal sanctity. Not all Christians are called to this style of witnessing to the kingdom, just as not all Christians are called to preach. Pacificism was similarly adopted by some as a prophetic behaviour witnessing to the kingdom post-Reformation.

Jengie

I'm sure that's correct. I was parodying the arguments for Pacifism set forth on a regular basis by a certain Shipmate, currently enjoying a certain amount of shore leave.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Does anyone here have direct experience of working in an abattoir or slaughterhouse?

I have.

I have toured through.

The slaughterhouse aspect of animals watching other animals being shot, then hoisted up to the ceiling, drained of blood, skinned and then halved looked to me to be more troublesome than the killing of the animals themselves. Pigs looked more troubled to me than cows and chickens.

Years ago (1970s) I shot animals (deer, ducks, grouse, rabbits, and varmits like gophers, skunks), and cut the throats of deer not dead yet from being shot and rabbits caught in snares. All death has an aspect of cruelty. We pretend if we think otherwise.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I was parodying the arguments for Pacifism set forth on a regular basis by a certain Shipmate, currently enjoying a certain amount of shore leave.

I'm sure that somewhere in Paul's teaching on weaker brethren and matters of conscience there's something about not taking the piss out of your adversary when they're unable to retaliate...

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
According to https://fullfact.org/news/stunned-slaughter-what-we-know-about-halal-meat-sold-uk/ most is prestunned.

"Now that's what I call a dead parrot."

"No, he's stunned!"

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
As for the "meat offered to idols"? What utter nonsense. You can think that Muslims are mistaken about God, but Muslims are about the least likely candidates to accuse of idolatry.

I agree. There are many things I dislike about Islam, but idolatry isn't one of them. In the early 1980's I spent two months in a rather remote spot in the west of Ireland, where mutton stew was regularly served, and I grew to love it. I've regularly made it with lamb over the years, because mutton is hard to find. A few years ago, when I was living in SE London, a local supermarket often sold halal mutton. So I often bought it to make Irish stew. I couldn't care less if it has been blessed by an imman or whatever, as long as it does the job.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!

I don't much like it, though.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat.

gammon1
ˈɡamən/
nounBRITISH
noun: gammon
ham which has been cured or smoked like bacon.
"gammon steaks"
the bottom piece of a side of bacon, including a hind leg.
plural noun: gammons
"a whole gammon on the bone"
Origin

late 15th century (denoting the haunch of a pig): from Old Northern French gambon, from gambe ‘leg’.

It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
IIRC, there was a kerfuffle a few years ago when it was discovered that the meat produced by a slaughter house in New Zealand was Halal and the stuff exported to Muslim countries was labelled "Halal" and the rest of it was just sold as per normal. The justification was that it was easier to do the lot as Halal rather than some Halal and some not and then run the risk of getting them confused, although, cynically, I wonder how in the event of such a substitution one would find out.

I remember that. I was, and still am quite ignorant about the Muslim reasons for doing this, but it brought to mind the Maori practice of thanking Tane (God of the forest ) for animals caught there or Tangaroa (God of the Sea for kaimoana (seafood, including seaweed).

It is a worldview that acknowledges the interconnectedness of creation.

Huia

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!

Give me Irish food any day over continental haute cuisine!!!!!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I have no idea what "gammon" might, evidently dialect for some form of meat. ...

Gammon is a particular way of curing pork. It's very tasty. Even if it has a different name I'd be surprised if it or something similar doesn't exist everywhere that eats an omnivore diet.

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.

I presumed NP was jesting about never having heard of gammon [Hot and Hormonal]

. If the term has, indeed, never reached NP's part of the world, one has to ask what they do with their pineapples and to note that, presumably, the frog does not a-wooing go in that neck of the woods!

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

'Spect he thought you were just gammoning him.

Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on :

Anyone wishing to complain about public sector, mass catering providers using halal meat is 30-35 years too late.

Many years ago my brother briefly worked in an abbatoir as part of his training to be an Environmental Health Officer, and saw first-hand the minimal difference at a practical level between halal and non-halal. The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Can't speak for Canada, but in the two places in the US where I've lived, I doubt anyone but those who read old books knows what gammon is. It just isn't a part of our daily language. (I suspect we have the stuff but call it something different--probably just ham, or some particular flavor/treatment of ham.)

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

I think complaining about Halal certification makes a person a certifiable bigot.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Nope. Never heard of gammon. Though gamms is used for breasts. Rudely, along the lines of "boobs." I sort of get the jambon similarity. Backgammon is a game. I learned a new word.

That sort of cut is made into shishlicki here. Cut into bits, marinated to get the salt out, possibly boiled, then barbequed or fried. While we're talking of meat names, there's no such thing as Canadian bacon as a food. I think it means back bacon. That is AFAIK a USAian thing.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While we're talking of meat names, there's no such thing as Canadian bacon as a food. I think it means back bacon. That is AFAIK a USAian thing.

What the US calls Canadian Bacon is indeed made from pork loin (back) - usually just the loineye. It is sold pre-cooked and smoked.

What the UK calls gammon is a (usually unsmoked) pork leg that has been bacon-cured. It's sold uncooked. It's not too far away from a US "country ham" - perhaps a North Carolina salt-and-pepper ham comes closest.

Gammon can be cooked as a joint, or as steaks.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It has been current in english for the last six centuries, but does not appear to have reached your particular corner of the far north.
I presumed NP was jesting about never having heard of gammon . If the term has, indeed, never reached NP's part of the world, one has to ask what they do with their pineapples and to note that, presumably, the frog does not a-wooing go in that neck of the woods!

Gammon is not a word used her either, but I'd expect quite a few of us older people would have heard of it from reading.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.

Are halal and kosher compatible? Can you have an imam and a rabbi praying at the slaughterhouse to get both certifications, or is it either/or?

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though gamms is used for breasts. Rudely, along the lines of "boobs."

With one "m" it is a synonym for legs, especially a woman's, but I've never seen it applied to breasts.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
The biggest difference was a rota of local imams uttering a usually perfunctory and half-hearted prayer during halal slaughter.
Are halal and kosher compatible? Can you have an imam and a rabbi praying at the slaughterhouse to get both certifications, or is it either/or?

I remember reading about a College which had a dining hall to provide kosher food. It was shared between the Jews and Muslims because there were not enough of either to support their own kitchen. Apparently the two cuisines overlap enough that it's possible it work. I'm not sure how this effects those who see one of the two as idolatry.

I can't speak to the relative pain of slaughter, but I do know that a very large kosher Chinese restaurant in the Washington D.C. area was accused of substituting non Kosher ducks for Kosher ones because their Kosher supplier couldn't supply enough. Whatever the regulation, there's always the possibility of mutton dressed as lamb. [Smile]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Various:

--Gammon: Agree with LC about knowing the word from old books. Not sure I knew what it was, though, beyond meat. Haven't come across the term in everyday US life. If anyone uses it, I'm guessing it's either some particular ethnic enclave, or maybe a fussy, high-priced restaurant that wants to sound fancy.

--Gams/gamms: Never heard the breast definition. "Gams" shows up in American films from maybe the '30s/'40s, generally some combination of noire, big city, mystery, and romance. Used only for women's legs, unless as a joke.

--Halal and kosher: Earlier, I did a web search on "halal". Looked at the Wikipedia article, and also at a food site. Pretty much the same basics on both sites, and Wikipedia had much more detail. Sunni Muslims may eat kosher. And there was something about other peoples of the Book (Christians and Jews) being able to do the halal slaughter, if they recite a blessing and follow other rules.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

halal is kless cruel and tastes nicer.

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

Thirty years ago I visited the kill floor of a large Canadian meat packer as a member of the company who supplied said packer with plastic packaging material.

I think meat began to wane from my diet at that moment. It didn't happen overnight, but I think pork was the first thing to go. Then beef. Then lamb. Then chicken, then turkey. Fish and shellfish are still on the menu it remains to be seen for how long.

It took a decade and a half, and not over any particular principle, just because I noticed that meat makes me pass out. Like alcohol. I need a nap. I figured that anything that robs me of energy in digestion instead of giving me energy needs to be consumed in strict moderation.

When I hear an objection over the cruelty of one tradition's slaughter methods over another's, I can't really parse that objection in any rational sense based on what I saw that day.

There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.

It seems to me that we can't avoid destroying life in the process of maintaining our own. Even a cucumber is alive until you pluck it from the vine.

It seems to me that the issue isn't what you eat, it seems to me the real issue is what is your attitude towards the life that gave itself to sustain yours?

If Halal and Kosher traditions practice appreciation for this life, then they can't be worse than what I saw that day at Schneider's.

AFF

Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.

In what sense a "material benefit"?

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
There does seem to me to be some material benefit to blessing the animal before slaughter. And again before cooking and eating it.
In what sense a "material benefit"?

In the sense that a reverent and appreciative attitude towards the life of the thing I'm ingesting seems to make more of its energy available to my use, and less of my own energy is required of me to digest it.

Just my own observation.

If I am what I eat, then it seems to me to be not just a matter of practicality to assume a posture of humility and appreciation towards the life that sustains mine, and to the form of consciousness that contributes to the continuation of my own.

AFF

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

To the question about whether offering Halal meat is discriminating against Christians, let's change the terms a bit.

Is offering Kosher meat discriminating against Christians?

We have long seen the U symbol on our meats and think nothing of it.

It is called accommodation, not discrimination.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local (Irish, non-Halal) butcher sells mutton!

I don't much like it, though.

How far east of Greenwich? I prefer mutton to lamb for Irish stew and Lancashire hotpot. I haven't been able to get any since the brief period in which Crayford Sainsburys sold it alongside goat, which also disappeared.

[ 22. October 2016, 14:29: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.

In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.

In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.

I have eaten kosher and halal meat and I don't feel discriminated against. Is there something wrong with me?

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Mutton is not necessarily Halal. Halal also means that the animal was slaughtered by a Muslim butcher.

In that one sense, Halal does mean it discriminates against Christian butchers.
I have eaten kosher and halal meat and I don't feel discriminated against. Is there something wrong with me?

I think (the qualified) thing was about the suppliers not consumers. Hence the butcher.

You, a non Rabbi/Iman can't (IIUC) create Halal/Kosher meat, however much you want to. And therefore as the middle people bias towards needing these requirements, unnecessarily, you are losing out (I think it would be different if it were the end users being picky) and as such being discriminated against.

That said it is just the abattoir not the butcher or farmer. And even there, I think it's a multi person job, so there may be some vacancies.
And the whole topic of discrimination as such in my opinion gets very confusing [eta while still being important and very real]

[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]

[ 22. October 2016, 15:34: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:

* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. There is a form of pacificism within Christianity that is based on similar arguments.

To my knowledge, pacificism within Christianity as practiced institutionally is based not on the fallneness arguement, but on a careful reading of the gospels and the prophets. That is certainly the basis for its practice and/or doctrine as found within Anabaptist groups.

The fallenness discussion you mention sounds like something I've heard of in late 1800's systemic theology as practiced by individuals within Anglicanism, Presbyterianism and Methodism. It would be a personal systemic theology as against a doctrinal one.

I would be curious to know of any group who had a doctrinal statement of pacifism based solely on the fallenness of the world.

[ 22. October 2016, 15:42: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
<snip>
And the whole topic of discrimination as such in my opinion gets very confusing [eta while still being important and very real]

[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]

There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Og

Let me be clear, I am not saying that form does not exist but that it is not the only form and the form that seeks to be about the New Creation exists as well.

In other words, you have assumed a monolith where there is diversity. Just as vegetarianism may be adopted for a wide range of reasons. If you want me to list for vegetarianism then at present as well as the witness stated other reasons include:

animal welfare
distaste of the idea of eating animals
aesthetic discipline
social justice
dietary concerns
environmental concerns

Jengie

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Makes me wonder if ritual slaughter religions may hunt. How does one shoot a deer for food. FWIW, thanking the animal for giving itself up for food is part of some indigenous cultures. It's prayer.

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.

Again that's looking at the consumers.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
Again that's looking at the consumers.

No it flippin' doesn't. Jews and Muslims can buy from Christian butchers. Where is the discrimination?

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]

I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.

So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.

Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.

AFF

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is nothing to prevent Jews and Muslims from buying meat from a butcher who does not supply Kosher or Halal. If they want Kosher or Halal, sources exists. Seems reasonable to me.
Again that's looking at the consumers.
No it flippin' doesn't. Jews and Muslims can buy from Christian butchers. Where is the discrimination?

Jewish customer, Muslim customer, agnostic customer, pastafarian customer are all customers. They BUY. Both sets of people you listed as counter examples are in this set.

Christian butcher, Muslim butcher, Pastafarian Butcher, are suppliers, they SELL. The OP postulated them.

Tesco, Sainsbury's, Carrymore, are the middle men, they BUY from the supplier (in theory the Christian Butcher, the Jewish Butcher, the Muslim Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher) and SELL to the consumer (in theory the Christian customer, the Jewish customer, the Muslim customer, the ...).

However if Tesco just serve arbitrary meat they buy from (in theory the Christian Butcher, the Muslim Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher) but only sell to the Christian, agnostic, and pastafarian customers. Which is a bit unfair on the Muslim and Jewish customer, but there's ways round it (such as clear labeling) and they can always go elsewhere [at the moment]. Which would be what your second comment would have dealt with had it come up. And agree, there would be no intentional/unreasonable discrimination (at least probably, you could possibly consider the effects of food deserts and the like [so personally I'd want to do a bit more thinking before quite agreeing, but they weren't under discussion])

However, the other approach is for Tesco to buy Halah (or equiv Kosher), at which point they can sell to the Christian, Islamic, agnostic, and pastafarian customers.
Which your first comment says, that you would be happy to be a customer, which is the assumption they've made. This time, absolutely no discrimination against any of the customers. However the original point wasn't about the customer
However now they are not buying from the Christian Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher, etc..., but only from the Muslim Butcher.

That is, subject all the qualifications that were made from Gramps original post, and my attempts to clarify my understanding of it, The Christian Butcher (or rather the Non-Muslim Butcher) is being discriminated against.

I'm not sure how it works with direct customer/supplier contact, but in large influence over a nations suppliers..
And it clearly would be discrimination if even the corner shop only hired whites so they could serve to the Klan more easily.

Like I implied earlier, it's not exactly the most urgent case, and I guess the existence of Hooter's shows even corporations can discriminate legally. And you've made a bit of a mountain of a molehill of a very minor point, it really wouldn't be something that fussed me, if you hadn't been turning the wrong cards over.

[ 22. October 2016, 17:30: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.

That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?

We were at cross purposes. It's not like I've not been the other side before.
Cage wasn't rattled, but by that point struggling.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Pardon me. I clearly rattled the wrong cage.
That's as sweet a dodge as we've seen here in a long time. Jay-Emm produced a very thoughtful, well-reasoned response using lots of examples. And this is the best you can come up with?
We were at cross purposes. It's not like I've not been the other side before.
Cage wasn't rattled, but by that point struggling.

Jay-Emm, you were quite right.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
However, the other approach is for Tesco to buy Halah (or equiv Kosher), at which point they can sell to the Christian, Islamic, agnostic, and pastafarian customers.
Which your first comment says, that you would be happy to be a customer, which is the assumption they've made. This time, absolutely no discrimination against any of the customers. However the original point wasn't about the customer
However now they are not buying from the Christian Butcher, the Pastafarian Butcher, etc..., but only from the Muslim Butcher.

That is, subject all the qualifications that were made from Gramps original post, and my attempts to clarify my understanding of it, The Christian Butcher (or rather the Non-Muslim Butcher) is being discriminated against.

That's not discrimination, or at least not in the negative sense that you're implying. There's no requirement for supermarkets to source their produce from a variety of suppliers - they are free to choose the best supplier for their business needs. If they can sell meat from one supplier to anyone but from another supplier only to some people then of course they're going to choose the former.

Of course, anyone who feels strongly about the matter is free to buy their meat from any butcher that meets their standards. And if enough of them do so then it might even change the business decision described at the end of the previous paragraph.

The ongoing popularity of bacon suggests that non-halal/kosher butchers aren't going to disappear any time soon.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I would like to have the choice. Clear labelling would help, but I see that calls for the government to discuss this have had nowhere near enough support for it to be considered an important issue.

Does this indicate fear - perhaps of being accused of racism or fanaticism - or simply a lack of interest?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

My money's on lack of interest. Most people just don't care how their meat is killed.

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would like to have the choice. Clear labelling would help, but I see that calls for the government to discuss this have had nowhere near enough support for it to be considered an important issue.

Does this indicate fear - perhaps of being accused of racism or fanaticism - or simply a lack of interest?

To be honest, I suspect the real answer is that people are not terribly concerned about animal welfare. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Halal butchery it's hardly the only bad thing that happens to animals in the food chain.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Re labelling: bottles of wine come variously embroidered with the level of alcohol, presence of sulphites, recommended daily intakes, warnings against ingesting while pregnant or operating heavy machinery, and various other informational and hortatory tidbits. Have any of them ever stayed my hand from a glass? Not really.

I'm not against such labelling: but, like previous posters, I suspect more people are influenced by appetite than by health or conscience.

[ 24. October 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
... The rule if you wish to satisfy all religious groups is vegetarian and preferably vegan. The vegan is not simply for Rastafarians but has a long history of adoption by a minority of Christians within Protestantism*.

Jengie

* for those not aware of it, it is a deliberate act of witnessing to the Kingdom by adopting an aspect of it within current life. In this case the belief that the eating the produce of animals is not the way God intended the world to be, but is part of the fallenness of creation. ...

Jengie, I appreciate it's some days ago now, but coming back to this, I find it quite strange.

It seems to negate what I would regard as the much more fundamental point that Jesus made at Mk 7:19 that all foods are clean. So we can neither be saved nor make ourselves either more holy or less so by eating some foods or cutting some other foods out of our diet.

Most Christians are so used to this that they no longer appreciate how revolutionary a step that is in the history of world religions.

I am very suspicious that those sort of ideas are starting to creep back into public consciousness when I hear some of the arguments some vegetarians and vegans put forward for their decisions. Under modern conditions, I would say that it is quite an important Christian witness to say that whatever else the advocates of any permanent diet may claim for it, it does not, and cannot, make its adherents morally, ethically or spiritually better.

In addition to not being paraded in front of other people, though fasting is commended, it also normally supposed to be temporary.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My money's on lack of interest. Most people just don't care how their meat is killed.

The parallel argument is made in North America about GMO foods. The industry says people don't care if it is GMO. However, there is strong opinion (is there any data?) that if labelled, people choose non-GMO.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Let me just say, when I posted that Halal implies that the animal was butchered by a Muslim butcher and then made the somewhat snarky--but misinterpreted--comment that this is discrimination, I was referring to the original post which asked if using Halal was discriminatory .

In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.

The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.

Myself, I also prefer grass fed animals.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I seem to remember some heated statements (don't know where, but believe the source was American - not that that is a criticism of a nation, merely an attempt to identify the source) that being vegetarian was an indicator of definitely not being a Christian. The two were mutually exclusive.

Since the heated statements - possibly on the dead BBC boards - were by people associated with creationism and other dead horsey subjects, I was never inclined to take them as Gospel.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Let me just say, when I posted that Halal implies that the animal was butchered by a Muslim butcher and then made the somewhat snarky--but misinterpreted--comment that this is discrimination, I was referring to the original post which asked if using Halal was discriminatory .

In the UK Halal and Kosher have very specific meanings about who is involved in the kill and how they've done it.

quote:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.

Well I think the problem here is this: it depends. When I had this discussion with a group of British Muslims ranging from the very observant to the very secular, I understandably got a range of answers.

At one extreme someone said that they wouldn't buy meat from a supermarket because they won't eat pre-stunned meat. Others said that they'd automatically choose Halal but that if it wasn't available then Kosher was also perfectly acceptable. Others said that they weren't bothered at all.

And, I suppose, whilst I can see that some people who eat meat also happen to have an ethical or religious view against Halal or Kosher meat, those people seem to be in a small minority. So it feels like a university or producer in an area with a lot of Muslims and a lot of people who aren't bothered may well chose to only sell Halal. I note, for example, that many kebab shops seem to sell exclusively Halal meat.

Of course, that's not going to be good enough for some Christians and presumably some observant Jews. Although one might think that the latter are going to have an issue eating in any establishment that only has one kitchen.

So I suppose it comes down to buyer beware - given that the majority aren't bothered, that a significant minority are interested in buying Halal and only a small minority want to avoid it, then in some ways it feels a bit unreasonable to cater for them.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.

The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.

That can't be right. It is important that the animal wasn't stunned as part of the slaughter.

[ 24. October 2016, 19:08: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In truth most observant Muslims I know of would not have any problems if the animal was butchered by a Christian or a Jew since they would also be people of the Book.

The more important aspect is that the animal be grass fed and not ingest any alcoholic product.

That can't be right. It is important that the animal wasn't stunned as part of the slaughter.

That is debated within the Islamic world. The important thing is that the method of stunning not kill the animal. For this reason, some groups will prohibit stunning. It is not important that the animal suffer, only that it not die before exsanguination.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.

So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.

Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.

AFF

Are you sure about the scales. Fish like salmon are OK, and salmon has scales. Or maybe I misunderstand here. Does "halachah" mean that it's allowed, as salmon have both scales and fins?

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Yes, "halachah" means it is allowed. "Tref" means it is not allowed.

[ 25. October 2016, 21:55: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:

quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:

quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

[While on the topic, how does sea food work?]
I hung out with the ChaBaD Chassidim for about 5 years. If I recall correctly, if it has scales and fins, it's halachah.

So shellfish and eels are right out. So are catfish.

Three of my favorites right there. I guess it was just another reason why I could never have made an Orthodox conversion.

AFF
Are you sure about the scales. Fish like salmon are OK, and salmon has scales. Or maybe I misunderstand here. Does "halachah" mean that it's allowed, as salmon have both scales and fins?

It was more the ritual elements I was wondering at. At the time was vaguely wondering if you could have something that was simultaneously fully Kosher, fully Halal and fully secular in a more positive way than just having vegetables.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I have a friend whose brother works at one of the local (Ottawa) supermarket chains as a butcher, and he informs us that there are many non-religious customers who prefer to buy kosher and halal meat as they believe that the animals are raised and processed in a more humane manner--he is not certain that they are really well-versed in the rules of halalit and kashruth, but says that this belief is widespread through Canada as well as the US.

I recall reading in the NY Times that many of the workers in midwestern (US) abbatoirs are Muslim, primarily as these are jobs which newly-arrived immigrants take.

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