Ship of Fools: Belief

Thread: Belief Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :

Sorry to be a bit crude, but I'm interested in the really basic stuff that underlies Christian belief. I wonder what you all think about the afterlife and creation. Things like that.

It's my experience that most longstanding Christians have stopped talking about all this, presumably because their views are so settled, and they've moved on to details like the nature of the church they prefer, which part of the Bible they find most inspiring, how they should live as a Christian on a day-to-day basis, how supportive the church community is, etc. I understand all that, but I'm the idiot who wants to ask questions like: is death the end? Did God create all this? Is it accurate to think of God as a being, a person?

I'd be grateful for your thoughts on this. You might be thinking 'Go and do the Alpha course', but I was brought up and educated as a Catholic so it's not so much that I need telling what the Bible is and who Jesus was...it's just that, after 20 years of agnosticism, I'm drawn back to the church, but I'm interested in these really basic questions that don't seem to get discussed, even on a forum like this.

I hope I'm posting this in the right forum - I've tried to work out the best place for this kind of thing.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
Sorry to be a bit crude, but I'm interested in the really basic stuff that underlies Christian belief. I wonder what you all think about the afterlife and creation.

I think that in order to talk about the afterlife and creation at all you have to push at the limits of what you can meaningfully say and know.

So creation: that there is something rather than nothing is because God brings the world into being and loves it. That does not rule out or even compete with any scientific explanations of how some of that something brought about or combined and evolved into the rest of that something.

Afterlife: shall not the judge of all the earth do right? I trust there is one; if there is one I believe it must look more like having a body than not having a body; otherwise I have no idea.

Sorry if that's vague, but I think more precision is neither possible nor much desirable.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Welcome to the Ship HarryLime!

You are likely to get a lot of answers, all different, as people's theological outlooks vary.

My take:

The two creation stories in Genesis 1 and 2 show us that people's experiences of God are both of the God 'out there' and the God who walks alongside us, and that people have appreciated that God is the creator of the Universe who loves us since dot.

God's eternal kingdom of love is where we came from and where we are destined for, as well as where we are (except that we can't easily perceive it in our human form and with so much corruption around us).

Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :

Thanks for the initial answers. Just the kind of thing I was interested to read. More would be welcome from anyone who's prepared to give me their viewpoint!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

HarryLime

Be aware that this is a fairly tolerant, moderate website, so emphasising aspects of the Christian belief as theologically indispensable (especially those that hint at a sort of conservatism) could well lead to objections. IOW, you're likely to be told that the Bible should be approached in a more subtle, layered way than that.

On a practical level, I think one reason why (tolerant, moderate) Christians don't discuss the afterlife very much is that it's a topic bound to highlight division rather than unity.

The other (probably related) reason, according to the sociologists, is that as Western Christians have become more middle class, their interest in the afterlife has declined. Their lives are usually comfortable enough here on earth so they're not as psychologically compelled to focus on the afterlife as they might once have been.

On a broader level it's also been said that a process of 'internal secularisation' has occurred within the churches, quietly altering the ways in which members interpret the liturgies that they utter. This doesn't necessarily mean that individuals don't believe in the afterlife (or any others aspects of doctrine that they utter or sing about) but that they're free not to do so, or to do so differently from others. The process has become individualised. There's an implicit freedom at the heart of most mainstream (Protestant) denominations now.

The RCC is somewhat different, but it's followed in the Protestant direction.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

These are my views, and don't necessarily reflect anyone elses.

Creation: God created the world. He did this in the way that cosmologists say he did, but it was God who was responsible for it. The writings we have are trying to explain why he did it, not what he actually did. They are myth in the true sense - stories that are true in that they reflect the experience of people trying to interpret the truth they know.

The afterlife: There is insufficient evidence in the Bible to tell us anything about the afterlife. However, there is a spiritual reality that is not empirically demonstrable. Life is more than what we see, it is what we do, it is how we relate.

The Bible: Gods word. Not dictated, but the stories of people trying to understand who God is. Through these we can understand how we can experience God. Taking English translations as literal truth is ridiculous. Using them in terms we would have expected them to be written today is ridiculous. We need to read them as they are, and use them to help us engage with God.

Hope this helps.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

For me it all begins with Jesus. I find the evidence for his life death and resurrection to be compelling, albeit not conclusive.

It is through the lens of him that I view the scriptures which to me paint a picture of a world and humankind created to be good, but in fact flawed. This chimes in with my experience.

Jesus, then, offers a complete renewal of life, and a promise of its fulfilment when God's rule is fully realised. In his resurrection I find an assurance that this visible tangible life is not the whole of reality, but there is some greater fulfilment beyond it. This is not really describable in plain words but only alluded to or described metaphorically in the Bible.

His call on me is to be a follower in his way, to be a disciple of him, and to seek as far as I am able to give substance to God's rule in the world.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

HarryLime. All of the above. Especially BroJames' "For me it all begins with Jesus". Begins and ends, eternal, infinite creation and afterlife (both), are all taken care of, are so, because of the Incarnation of a God person.

Now what? Ask and let Him in: be incarnational.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HarryLime:
Sorry to be a bit crude, but I'm interested in the really basic stuff that underlies Christian belief. I wonder what you all think about the afterlife and creation. Things like that.

It's my experience that most longstanding Christians have stopped talking about all this, presumably because their views are so settled, and they've moved on to details like the nature of the church they prefer, which part of the Bible they find most inspiring, how they should live as a Christian on a day-to-day basis, how supportive the church community is, etc. I understand all that, but I'm the idiot who wants to ask questions like: is death the end? Did God create all this? Is it accurate to think of God as a being, a person?

As a short summary of my take on this, I'd say, yes, the most accurate possible way for us to think of God is as a person who created all this so that we can freely choose how to use the life we receive here and now in preparation for our eternal life that will continue immediately after we die.

In particular, I am a Christian because I believe that God made himself manifest to us as Jesus Christ in order to show us the way back to salvation and peace, without intruding on our freedom to choose how we want to respond. He came to break the power of evil without destroying those of us (and those parts of each of us) who embrace it.

In my denomination, we talk about these kinds of things frequently because we see them as all being closely connected to each other. How we try to live as Christians in our day-to-day life now, as part of a community, will ultimately determine who we become in the next life and how we want relate to God and to every one around us. If we decide we want those relationships to be based on love and charity, then we will experience them as heaven, surrounded by others who have made a similar choice. If not, we will experience them as hell, surrounded by others who have made a similar choice. Of course, God would much prefer that we choose the former and does everything short of violating our freedom in order to convince us to do so.

How about you? What answers to the questions you raise appeal to you?

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

To be honest, when I think about the afterlife, I sort of cringe...I'd rather stop existing at some point, but my faith says that's not what's going to happen. So that's when I acknowledge it's probably my depressive illness that makes me want to end at some point, and dust off the practice of trusting God...if God promises something to God's people, I have to trust it will be desirable. Beyond that, I remain agnostic. I think a lot of damage is done to the faith by people making strong claims they have no business making.

Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've learned a lot from them.

To answer H. Wyatt's question, my own hunches on this are: that the universe is more likely to have a Creator than to have happened by accident; humans instinctively feel that there is a kind of personality in the universe that is bigger than us; and it also instinctively feels wrong to us that, when a human dies, they simply cease to exist and disappear for ever. We instinctively feel that there's a soul within us, that we are more than the skin and bone that we reside in.

This is all cliche, I know, but I think these fundamental questions have to underpin religion if it is to be meaningful.

I'm drawn to Christianty for all sorts of reasons. Life is quite good for me lately, and I feel grateful. I notice that many Christians I know are lovely people whose company I really enjoy. I love churches as buildings, I love the church's calendar and the shape it gives to the year, I love the ritual. A really good priest I think is priceless. Unfortunately they seem to be in a minority, but a wise, loving, approachable priest who's really committed to the role is a great asset to a community. I also think that good and evil are valuable concepts that too many of us neglect. Christianity is right to focus on them.

My family is resolutely secular and I sneak off when I can to attend Mass without them knowing. Sometimes I take a day off work, unknown to them, and drive to a town where I don't know anyone just to go to a service. This is daft, I know, but when I've mooted the idea of attending church my family have reacted as if I've annouced that I'm a lunatic. But I like Christianity. I like the peacefulness of the church and the friendliness of the congregation and the complete shift of perspective from our busy lives.

But I want something real underpinning it all or it's just a pleasant self-help tool.

[ 12. November 2016, 21:18: Message edited by: HarryLime ]

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
But I want something real underpinning it all or it's just a pleasant self-help tool.

Hey Harry

For me, I'm not good enough to make it work as a self-help tool. When I pray, it very often (though not always) seems real and sometimes I am saved from myself - especially anger is turned off, which is something I struggle with and which I'm not much good at dealing with on my own. This lasts for a little while, then I have to remember to pray again...

Your 'guilty secret' of church going really made me smile, and you've got a good grasp of church leaders already. Try asking Christians you know why they think it's real, and see if you think their answers are boilerplate (which may happen quite a bit, and may just mean the person you are asking is embarrassed by how flaky their own faith feels to them) or real and personal?

Good luck, whatever happens.

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