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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Collective Depression
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
I wonder if anyone has worked with the concept of Collective Depression, in regards to ministers and congregations? I have in mind a mutually reinforcing contagious condition of low mood and low expectations: a corporate analogue of Beck's cognitive theory of depression in individuals. It's likely to be characterised by contagious despondency, loss of agency, negative automatic thoughts and safety behaviours.
I can't find much relevant in the literature of group dynamics in churches, yet reckon it may be more common than we might think. How might insights from the individual model be transposed into the collective?
Asking for a friend ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I've only got anecdotal stuff at this stage. In Norfolk, working in rural parishes has been becoming harder for some time for both paid ministers and NSMs. The sense of walking up a down escalator can be reinforced every Sunday by ministering in large churches with mere handfuls of increasingly elderly parishioners. There is a wearing down effect which is entirely understandable, and leads to folks asking the question 'what am I doing?'. There are exceptions of course, but if you find yourself in this kind of environment, and various initiatives have made little or no difference, it can be hard to keep going.
I do know some really good folks who are in, or have been, in these situations and have shared their pain and frustration. How collective it is, I'm not sure.
I figure there must be statistical information about trends; people becoming ill, or resigning, or retiring early etc. I haven't heard about any in depth studies of underlying causes and remedies.
But I would be surprised if the 'human resources' factors aren't matters of concern for a number of bishops. Others may know a lot more than me.
[ 01. November 2016, 07:33: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I don't think I have anything of great insight to add, Qoheleth, beyond what you and Barnabas62 have just said. I'll ask my eldest daughter who is a hospital psych. in case she has anything to add.
But a quick google suggests it's a fairly predictable human sort of thing rather than some defined pathology. Its opposite (unrealistic elation and optimism) also exists of course.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Googlebooks brings up a number of textual references to collective depression in churches. I don't think these are clinical analyses, but ways of naming the inertia and sense of powerlessness that overcome congregations. The condition appears to be mostly due to their decline and sense of irrelevance in the wider the culture, but there appear to be other reasons also.
Other texts refer to studies of congregations and denominations with a relatively high tendency of attracting clinically depressed individuals, or of the connections between mental health and religious faith. The OP is asking about something different from this, but there may be some overlap.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Thanks for contributions so far, very helpful.
My friend ( ) is a congregant observing the decline into a dysfunctional dynamic between leader and led. I'm convinced that Beck et al/CBT etc could have something to offer to the depressed 'common mind', if I could frame it appropriately.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I'd never thought about that.
I live in a city that's been economically depressed for a long time now, and while our people are tough and resilient, there does tend to be a bit of a "we can't have nice things" outlook that pops up in various places. Including in churches, I think. So maybe in some cases, people are tracking it into the church like mud?
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Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
In "Why Liberal churches are growing", Martyn Percy quotes from James Hopewell's study of a (fictional) "northern diocese" where deprivation and struggle are prevalent. What has developed is a self-perpetuating shared narrative in which "tragic" accounts of ministry are accepted by the clergy but stories of success are challenged as being "inauthentic". The diocesan Mission Statement stresses the need to identify with "the pain of the world" but seems to consciously reject all suggestions of the Church being an agent of transformation. Indeed, a seminar on theme of "Regeneration" was cancelled on the grounds that it was "too contentious".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In "Why Liberal churches are growing", Martyn Percy quotes from James Hopewell's study of a (fictional) "northern diocese" where deprivation and struggle are prevalent. What has developed is a self-perpetuating shared narrative in which "tragic" accounts of ministry are accepted by the clergy but stories of success are challenged as being "inauthentic". The diocesan Mission Statement stresses the need to identify with "the pain of the world" but seems to consciously reject all suggestions of the Church being an agent of transformation. Indeed, a seminar on theme of "Regeneration" was cancelled on the grounds that it was "too contentious".
I just found that chapter on Google and it's horribly accurate. It might not just be "collective depression" although I don't doubt that exists. Some of it comes down to limited expectations. Not only, “We can’t have nice things” but “We can’t do that because …”. Sometimes when you look at what’s being done where, the only difference between those doing it and those not is self-belief and a willingness to give something a go.
Christians are often particularly bad at this. “Well, we tried that 20 years ago and it didn’t work / caused a terrible row …” Pointing out that’s not a valid reason as, apart from the speaker, everyone else involved is long gone gets you a kick from the person leading the Church meeting for some weird reason.
Tubbs
PS Got your PM, thank you. Have been away so will reply shortly
[ 02. November 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Christians are often particularly bad at this. “Well, we tried that 20 years ago and it didn’t work / caused a terrible row …” Pointing out that’s not a valid reason as, apart from the speaker, everyone else involved is long gone gets you a kick from the person leading the Church meeting for some weird reason.
I'd swear that you were a member of my PCC, except for the fact that far from kicking you I'd be backing you up!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Errr...so what do you do when you've seen your church piss through large lumps of the denomination's money for not much effect, if you sincerely think that the next time someone suggests something that daft, it _is_ as much of a waste as last time?
I don't think you _have_ to be depressed or stuck in some mindset of low expectations to observe that people can be right buggers with other people's money.
Our church is now almost broke and the denom is less inclined to sub us out. I hope it will be good for us, and may concentrate our minds.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Christians are often particularly bad at this. “Well, we tried that 20 years ago and it didn’t work / caused a terrible row …” Pointing out that’s not a valid reason as, apart from the speaker, everyone else involved is long gone gets you a kick from the person leading the Church meeting for some weird reason.
I'd swear that you were a member of my PCC, except for the fact that far from kicking you I'd be backing you up!
Given the age of the congregation, I’m pointing out that most of the trouble makers are no longer with us because they’re dead … This is not particularly tactful!
Mark in Manchester, I don’t know about that one … As Baptist churches tend to be self-supporting it isn’t a big issue. If you’ve got the money, you can spend it how you want if the meeting agrees.
External grants for smaller churches with fewer resources are limited and have to be used for specific purposes – like Minister’s stipends. They’re also annual our region and getting one means jumping through many hoops.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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