Ship of Fools: Ethical Dilemma; Banks and social justice

Thread: Ethical Dilemma; Banks and social justice Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

My bank is an investor in the proposed pipeline in North Dakota (Standing Rock reservation), see here for article

Standing Rock

For personal reasons, I don't feel that I can change banks, but on the other hand, I feel conflicted between the demands of the gospel, which interpreted in a lefty social justice way, requires steadfast opposition to all that opposes life and goodness, and my own personal situation. This is hard. Any advice?

[ 04. November 2016, 16:54: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

You should write/email them, and express your concerns. If many of their customers did this, they might feel obliged to change their ways.

For max impact, and if you incline to, I'd send a copy of your letter to your local newspaper/TV/radio outlet, or post it on their/your Facebook/Twitter. The power of social media is great; why not employ it? For all you know thousands of their customers feel the way you do, or know nothing of the issue but will be horrified to learn of it.

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :

Which is more important to you:
A) That they do (in your view) the "right" thing.
B) The appeasement of your conscience.

If A, then you've potentially got your work cut out, as one person alone is unlikely to effect change. You'd need to set up a campaign and get others to join you. It must be backed up with a co-ordinated nonviolent threat to their business; e.g. the withdrawal of custom/boycott, public shaming.

If B, then you can look elsewhere, but no one's really going to pay too much attention as to your reasons for leaving.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Back when I was a student I banked with Barclays basically because my parents did. There was a lot of fuss among Student Union types at the time about boycotting Barclays because they had significant investmants in apartheid South Africa.

My feeling was that probably all the high street banks of the time did, Barclays were just being more upfront about it.

I tend to reason along the lines of Paul talking about us not having to leave the world. If you have any money at all and want to keep it wholly away from absolutely anything unethical, I'm not sure how achievable that is. You have to pick your battles carefully.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I was reading yesterday about "CSR" (corporate social responsibility), and how it is that major corps, banks, etc will tout themselves in adverts as contributing positively to various social "goods" even when their corporate behaviour is bad.

I think it boils down to the general un-ethicality and amorality of banks, corporations etc. I don't know the bank, but I'll spin on the bank I know does clean water funding and related feel-good advertising in Canada. Consider the scene: The bank execs meet and pick a social or environmental issue with a good "return on investment" via advertising; their ad dept has done the research. They think "we could spend $15 million sponsoring vaccinations in India, drilling wells in Africa, or promote a clean natural water program in Canada". With a plan to spend $30 million plugging whatever they fund, with all $45 million a write-off for tax purposes. They decide the "clean water project" produces better advertising copy and the research show it has better imagery and connects better with advertising target audiences. So "clean natural water" it is! Yay! They see nothing inconsistent with this initiative and investing in a water threatening pipeline. Both are about the profitability of the bank.

I've had personal and business accounts with 4 major banks over the years I've been in business, finally settling on a credit union, because they don't do crazy shit like this. It doesn't bother the banks at all, even if you're a high net worth customer.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I will say, that as a relatively wealthy person and having the personality that understands money as my refugee heritage promotes, that it is easier for me to switch banks, because the banks like us, and we don't pay any penalties ourselves.

Haven't always had a good financial position. At one point in the 1970s, we ended up leaving a mortgage at a bank we'd taken all of our money from. It cost us in a higher interest rate. But it is about all you can do. The point is living with yourself and feeling okay, sleeping at night.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I like Brenda's ideas as they have the potential of making a bigger impact than just quietly closing your own account.

I'm not sure how credit unions work in your country, but in the U.S. I tend to think they serve the member better than the bank does its customer and you would definitely have more say in all its policies and investments.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Is your bank actually investing in this project, with a stake and a share in the profits, or is it simply extending credit facilities to it on a fairly substantial scale? If the latter, would that be any different from a firm of lawyers acting for clients, some of whom are dodgier than others? Or, for that matter, a doctor treating a loan shark for haemorrhoids?

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is your bank actually investing in this project, with a stake and a share in the profits, or is it simply extending credit facilities to it on a fairly substantial scale? If the latter, would that be any different from a firm of lawyers acting for clients, some of whom are dodgier than others? Or, for that matter, a doctor treating a loan shark for haemorrhoids?

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/michael-stewart/2016/10/canadian-banks-are-helping-bankroll-dakota-access-pipeline

According to this article, TD Securities (my bank is TD) is directly financing the project to the tune of $365 million.

Someone posted in a previous post about the good that a bank may do. TD is often praised for being very gay-positive, it has been the corporate sponsor for the Pride parades in both Toronto and Vancouver for about a decade.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I will tell you that banks are exquisitely sensitive to their appearance in the community at large, and do a good deal to build and maintain their benevolent image. A gentle letter pointing out your concerns might well have a good effect. Tip: Make it a paper letter; email is always less effective.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

It can change nothing at all. But you'll get a nice letter back.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

The problem with walking away from your bank in Canada is that there are a very limited number of other banks to go to. RBC and ScotiaBank are also financing that pipeline.

The fossil fuel industry is in the desperate situation of having to develop and sell as much product as quickly as possible, because they know the end is near - either they'll have to leave it in the ground, or stop burning* it, or pay carbon taxes. When that happens, all of us, including the Big Five, will have to reconsider our investment strategies. <cough>stranded assets<cough>

The Canadian banking industry has very few players and they are federally regulated. Ergo, I think there's probably more leverage in government policy than consumer activism in this sector.

*fossil fuels have many other important uses beyond internal combustion

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

I'm not sure how credit unions work in your country, but in the U.S. I tend to think they serve the member better than the bank does its customer and you would definitely have more say in all its policies and investments.

But surely, if you deposit money in a credit union, you are still indirectly depositing money in whatever bank the credit union uses?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
But surely, if you deposit money in a credit union, you are still indirectly depositing money in whatever bank the credit union uses?

Not sure I understand this - is a credit union not, functionally, a bank? A small, member-owned, not-for-profit bank?

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Well, it may depend on size and country, but when I volunteered for a credit union, if a member paid us a cheque or cash or an electronic transfer, that money went into the account that the credit union had at the Co-op*, and any withdrawals or loan disbursements were paid out of the credit union's account at the Co-op. The accounts that people had at the credit union were, in effect, instructions on our bookkeeping system about how much we expected them to pay us every week and/or how much they were entitled to draw from us at any time.

I understand that credit unions are bigger in the US than the UK so there may be credit unions that run their own banking facilities, but in the UK there's no guarantee of it.

* I.e. the Co-operative Bank. Supposedly more ethical than other banks (and with an innovative approach to offering opportunities to addicts [Razz]

) but still basically a bank.

Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on :

Not something to do overnight, but one aspect of Islam I definitely like is the idea of 'interest-free banking' as opposed to Western capitalism.

As I understand it some Muslim banks are basically working on a basis which is actually interest but they play word games to make what they do acceptable to religious leaders.

Others however try quite seriously to observe an 'interest-free' policy. What this basically means is that, yes, you're receiving a financial service and you have to pay a fair price for it, but that price isn't calculated just as an interest percentage but a way more directly related to the service offered/received.

When it comes to investment, the bank doesn't 'loan at interest' which they then continue to claim even if the business goes bottom-up; it is more that they 'co-invest' and accept either loss or profit depending on the fate of the business. That also goes for how account-holders benefit, sharing the bank's profits.

That's just an outline, but Shipmates might like to investigate further how this works. One of my sources on this was a book I found in my local library by a bloke working in an American Muslim Bank - I think the bank is the "Bank of Whittier". I'll try and dig the book out again and let you know more details....

I'm in no hurry to give my business to a Muslim bank - but if a Christian equivalent existed in the UK, I think I'd go for it.

An amusing sidelight - as a training film which they see as encouraging the right kind of social justice attitude, the Whittier bank uses a famous Hollywood movie - "It's A Wonderful Life"!! That's the one with James Stewart as a local banker....

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

Banks here are starting to get to the point of interest free banking. The trouble is they are only doing it for savings accounts.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

I'm not sure how credit unions work in your country, but in the U.S. I tend to think they serve the member better than the bank does its customer and you would definitely have more say in all its policies and investments.
But surely, if you deposit money in a credit union, you are still indirectly depositing money in whatever bank the credit union uses?

No. Credit Unions in Canada clear through the Credit Union Central in their province. The provincial centrals (some provinces are merged) are the ones who clear payments with the chartered banks.

For historical reasons that are deeply unedifying and dreadfully boring, banks in Canada are regulated nationally by the federal government while credit unions are provincially chartered, though that is changing.

Credit Union = Building Society, for those who live in the Old Sod.

Though credit unions have a special place in Québec, the Desjardins movement is large there. The process of choosing a chairman is rather like choosing a pope: there's a conclave, a small group of 200 electors and a lot of whispering.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

Ah, fair enough. Credit unions over here are distinct from building societies. They are a fairly new thing and IME tend to specialise in micro-finance for poor people.

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
* I.e. the Co-operative Bank. Supposedly more ethical than other banks (and with an innovative approach to offering opportunities to addicts ) but still basically a bank.

Yes, I've been with the Co-op Bank for many years. It teetered on the brink of collapse a few years ago, but seems to have made a reasonably good recovery.

It also gave us the unforgettable Paul Flowers, aka "The Crystal Methodist"!

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

That comic-tragic figure was a gift-of-a-smokescreen to the management who trousered a lot of money and left when the (healthy) Coop was merged with the (f*cked, but hidden f*cked) Britannia Building Society. To the point where it seems to me he might even have been picked for the job.

But anyway - Christians are not utilitarians, so who cares if moving your account has zero impact? If you feel it's the right thing to do, do it, for the peace of your conscience, the honour of your heavenly father, by the conviction of the holy spirit - however you want to think about it.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

I'm in no hurry to give my business to a Muslim bank - but if a Christian equivalent existed in the UK, I think I'd go for it.

Well, of course there is the Reliance Bank owned by the Salvation Army. I'm not sure whether they invest in anything unpleasant, but it doesn't seem very likely.

quote:
An amusing sidelight - as a training film which they see as encouraging the right kind of social justice attitude, the Whittier bank uses a famous Hollywood movie - "It's A Wonderful Life"!! That's the one with James Stewart as a local banker....

Oh Steve Langton, you get right up my nose and then you post something like that.

It's a Wonderful Life is my favourite film, it makes me cry every time.

[ 11. November 2016, 09:26: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

But anyway - Christians are not utilitarians, so who cares if moving your account has zero impact? If you feel it's the right thing to do, do it, for the peace of your conscience, the honour of your heavenly father, by the conviction of the holy spirit - however you want to think about it.

Many years ago I made it very clear to the Lloyds Bank manager why I was leaving his bank and made him write me a cheque for some piffling amount as he closed the account.

About a decade later the Co-op Bank was left with no doubt what I thought of their sell-off end effective demutualisation (yes, I know they weren't a mutual, yabber yabber).

Did it make no difference? I don't know. Am I perfectly happy with my banking options today? No, I am conflicted as with many other aspects of my life. But I'd rather believe that when I'm made aware of issues that I can do something about that I do them rather than thinking that I can't and don't.

I appreciate that that might be a mirage. I appreciate that the other things I don't do in my life might well add up to be more significant than the things I do do.

But I'd rather do something than nothing. And I'd rather be encouraged to do more than discouraged to do anything.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

To my mind there is a problem in deciding what constitutes an ethical investment and what does not.

I can understand why one who doesn't smoke and regards investment in the promotion of tobacco as reprehensible; I can understand why a teetotaller ought not to invest in alcohol products and their promotion; and I can understand why a pacifist ought to oppose investment in the arms industry.

The problem I have with opponents of investment in oil and gas is that most of them are not prepared to live their lives carbon-free. Furthermore, opponents of oil and gas are often opponents of nuclear energy, currently the best short-term alternative. I can respect carbon-disinvestors if they are to eschew energy not derived from renewables, otherwise their moral high-ground is pretty suspect. Furthermore, alternatives to carbon fuels are expensive and bear heavily on the poor. In other words opposition to the exploitation of oil and gas can only be justified when opponents are prepared to deny themselves the benefits and, in my opinion, when affordable alternatives have been developed, or, in the meantime, tolerate economies using far less energy than they do now. Maybe the Inuits and Kalahari Bush-men have cracked it.

Don't get get me wrong, I'm not a climate-change denier, and favour the precautionary principle in these matters. It's just that I'm pretty pessimistic about the extent of human virtue when faced with narrow self-interest and hypocrisy.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

Since most savings accounts pay out sod all these days, folks with a little in hand that they are unable to give away might consider Shared Interest and Triodos Bank . I'm a happy customer of both - no other link.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:

I'm in no hurry to give my business to a Muslim bank - but if a Christian equivalent existed in the UK, I think I'd go for it.
Well, of course there is the Reliance Bank owned by the Salvation Army. I'm not sure whether they invest in anything unpleasant, but it doesn't seem very likely.

quote:
An amusing sidelight - as a training film which they see as encouraging the right kind of social justice attitude, the Whittier bank uses a famous Hollywood movibe - "It's A Wonderful Life"!! That's the one with James Stewart as a local banker....
Oh Steve Langton, you get right up my nose and then you post something like that.

It's a Wonderful Life is my favourite film, it makes me cry every time.

You do know that "It's a Wonderful Life" is essentially a lie, don't you? In 1945 banks in the US were insured via the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation against default. Bank runs were a thing of history, and had been since 1934.

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
You do know that "It's a Wonderful Life" is essentially a lie, don't you? In 1945 banks in the US were insured via the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation against default. Bank runs were a thing of history, and had been since 1934.

Ah, history! Why, I remember a time back in ought-seven ...

quote:
Anxious customers jammed the phone lines and website of Countrywide Bank and crowded its branch offices to pull out their savings because of concerns about the financial problems of the mortgage lender that owns the bank.

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