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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Last night, I heard some disturbing news. My thirteen year old granddaughter, Kate, was taunted at school. She is part Filipino. One of her white classmates told her she was going to be deported. Thank God, she reported it, and the school administration is handling it. They met with the boy and his parents yesterday, and they will issue a policy statement to the student body on Monday.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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There's web sites, where they're collecting incidents of this sort. There are too many to count, I am sorry to say. Here's one. The Southern Poverty Law Center is reputable.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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It's too easy to manipulate someone who is emotionally immature or inadequate into looking down on someone else, to the point of cruelty.
If only everyone saw others as of equal value to themselves. But I wonder, are we all guilty to some extent?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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It was good that the school swooped right down on this. There are administrators who wouldn't. This is the pernicious influence of a bad authority figure. I miss Obama already.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Neph shared last night that pre-election, a customer at the store he works at threw a half full water bottle at him and said "When will you be deported so an American can have your job?" (He is part Mexican. Visually, he looks like he could be native Mexican.)
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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There have been similar incidents in the UK following the Brexit vote, with at least one murder.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Get used to it. Post Brexit vote violence has risen as well. The politics of fear begets violence. And the removal of rights and benefits/entitlements.
The resultant decrease in prosperity for the misguided who voted for these things will increase violence.
X-posted with Alan, but his post does not contain enough gloom
[ 12. November 2016, 18:45: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on
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Front page news here in NZ today - an account by a young Indian New Zealander, a medical doctor, of having been called a 'f**king n****r' and threatened with a knife, on the street in San Fransisco.
What the hell kind of families do these people grow up in, that they might think for one second this sort of thing is acceptable behaviour?
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
...
If only everyone saw others as of equal value to themselves. But I wonder, are we all guilty to some extent?
So what do we do about it? Or do we not bother doing anything because we're all guilty?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Thanks for your post, lilb, I was finding myself insufficiently gloomy today. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
As for what we can do-- has the safety pin thing been working in the UK?
(Safety pin thing)
(By the way, great sig, Soror Magna.)
[ 12. November 2016, 18:55: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
...
If only everyone saw others as of equal value to themselves. But I wonder, are we all guilty to some extent?
So what do we do about it? Or do we not bother doing anything because we're all guilty?
We set the example in word and action. We challenge them when anyone uses derogatory language about other people. We mix children in classrooms.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As for what we can do-- has the safety pin thing been working in the UK?
That was a short-lived sort of thing I think. Some friends changed their avatars on Facebook to a safety pin at the time, but that's long gone and I haven't ever noticed anyone wearing one.
I'm afraid this will sound cynical, but I could see how a sign like that could be misused to lull someone into a sense of false security.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Yeah, that crossed my mind, too.
I won't post the video, because it contains location markers, but one friend of mine followed a neighbor to his house and filmed the exterior, including the street sign, house number, and license plate, after he'd unloaded on her with (let's say)hostile miogynist threats, after she'd breaked on a residential street for pedestrians dashing in front of her. She then posted it in a neighborhood watch forum that was viewable to residents only.
[ 12. November 2016, 19:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Neph shared last night that pre-election, a customer at the store he works at threw a half full water bottle at him and said "When will you be deported so an American can have your job?" (He is part Mexican. Visually, he looks like he could be native Mexican.)
The SO annoys me. In ways that are not suitable for Purg.
In the UK at least, most of the jobs taken by immigrants are ones that British people aren't prepared to do. They have not taken British jobs, they have kept us going. I am sure it is the same in the US.
So yeah, get rid of all the people who do the menial jobs, because if Americans don't want to do them, they are probably not important.
Sigh.
This is the problem - it is not Trumps politics that are the problem. It is the legitimisation of racism, abuse, and hatred. That is the legacy of the Brexit vote and the Trump vote. And the fact that so many Christians align themselves with this.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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I didn't even register the safety pin thing (and I work in a very pro-Brexit area).
There was something else that went round on social media that I did pay attention to and can't find now - about going up to the victim, greeting them and talking to them rather than leaving them to suffer alone.
Advice from The Guardian
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Other incidents that have happened in our small town.
A gay man went to his car yesterday morning and found Die Fag and Go to Hell spray painted on his car. He tried to rub it off but the paint smeared. He reported it. The police in our community have a tweet account and they reported the incident. When the guy got back to his car, he found 20 people working to buff the graffiti off the car.
Same night a young woman was assaulted by two young men who grabbed her crotch claiming if Trump can do it, they can do it two. The assault was reported, no arrests have been made.
The safety pin movement has reached America. I will be wearing one as long as Trump/Pence remain in power.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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[crossposts]
It's totally the same in the US. White folk want someone else to clean up their trash, cook their food, look after their kids, trim their lawns, fix their plumbing, and run the cash register ( while they manage all these things) but then act like those jobs are meaningless.
That's why I like working for federally funded programs-- it's just a lot more satisfying to work your ass off for people who know what it's like to work their asses off, and by that I mean the parents, not the directors.
[ 12. November 2016, 19:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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There's going to be a women's march on Jan 21 in DC. I'm going with friends.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
But I wonder, are we all guilty to some extent?
"And youi read your morning paper, and you sip your cup of tea..."
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's web sites, where they're collecting incidents of this sort. There are too many to count, I am sorry to say. Here's one. The Southern Poverty Law Center is reputable.
We get their newsletter and it's always more than I can finish reading before throwing it out in a state of despair. Same with the link, I could only go so far.
I actually had told myself that, because I hated Donald Trump, I was probably reading too much in some of his message, "Nah, he can't actually mean that." Looks like some people were hearing all the ugliness that was there and more.
We have a huge meat packing plant in our town that is almost entirely manned by Mexican people brought here for the purpose and housed tightly in small apartments. The work is horrific, bloody, dangerous and disgusting. Whites never apply.
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on
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I worry about my next-door neighbors, who speak Spanish. I worry about two of my colleagues, who are (I believe) here on work visas and speaks French and Arabic as their native tongues. I worry about my real estate attorney, who could not buy health insurance before the ACA. I worry about my students, many of whom are from India, including Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus (and women in scarves).
More selfishly, I worry that the Trump administration may change the law so states can go bankrupt--after all, he loves bankruptcy--in which case my state would likely do so and my prospective pension may disappear.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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The news here has just broadcast the story that a campaign asking companies to "Stop Funding Hate" by advertising with the Daily Mail has succeeded in persuading Lego to break their links
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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I'll wear a safety pin, along with my little enamel poppy, on my lapel tomorrow when I go to church. I wonder if anyone will notice, or whether they'll think a big poppy has fallen off....
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Ugly. Trump supporters yelling at Democrats to commit suicide.
It would be totally out of character for the man, but I do hope that the president-elect steps up and denounces this, and urges his supporters to be more decent. Oh wait, I write fantasy fiction.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Same night a young woman was assaulted by two young men who grabbed her crotch claiming if Trump can do it, they can do it two. The assault was reported, no arrests have been made.
I'm thinking we women and girls may need to start wearing women's athletic cups or pelvic shields. Yes, they exist. Or certain hygiene supplies. Or the vagina dentata (toothed vagina) gadget that some women at UC Berkeley wore when there was a campus rapist.
(Purposely not putting links, so H/As don't have to look at pics.)
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
So what do we do about it? Or do we not bother doing anything because we're all guilty?
No. We are not all guilty if you are trying to go against the tide, to resist that sort of thing, to do what you can do. 'We are all guilty' is an emotional sop, a guilt trip, an indulgence for those who don't like the thought of personal responsibility.
I don't really understand this, but there are some people who find an amorphous sense of general abstract guilt reassuring in a way that enables them to evade the personal sort that fixes you in its spotlight.
None of us are guilty for what we can't do anything about. We are guilty for what we could do something about, but don't.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
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Conspicuously absent from the hearsay accounts thus far is any mention/discussion of this...
or this...
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Conspicuously absent from the hearsay accounts thus far is any mention/discussion of this...
or this...
Under Obamacare the first guy has a better chance of getting the treatment he needs. A year of Trump and I doubt he will be so lucky.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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I have voted UKIP on a couple occasions as a protest, and voted Leave for the same reason because Polls indicted a Remain win.
Me going all guilt ridden isn't going to stop post-brexit hate crimes, what might stop it is people like Farage and Bojo getting up and emphatically denouncing it.
What is currently going in America looks disturbingly like it will be several times worse that what has so far been seen here. Given the intensely personal and high profile nature of the Electoral Campaign there only one person in the US who can denounce hate activity, and he needs to do it fast.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
So what do we do about it? Or do we not bother doing anything because we're all guilty?
No. We are not all guilty if you are trying to go against the tide, to resist that sort of thing, to do what you can do. 'We are all guilty' is an emotional sop, a guilt trip, an indulgence for those who don't like the thought of personal responsibility.
I don't really understand this, but there are some people who find an amorphous sense of general abstract guilt reassuring in a way that enables them to evade the personal sort that fixes you in its spotlight.
None of us are guilty for what we can't do anything about. We are guilty for what we could do something about, but don't.
If we look down on others to the point of making unkind remarks, or worse, even within the confines of our own homes, or on a discussion forum, are we not guilty too, to some extent? Looking at the log in our own eyes is not an indulgence.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Same night a young woman was assaulted by two young men who grabbed her crotch claiming if Trump can do it, they can do it two. The assault was reported, no arrests have been made.
I'm thinking we women and girls may need to start wearing women's athletic cups or pelvic shields. Yes, they exist. Or certain hygiene supplies. Or the vagina dentata (toothed vagina) gadget that some women at UC Berkeley wore when there was a campus rapist.
(Purposely not putting links, so H/As don't have to look at pics.)
I've been thinking of some time of inventing some kind of protective device for the crotch that is perfectly normal against the clothes, but when great force is put on it, like a knee to the groin or somebody grabbing it, the cushy part gives way and there are needles underneath.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Pope Francis called for "a revolution of tenderness". What would that look like?
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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If a sizeable portion of your population is racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and you can't change them because they don't want to change...
what the hell do you do?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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How do you make people want to change?
I know TINACW, but what "sold" Christianity in the first place? According to Jesus, at least, he wanted the identifying marker of his followers to be thier love for each other. But what does that mean, anyway?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
...
If only everyone saw others as of equal value to themselves. But I wonder, are we all guilty to some extent?
So what do we do about it? Or do we not bother doing anything because we're all guilty?
We set the example in word and action. We challenge them when anyone uses derogatory language about other people. We mix children in classrooms.
This from a city well north of me.
What's troubling is that the 4chan generation thought this was a good joke. What's encouraging is that the administration pretty much went apeshit, and immediately made plans to turn this into a teachable moment. As well as sending a clear message that students intimidating fellow students would not be tolerated.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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(The above was a first dispatch sent out before the administration had produced a comment. This is the updated version I had originally read, which includes the administration response.)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Another news report about the upsurge in incidents, this one noting that the number exceeds those that occurred after 9-11.
It has been wisely suggested that the clergy weigh in from the pulpit, and I suppose this would help with people who go to church. Don't know what it'd do for those who don't. The only solution here is for the Orange One himself to calm the waters -- make a speech, or send a tweet, urging the nutcases to cool down. And I can't believe he'd do that. It would be totally uncharacteristic of him.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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The orange one is tweeting blaming the recent protests (he called them riots) are being funded by the liberal media. His presumed henchman Giuliani has said under his watch there will be no more riots.
Maybe Thomas Jefferson was right when he hypothesized America should reform its government every 20 years.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Well, so much for a soothing voice of reason.
I actually did speculate that his response to reports of violence would be, "Lies" and his response to video evidence would be "Faked."
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The orange one is tweeting blaming the recent protests (he called them riots) are being funded by the liberal media.
Which has credibility, because we know that the dimocrats were paying for violence at Trump rallies as a means of stigmatizing his supporters.
Also the reason why thinking people wonder, when a church is burned or racist graffiti shows up, whether it is more likely that a Trump supporter is responsible or it's the work of some paid leftist douchebag.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If a sizeable portion of your population is racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and you can't change them because they don't want to change...
what the hell do you do?
You can't change them. I had an argument on the internet with someone the other day who said that Muslims were guests in our country, had abused our hospitality, prisons were full of them and they should be deported. I pointed out that this wasn't true and that some had been here for decades, in which case they were hardly guests. His response was "60 years, what difference does that make compared to the timescale of British history". He then said he could cite evidence for all his assertions, but doubted I'd accept it because I probably wouldn't accept anything from the BNP and similar sites as having any veracity. Which he was right about. We agreed to disagree but I found the rigidity of his views disturbing.
I think Mother Teresa had it right: do it anyway.
[ 13. November 2016, 07:34: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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I think part of the problem is that there are always some people who need to externalize their demons. Unfortunately, this can mean acting out the exorcism on anyone who appears to fit the description.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The orange one is tweeting blaming the recent protests (he called them riots) are being funded by the liberal media.
Which has credibility, because we know that the dimocrats were paying for violence at Trump rallies as a means of stigmatizing his supporters.
Also the reason why thinking people wonder, when a church is burned or racist graffiti shows up, whether it is more likely that a Trump supporter is responsible or it's the work of some paid leftist douchebag.
Do you have anything to contribute other than repeating unsubstantiated accusations from those who spread hate, and derogatory mis-spelling the names of political organisations and individuals? Your posting record suggests not.
These are discussion boards. We value different opinions. But, your style of scattering threads with hate speech without any clearly formulated discussion points adds nothing to the discussions here.
You have two choices. Engage in discussions in a mature, sensible and thoughtful way. Or, keep quiet. This is your final warning, a last chance to change or else we will revoke your ability to post.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If a sizeable portion of your population is racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and you can't change them because they don't want to change...
This is exactly what I've been thinking. And I completely reject the "listen to the voices of anger and marginalization" argument for the reasons that many have pointed out - the most marginalized and poorest voted Hillary.
The majority got it wrong. They sided with darkness. And they didn't get it wrong for noble or understandable reasons, they didn't get it wrong through weakness, it was negligence and deliberate fault. That's my view. Those people saying that liberals need to engage with these people and listen to them need to explain what that would actually mean in practice and how it would be done without validating and normalizing misogyny, hate and racism.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Well, no, the majority voted for Clinton.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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There are some reports that Clinton has received the largest number of votes ever cast for a candidate, except Obama. However, they are still counting. If that is correct, (nearly 2 million more than Trump), I think we can call that byzantine.
[ 13. November 2016, 12:28: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There are some reports that Clinton has received the largest number of votes ever cast for a candidate, except Obama. However, they are still counting. If that is correct, (nearly 2 million more than Trump), I think we can call that byzantine.
According to AP, Mrs Clinton is just over 570,000 votes ahead. Her 60,000,000 votes is fewer than Obama received in 2008 and 2012, as you say, and also fewer than the 62m George W. Bush received in 2004. But of course, as you say it's not quite over yet.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There are some reports that Clinton has received the largest number of votes ever cast for a candidate, except Obama. However, they are still counting. If that is correct, (nearly 2 million more than Trump), I think we can call that byzantine.
"Largest number of votes ever cast" is a really stupid metric in the presence of population growth. Fraction of votes cast, and fraction of total elecotrate, are both sensible things to consider.
On that front, Clinton currently has 47.8% of the popular vote vs Trump's 47.3%. That's about the same margin that Al Gore beat George Bush by (48.4% - 47.9%), but given that the election is not determined by the popular vote, you can't assume that people's voting patterns would be the same under a popular vote scheme. In particular, people in "safe" states would be less comfortable voting third party in a popular vote scheme.
Compare with the 1992 election, where Bill Clinton won with 43.0% of the vote, vs 37.4% for Bush and 18.9% for Perot.
If you want narrow margins, JFK beat Nixon by a mere 0.17%. The only other election that was closer in the popular vote was Garfield vs Hancock in 1880.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If a sizeable portion of your population is racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and you can't change them because they don't want to change...
what the hell do you do?
Stopping the loose use of contentious terminology like homophobe, misogynist, racist, so as to render them virtually meaningless might be a good place to start.
Trump just stood up over months of campaigning, blatantly withstood all the misogynistic name calling, plus a grotesque revelation that should have finished him, and then simply blew political correctness off it's pedestal.
I'm not applauding that achievement, it wasn't impossible to see it coming though.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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I don't think the Byzantines were big on representative democracy.
It is galling that Hillary won the popular vote, but those are the rules and for me the real travesty is that the thing was even in play. I find the intellectual challenge of coping with what it says about human beings that 61 million of them voted for Trump no different from the challenge that 64 million voted for him. It's a lot of people.
Of course the immediate practical challenge is that a dark, bullying malevolent bigot is POTUS elect. This is bad on many other levels.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Stopping the loose use of contentious terminology like homophobe, misogynist, racist, so as to render them virtually meaningless might be a good place to start.
You seem to be arguing that because he won those labels shouldn't apply. I can't think of any definition of racist and misogyny that doesn't include a sentence or two from most of Trump's campaign speeches.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Those people saying that liberals need to engage with these people and listen to them need to explain what that would actually mean in practice and how it would be done without validating and normalizing misogyny, hate and racism.
Reason, logic, and facts do not seem to work. People see what they want and right now people want someone to blame for their perceived ills.
The fact that the groups they blame are either in the same situation or worse is lost.
I hate selfish attitudes, to begin, but the most frustrating part is that people have voted to fuck themselves as well.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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It isn't about reason or logic. It's about people going with their feelings and often being emotionally inarticulate and unable, or unwilling, to get into all that touchy-feely intellectual rubbish of self-analysis which might actually get them looking at why they do or think particular things. It's a straightforward, uncomplicated approach to life: he's different, therefore he's wrong.
Rigidity of outlook doesn't make for happiness. It makes you a prisoner of your own beliefs, and angry and uncomfortable with anyone who doesn't conform. We're going to be seeing a lot of that in the coming days. Maybe in some ways it's better that it's coming to the surface and is out in the open instead of bubbling away as an undercurrent, but it's certainly going to be a very uncomfortable ride for the rest of us.
Posted by Joesaphat (# 18493) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's web sites, where they're collecting incidents of this sort. There are too many to count, I am sorry to say. Here's one. The Southern Poverty Law Center is reputable.
They are generally reputable. They did list Maajid Nawaz as an anti-Islamic bigot though. I'm not taking them at their word anymore.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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In the face of fascistic tendencies, I remember Joe Hill: don't mourn, organize.
However, two points about that. I think Joe was wrong to say don't mourn, mourning is fine. And it is not incompatible with organizing at all.
And second, 'organize' can mean lots of things, not just Wobbly stuff. (Industrial Workers of the World, of which Joe was a member, later framed for a murder and shot).
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Amen to that, quetzalcoatl. In fact, mourning properly can give you the energy to fight properly.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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The only energy I have is rage. I am still ideologically opposed, but never have I been emotionally closer to separatist thought.
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If a sizeable portion of your population is racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and you can't change them because they don't want to change...
what the hell do you do?
Stopping the loose use of contentious terminology like homophobe, misogynist, racist, so as to render them virtually meaningless might be a good place to start.
Trump just stood up over months of campaigning, blatantly withstood all the misogynistic name calling, plus a grotesque revelation that should have finished him, and then simply blew political correctness off it's pedestal.
I'm not applauding that achievement, it wasn't impossible to see it coming though.
Ok. When someone says, or supports someone who says, “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”
If you don't want us to call it racist what word should we use instead?
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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Those with a challenged sense of equality?
Bit of a mouthful.
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on
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Kelly, I don't know if you've been following the thread about Pastor Bill Johnson's support for Trump, but Bethel Church, of which he is leader, is based in...Redding! ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
(Assuming it's the same Redding)
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If you don't want us to call it racist what word should we use instead?
To my mind, a worse name than "racist" is "wrong". It's just false. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at just about the same rate as citizens. It is a complete falsehood to claim that there is any difference in the level of criminality between illegal immigrants and US citizens.
If it was true that Mexico was "sending" all its crappy people to the US (how does he imagine that works? Mexican judges offering kids a choice between jail and the US?) then the way Trump talks about it would still be racist. But there isn't even any truth there.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thanks for your post, lilb, I was finding myself insufficiently gloomy today.
As for what we can do-- has the safety pin thing been working in the UK?
(Safety pin thing)
(By the way, great sig, Soror Magna.)
I once heard a story that Italian communists in the 1950's would engage in ostentatious displays of wealth so as to incite the downtrodden masses jealously to rebel, thus furthering the Revolution. Somehow, the safety pin jewelry reminded me of it. I'm sure there's no connection.
I'm still very sad, and have offered my spare room to select American liberals.
[ 14. November 2016, 03:00: Message edited by: simontoad ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Kelly, I don't know if you've been following the thread about Pastor Bill Johnson's support for Trump, but Bethel Church, of which he is leader, is based in...Redding!
(Assuming it's the same Redding)
Doesn't shock me at all. Redding, CA is rather a redneck conclave. My brother in law was a minister in an Assembly of God church up there. The behavior of the kid in the story is sadly indicative of the general culture up there.
Which, come to think of it, is what makes the response of the school administration and the community leaders in general pretty encouraging.
Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on
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I'm astonished at the many voices on the internet right now asking people not to tell racist people they have done a racist thing. It's perplexing.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
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Does educating people on history work at all? This David Olusoga documentary traces black roots in Britain back to Roman times.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm astonished at the many voices on the internet right now asking people not to tell racist people they have done a racist thing. It's perplexing.
I'm still trying to absorb how the 'left behind' have apparently voted in right-wing governments in the UK and US, supposedly to get new jobs, raise wages, and so on.
Wow, is this for real? I guess the racism is a sweetener, or a lubricant.
But 'angels in marble' have been around for ages, (phrase from Disraeli).
Oh fuck, groan, grumble, grind teeth, drink, more drink, go unconscious, watch TV. What else?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm astonished at the many voices on the internet right now asking people not to tell racist people they have done a racist thing. It's perplexing.
I'm still trying to absorb how the 'left behind' have apparently voted in right-wing governments in the UK and US, supposedly to get new jobs, raise wages, and so on.
The right-wing parties successfully place the blame for all that is wrong on minorities, welfare claimants and public spending when bankers, mass media and corporate interests are screwing everyone over except the top one or two percent.
They are successful in this because they are successful in most things, thanks mostly to having the means to do so, like immense wealth. It doesn't make it remotely just though.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I think another factor is that the left/liberal parties have been colonized by neo-liberalism, so that, for example, Labour and the Democrats have accepted deregulation, privatization, and so on. When the crash struck, there were only shades of opinion of how to tackle it, and they all agreed on the basic neo-lib suite of policies.
I suppose the Corbyn/Sanders revolt has shown that you can oppose this. Why am I not cheered by this?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Here's an article callilng out evangelicals for their votes for the Orange One.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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Did you see the comments? The one that said that christians will have gone to the polls prayerfully and followed what they really believed was God's will.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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Unfortunately it was the devil's will.
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If you don't want us to call it racist what word should we use instead?
To my mind, a worse name than "racist" is "wrong". It's just false. Illegal immigrants commit crimes at just about the same rate as citizens. It is a complete falsehood to claim that there is any difference in the level of criminality between illegal immigrants and US citizens.
Actually there is a difference between crime rates for U.S. citizens and immigrants, and the difference is that immigrants (both legal and illegal) are actually less likely to commit crimes than native-born Americans.
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have voted UKIP on a couple occasions as a protest, and voted Leave ... what might stop [incidents] is people like Farage and Bojo getting up and emphatically denouncing it.
This has been puzzling me a bit.
Are you essentially admitting that you voted for demagogues whose rhetoric has allowed such things to occur?
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
This has been puzzling me a bit.
Are you essentially admitting that you voted for demagogues whose rhetoric has allowed such things to occur?
There's a Hell thread on this very point if you're interested.
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on
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It's a soightly different point - not that to vote Leave is inherently dimwitted as a protest strategy, rather an admission that there is a link between the rhetoric and the incidents. I would be interested in rolyn's reflections on that.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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It is obvious to any one who isn't a dimwit that rhetoric will lead to action. Many of us can remember the industrial riots of the 80's and the rhetoric driving much of that.
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on
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"Stop it" is hardly adequate.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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And he only said it because the interviewer kept pushing him.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It is obvious to any one who isn't a dimwit that rhetoric will lead to action. Many of us can remember the industrial riots of the 80's and the rhetoric driving much of that.
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
It's not enough. He needs to say it multiple times a day, every day, along with strongly-worded denouncements, until it stops. Saying it once on a tv interview isn't enough. It's show.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Just a quick update about my granddaughter. We spent the weekend with her. She is one of the most level headed young teenager I know. She goes by the motto, "When they go low, I go high."
I did take up the suggestion to report the incident to the Southern Poverty Law Center. This morning I got a response from SPLC asking for more information I gave them the website to the school. I imagine they will continue to investigate the issue. I am very impressed.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It is obvious to any one who isn't a dimwit that rhetoric will lead to action. Many of us can remember the industrial riots of the 80's and the rhetoric driving much of that.
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
It's not enough. He needs to say it multiple times a day, every day, along with strongly-worded denouncements, until it stops. Saying it once on a tv interview isn't enough. It's show.
Everything, everything he does and says is show.
As soon as an idiot bully reaches high office in any organsisation folks start cosying up to them. Suddenly their charm (which all bullies have, in spades) starts to work on all sorts of previous critics.
Let's see if Theresa May does the same. Here's betting she does.
Ho hum.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It is obvious to any one who isn't a dimwit that rhetoric will lead to action. Many of us can remember the industrial riots of the 80's and the rhetoric driving much of that.
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
To use an old phrase of my mum's - he can say what he likes until the cows come home. This is more about what he does and how he is . Words are cheap.
Huia
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It is obvious to any one who isn't a dimwit that rhetoric will lead to action. Many of us can remember the industrial riots of the 80's and the rhetoric driving much of that.
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
He says a couple of words after being hounded to do so. He also hired a white seperatist whose livelihood has depended on racist rhetoric. So, what was his message again?
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing. Good to hear trump has done precisely that today ---"Stop it!"-- is what he said to people doing post election harassment.
And of course they've all stopped it immediately.
Posted by Odds Bodkin (# 18663) on
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Bullying has always occured, but with the arrival of social media people are using occasions of bullying to present a political agenda as if such bullying has not previously occured.
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Like I said the people at the top doing the spouting are the ones who need to do the denouncing.
And maybe the ones voting for them could do their bit by not voting for them.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Just a quick update about my granddaughter. We spent the weekend with her. She is one of the most level headed young teenager I know. She goes by the motto, "When they go low, I go high."
I did take up the suggestion to report the incident to the Southern Poverty Law Center. This morning I got a response from SPLC asking for more information I gave them the website to the school. I imagine they will continue to investigate the issue. I am very impressed.
Good to hear.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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Exactly. We do seem to have selective memories as to how nice everything used to be. Anyone would think the world was one great continuum of sweetness, light, love and fluffies until the big bad Donald dropped out of the sky.
Given that most perceive the States as a place awash will guns and a proportion of individuals inclined to use them, then it seems, from where I'm stood, that the fallout of from this highly contentious Election is strangely, (and thankfully), reasonably mild.
Reply to OB
[ 20. November 2016, 09:20: Message edited by: rolyn ]
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Exactly. We do seem to have selective memories as to how nice everything used to be. Anyone would think the world was one great continuum of sweetness, light, love and fluffies until the big bad Donald dropped out of the sky.
Given that most perceive the States as a place awash will guns and a proportion of individuals inclined to use them, then it seems, from where I'm stood, that the fallout of from this highly contentious Election is strangely, (and thankfully), reasonably mild.
Reply to OB
That's because the lunatics with guns were on the winning side. Many of them now retrieving their white hoods from the back of the closet.
[ 20. November 2016, 09:26: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Exactly. We do seem to have selective memories as to how nice everything used to be. Anyone would think the world was one great continuum of sweetness, light, love and fluffies until the big bad Donald dropped out of the sky.
I don't think anyone was thinking that. The Donald's election has simply given a green light and a voice to anyone who wants to make it unequivocally clear that they aren't prepared to tolerate people who look different or think differently. I understand the need for increased anti-terrorism measures in this day and age but rounding up every single member of an entire community to register them and have them on a list is not the way to do it. Far more members of the Muslim community are glad to be good American citizens than not.
I mean substitute "Jews" for "Muslims" and maybe you can see why people are worried?
quote:
Given that most perceive the States as a place awash will guns and a proportion of individuals inclined to use them, then it seems, from where I'm stood, that the fallout of from this highly contentious Election is strangely, (and thankfully), reasonably mild.
I don't think you can have many friends in America Rolyn. I've had some in tears over this and others worried sick about what's going to happen. I don't think you can have been reading or watching the news either and haven't seen the protests or riots. I don't remember that happening over the election of any other president, surely that says something.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Exactly. We do seem to have selective memories as to how nice everything used to be. Anyone would think the world was one great continuum of sweetness, light, love and fluffies until the big bad Donald dropped out of the sky.
Just like Brexit, the fallout is yet to be seen.
But it's true that Brexit, the Trump nightmare, possible far right French president helps us remember that life and history don't always progress. That history doesn't run in a straight line towards enlightenment, equality, freedom and tolerance. We can just as easily regress - it's happening now before our eyes.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I mean substitute "Jews" for "Muslims" and maybe you can see why people are worried?
One of T's surrogates/spokespeople indicated that the WWII internment camps for Japanese Americans might be food for thought. The Fox news interviewer pushed him to clarify and consider what he said. He backed off, then came back to the same idea. I was impressed that a *Fox* interviewer did that!
Survivors of the internment camps, like George Takei (Sulu, on "Star Trek"), have spoken out.
quote:
quote:
Given that most perceive the States as a place awash will guns and a proportion of individuals inclined to use them, then it seems, from where I'm stood, that the fallout of from this highly contentious Election is strangely, (and thankfully), reasonably mild.
I don't think you can have many friends in America Rolyn. I've had some in tears over this and others worried sick about what's going to happen. I don't think you can have been reading or watching the news either and haven't seen the protests or riots. I don't remember that happening over the election of any other president, surely that says something.
Hell, yes, people are terrified. The night of the election, people actually crashed the official website for Canadian immigration info. There are children who are freaking out, afraid they'll be rounded up and sent away. 3 related suicides have been mentioned on the boards--IIRC, 2 were trans folks, and 1 was dependent on Obamacare for her life.
Muslims are being targeted, as well as anyone that might be perceived as Muslim. Any sort of head scarf can be interpreted as a hijab, and has been. I heard a young Muslim woman on NPR. She was stressed and conflicted about continuing to wear the hijab. (IIRC, someone may have accosted her.) She finally decided to switch to wearing a hat, for now. Even her mom told her to put aside the hijab.
There've been all sorts of incidents in public/state schools. (Don't know about private.) Students bullying each other over religion, ethnicity, immigration status--and teachers getting in on the act. Here in California, IIRC, someone designated school urinals as for "whites" or "coloreds". This was hand-written on the porcelain, removed, and re-written.
Plus creeps who think they now have official sanction to harass women.
A whole lot of bad things can be done without guns.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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One more thing. Maybe imagine if Theresa May finally caved in over the Brexit thing and agreed to hold a snap election. (It's just an analogy, not a real-world example.) And the next morning the country woke up to find that Ukip had pipped the others to the post and Nigel Farage had become the next prime minister. This is the equivalent.
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
One more thing. Maybe imagine if Theresa May finally caved in over the Brexit thing and agreed to hold a snap election. (It's just an analogy, not a real-world example.) And the next morning the country woke up to find that Ukip had pipped the others to the post and Nigel Farage had become the next prime minister. This is the equivalent.
It's actually worse - at least Farage pays lip service to the idea of rejecting out-and-out Nazis, with UKIP banning former BNP members from their ranks. Trump welcomes the Klan with open arms. It's the equivalent of Farage being proud that Combat 18 are supporting him.
[ 20. November 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Odds Bodkin:
Bullying has always occured, but with the arrival of social media people are using occasions of bullying to present a political agenda as if such bullying has not previously occured.
Yeah, no. Bullying has always occurred. However the internet, and social media in particular, has allowed bullies to target more people, to do so more anonymously and with fewer consequences. Therefore bullying has increased. And bullies can find target groups they did not know existed. If anyone is using social media for an "agenda". it is bullies.
Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Conspicuously absent from the hearsay accounts thus far is any mention/discussion of this...
or this...
It´s the same media that failed miserably to predict the outcome of the election, that now claims to know exactly what is going to happen. What did you expect. This kind of people want to criminalize contrary opinions. They are fascists.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Conspicuously absent from the hearsay accounts thus far is any mention/discussion of this...
or this...
It´s the same media that failed miserably to predict the outcome of the election, that now claims to know exactly what is going to happen. What did you expect. This kind of people want to criminalize contrary opinions. They are fascists.
I defy you to come up with actual evidence that mainstream journalists want to criminalize contrary opinions, especially in the US.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Going to the issue of interment camps. I am from the West Coast There was an interment camp less than 20 miles from where I grew up. While I was born in 49, I had long been aware of the existence of the camp. The camp was the Minidoka Relocation Center. I have visited it a number of times over the years.
At its peak it had around 9,000 internees (actually prisoners) Most of the residents were from the Seattle area. Think of it. Living in an area that was lush and green with moderate temperatures and all of the sudden being forced to live on a barren hill in the middle of a desert, in poorly insulated barracks where the winters were bitter.
Yet these people made the best of it. They developed a thriving community, and victory gardens, clubs, Boy and Girl Scout troops. But when the war ended the community vanished practically overnight.
For the longest time there were just a few remnants of the camp. A couple of long barracks. Some concrete slabs where some of the main buildings stood and a few pieces of rusted farm equipment and collapsed root cellars.
Now, the US Park Service is working to preserve what remains. The last time I was there, they built a replica of a guard tower and have restrung the barbed wire fence that used to surround the camp. They now have a walking trail taking people to some sites within the camp. The remains of the Commanding Officer building (where the current parking lot is) to a hollowed out area which was flooded so the residents could have a very primitive swimming whole, to some collapsed root cellars, to two of the remaining barracks, to the old fire station and then back to the parking lot. Interspersed throughout the walk are little interpretative markers.
While I had long known of the existence of the camp, my wife, who was from the East Coast, had never heard of them. She did not know of them until we had been married about three years and were moving to California. We went past the remnants of the Manzinar Camp out in the middle of nowhere. She had wondered what it was and I told her it had been an internment camp.
She was scandalized. I was surprised she had never heard of the internment camps
While Trump still maintains he wants to register all Muslims, we are very concerned he might want to set up similar camps people who have come from the middle east and their families. Could some of these same camps may be reinstated? Hell no, if I have any say in the matter.
I know if he goes ahead with the registration, I will be one of the first in my community to register, though I am not Muslim.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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And there were the Aleut camps, too, up in Alaska, for the Aleut indigenous people. I gather those camps were even worse than the ones for Japanese Americans.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Gramps, thanks for that post. The state fair grounds here in Puyallup was used as a relocation center, and I have a book with photographs of the rows and rows of perfectly aligned tents, filled with Americans of Japanese ancestry waiting to be sent further inland to the permanent camps. The fairgrounds are once again used for the annual fair, as well as other festive events (and a gun show). It's less than 5 miles from my home.
My first church in Chicago was a United Methodist church peopled almost entirely with former detainees and their offspring. My best buddy when I was at school there was of Japanese descent, although he didn't go to that church. His father was an internee.
It blows me away that there could be people who don't know about the camps. No blame to your wife of course, but to the schools that should have taught her our history. In all its shameful, rotten unglory.
GK, many Alaska natives became Orthodox AFTER the Sale -- because they could see how much differently the Orthodox missionaries treated them compared to the Americans. Much of the internment there was to force "modernization" on the native peoples, in part by kidnapping their children and keeping them apart. (The book I Heard the Owl Call My Name almost admits this treatment, although they whitewash it a good bit, and IIRC it's in British Columbia not Alaska.)
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Now you know where the Japanese who were rounded up in Puyallup likely went to. Have you ever read the book The Hotel at the Corner of Bitter and Sweet. It is a fictionalized account of a family that owned it. When they were forced to move, first to Puyallup and then to Minidoka, they stored their belongings in the basement of the building and they were forgotten. Then a new owner 75 years latter discovers the old belongings. Good story.
Another book I liked about the same experience was Snow Falling on Cedars. It is about a Japanese American girl and a white boy growing up together and then the war happens. Talked about reconciliation much later.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now you know where the Japanese who were rounded up in Puyallup likely went to.
Actually all across western Washington, if I'm not mistaken.
Haven't read the books you mention. If I could only read one, which would you suggest?
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Motel on Corner of Bitter and Sweet
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Oops, Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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mt--
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
GK, many Alaska natives became Orthodox AFTER the Sale -- because they could see how much differently the Orthodox missionaries treated them compared to the Americans. Much of the internment there was to force "modernization" on the native peoples, in part by kidnapping their children and keeping them apart. (The book I Heard the Owl Call My Name almost admits this treatment, although they whitewash it a good bit, and IIRC it's in British Columbia not Alaska.)
Thanks for this. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Actually, I know (in general) about Native kids being forced away, as you say, throughout North America. I'm glad that the Orthodoxen were better to them.
Actually, I was thinking specifically of the Aleut evacuation and internment, from WWII. I don't think I'd heard of it until the move for reparation to the Japanese American internees picked up a lot of steam, years ago. IIRC, getting the Aleuts included almost didn't happen.
A summary from the site of a related film (Aleut Story):
quote:
From isolated internment camps in Southeast Alaska to Congress and the White House, this is the incredible, untold story of Aleut Americans’ decades-long struggle for human and civil rights.
In 1942, as World War II invaded Alaska, Aleut Americans were taken from their homes and removed to abysmal government camps 1,500 miles away. Death was ever-present in the camps. An estimated 10 percent of the men, women and children sent to the camps would die there—a death rate comparable to that suffered by Americans in foreign prisoner of war camps. As the Aleuts prayed for deliverance, “friendly forces” looted their homes and churches in the Aleutian and Pribilof islands.
Those who survived would fight for their rights—in the nation’s courts and on Capitol Hill. In a historic action—one that continues to influence our lives and our nation’s ideals—Aleuts joined Japanese Americans in seeking wartime reparations from the federal government.
Aleut Americans ultimately prevailed.
BTW: "I Heard The Owl Call My Name" is one of my favorite books! IIRC, it wasn't so much that Margaret Craven (author) glossed over the kids being packed off. Within the world of the story, at any rate, the kids weren't *forcibly* sent off at that point. But they did have a really hard time, at boarding school and in the outside world. And yes, it takes place in BC, with the Kwakiutl people.
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