Ship of Fools: UK, immigrant workers, xenophobia?

Thread: UK, immigrant workers, xenophobia? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mrWaters (# 18171) on :

This topic has been with me for several years. Everything I can say about the topic I could also say before Brexit vote so no point in decrying that Brexit changed everything.

I'm Polish and I came to the UK (Aberdeen, Scotland) to study. Here I met plenty of people from my motherland and most of us quite liked it. About a year into the recovery after the Financial Crisis my friend's father's company went under (as it was servicing mostly abroad where crisis hit harder and nonessential expenditures were cut mercilessly). He is a distinguished physicist, with PhD, experience in the field almost everywhere on projects even as big as the Hadron collider. Speaks perfect English, used to teach physics at Uni and then he did so exclusively in English in an elite Polish high school with IB. That's probably not even half of his CV but everyone can probably agree, he's qualified for just about anything. He came to Aberdeen and tried to find a job in his field. What happened? He started to be a delivery driver for a takeaway.

What happened? That's a good question. Both my friend and his father went from loving the country and people to hating everything there within 8 months (considering their qualifications, a huge loss for UK's GDP). They claimed that the system is rigged. I like to think that I am very skeptical of any conspiracy theories and I'm down to Earth. When most see corruption I tend to see extreme stupidity. Bilderberg Group world government? Don't get me started... However in this case I'm at a loss...

Let's be clear, my friend's father applied for multitude of positions but let's concentrate at those to which he is ridiculously qualified like a secondary school teacher. There was a statistically significant number of applications and there was demand (little after he left the UK in the local paper there was a story about incentive scheme to attract physics teachers as the shortage became critical). I remember one instance (out of several if not many) when he went for a job interview and aced it (and lied to make sure he didn't overwhelm with qualifications). The headmaster claimed to be interested in hiring him on the spot, however soon after sending the paperwork upstairs there came the rejection. The headmaster called later to apologize that his superiors vetoed the application without possibility of an appeal or explanation. Apparently such a thing happened a few times. Afterwards of course the schools were still looking for the same teacher for months and months.

Can anyone convince me that there is no bias against migrants doing 'the good jobs' which can't be filled by natives as they're just not educated enough. Or have no desire to move to a village in the middle of nowhere. My friend's theory was that SNP being in power in Scotland boosted all things nationalistic and xenophobic. Apparently the further South the better. I myself just don't know.

There are plenty of Shipmates living in the UK, some even were born here. Is there a strong bias against migrants (at least those that have this annoying eastern accent) doing anything better than driving or cleaning? Is Scotland particularly bad in this respect? Can anyone assure me that my friend's father's story while horrible is very incidental?

PS. I really hope that this ain't Dead Horses material and there still is a possibility for a resolution to the topic.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I live fairly close to Aberdeen and I'm sorry to hear of your friend's father's experiences.

Does your friend's father have a recognised teaching qualification? He would need to have, as a minimum, a Post Graduate Diploma in Education. See here.

I have four degrees, including a PhD and did some teaching at University level during my PhD; I could not teach in a Scottish secondary school because I don't have a B.Ed or a PGDE.

You are right, there is a chronic shortage of physics teachers, but he is not "ridiculously qualified" if he doesn't have a teaching qualification.

He would be better off trying to get a University post.

Our former church treasurer was an Eastern European migrant; after coming here he got an excellent job in the oil industry. With the downturn in oil industry jobs, that's less likely for anyone.

Given that one of the SNP MSPs in this area used to be Christian Allard, who is French, I don't think the SNP are biased against non-Scots.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Sorry, I should have said that he would need a B.Ed or a PGDE to teach in a state school (the majority of schools in Scotland are state schools) Fee-paying schools are more flexible in terms of employment.

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

MrWaters:
What are you hoping for? Dicussing complex individual cases is never going to be easy, but as a general rule I would expect that if I went to another country to work, there would be some degree of prejudice, as this is natural to humans as they are, rather than as we would like them to be.
I have come across it myself, not in being refused work (I worked for international consultants) but there was definite friction at times. And looking back, I was not blameless.
I don't blame them. You obviously do. Without a very detailed account of case that so troubles you, I would have no way to know whether anti-foreigner bias played a part.
A more general discussion of the principles would, in my view, be easier to contribute to.

Posted by Humble Servant (# 18391) on :

You should move up to London. I worked with many well qualified people from your neck of the woods while I was there. Double the money, so don't worry about the cost of housing. Having moved away 3 years ago, I really miss my former colleagues from all corners of the world. The rest of the UK is ... well, different.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

The other thing which occurs to me in relation to any form of of teaching (not just schools) is that your friend's father would require a PVG (Protection of Vulnerable Groups) certificate. I have one because I help with Sunday School. To get a PVG certificate requires proof of identity, evidence of former addresses for the last (by recollection) 5 years, and personal references. If he hasn't already got a PVG certificate he should get one ASAP as the lack of one will slow everything down, and verifying his previous addresses may take longer if he's not been in Britain.

[ 24. November 2016, 21:33: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

Posted by mrWaters (# 18171) on :

It's been some years and the story about the physics teacher is at this point water under the bridge. I would like to point out to anyone that no sane person would admit for an interview someone who does not have the basic qualification like PGDE (or something to the effect). I believe that it took some time for the teacher in question to adapt his qualifications to be legally able to teach, but he managed.

The instance that I have introduced in this topic has haunted me for a few years. It's hard for me to imagine such a bias against immigrants, yet it's hard for me to understand this story without assuming one. I don't know if I could tell the story without sounding angry and more or less implicitly blaming everyone for it. I however just can't accept that Scots deep down inside are xenophobic. I've experienced plenty of bad, however the balance of my experiences is still very positive.

I do not believe to have much resentment. I understand fairly well my own failures and successes. I may seem to be blaming Scots a lot, yet it's far from the truth. I owe the country a lot and I do recognize it.

I have always thought of SNP as very friendly towards immigrants. I voted for them a few times actually (local elections of various kinds). Then doesn't rule of nationalists (even very moderate ones) implicitly create more intense nationalism?

My example of course is only one story, about which none of you know much. I thought it would mostly work as an invitation to the discussion of the more general. I mean the UK and Scotland have had a lot of immigration in the past. Those hundreds of thousands (or more? I don't really know) of Indian expats, back in 60s I think, and all the other movements after Britain lost the Empire. One would think that the bias against immigrants would be very slight. I mean all of it happened before and it was fine.

We can all say that yes, I know this guy who works in the Oil and Gas in a high level position. However I dare anyone to say that there isn't under-representation of foreign workers in management positions in any industry. Sure most Polish immigrants were uneducated and unqualified for much of anything. Then very few international students at University of Aberdeen stayed to work here, huge waste of resources for Scotland.

So let me rephrase my old questions. Is there bias or maybe how big is it? Should we care? Does nationalist government implicitly encourage it? Is it much better in England? Does experience of old migrations help elevate tension between new migrants and Brits? I mean I don't think there are many landlords with "No dogs, blacks, Irish and Poles" so that's something, but is it enough?

PS. I probably should have used some less powerful story about bias. Well, what's done is done.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
I have always thought of SNP as very friendly towards immigrants. I voted for them a few times actually (local elections of various kinds). Then doesn't rule of nationalists (even very moderate ones) implicitly create more intense nationalism?

FWIW, the SNP and Scottish Government have expressed far more positive views on immigration than the Westminster government. It has been a fairly constant part of their policy for a decade or more to encourage immigration into Scotland, for the benefit of Scotland. Which contrasts heavily with Westminster policy to severely restrict immigration. That could, of course, be a convenient stick to hit Westminster with as an example of UK government policy being contrary to Scottish government policy and economic and social needs (though, I also believe that restricting immigration is contrary to the economic and social needs for the UK as a whole and that the UK government has gotten it seriously wrong on this point - which IMO indicates considerably more xenophobia south of the border).

You describe the SNP as moderate nationalists. I think that it may even be inaccurate to call them "nationalists", the SNP are actually quite significantly different from other nationalist movements. Certainly the independence referendum campaign was focussed heavily on the nation of Scotland and those who live here, rather than on people who are ethnically Scottish, and gained a lot of support from immigrants (whether from outwith the UK, or elsewhere in the UK). Not that the SNP and Scottish Government don't also play on Scottish culture and heritage - including things like Homecoming encouraging ethnic Scots to visit Scotland, and potentially settle here.

Of course, none of that means that xenophobia is absent in Scotland. Far from it (as an Englishman living near Glasgow, I can attest to experience of people letting me know their views of Sassenachs). But, it does seem to be far better here than in parts of England. It is something that the people of Scotland, and our government, need to work hard to improve.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I think there is a level of in-built bias against new-comers in the UK because our culture works in a very particular way and on a need-to-know basis. Which immigrants often don't know or are unprepared for.

For example, your friend in Aberdeen may not have known about the culture of hiring teachers in the UK. I'm not a teacher but have heard that there is a particular kind of behaviour teachers are expected to show at the end of an interview day to show that they want the job (this may not be current or normal, but it serves as an example). Someone who is not schooled in this proceedure may miss the cultural clues and therefore not be offered the job.

Or it might not be obvious to an outsider that teaching experience in a university (or foreign school) does not necessarily count for teaching in a British school.

It is possible that the schools were biased against someone from Eastern Europe based on the accent. Aberdeen has a strong accent, I suppose your friend may have worried the school management as to whether he would be able to understand the children.

But then there is also something of a culture in the UK which acts against anyone who is looking to apply for a job which is signficantly below their expected level. The attitude appears to be that such a person is unreliable because they're likely looking for a better job and then will leave when they find one. And schools don't tend to like having to replace teachers mid-term (although it does happen a lot, more than one of my daughter's teachers had a complete breakdown in the middle of the term and left). Again, it is possible that someone who isn't totally assimilated into the British culture might not fully pick this kind of attitude up, particularly if it isn't similar to something they've experienced elsewhere.

Of course, direct xenophobia and racism is also possible.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Let's get away from the specific "teacher" scenario - after all, the OP says that the gentleman "tried to find a job in his field" and "applied for a multitude of positions".

I think the issue of differing interview styles may count for something - but, sadly, there is an inherent racism and xenophobia in this country. I suspect that some employers might look askance at someone with an obviously Muslim name on their application form, for instance.

There may also be an issue of expectation and stereotyping: all recent Polish (or whatever) migrants *are expected to do* entry-level jobs. Ridiculous I know, but it's hard to break that mindset.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:

The instance that I have introduced in this topic has haunted me for a few years. It's hard for me to imagine such a bias against immigrants, yet it's hard for me to understand this story without assuming one. I don't know if I could tell the story without sounding angry and more or less implicitly blaming everyone for it. I however just can't accept that Scots deep down inside are xenophobic. I've experienced plenty of bad, however the balance of my experiences is still very positive.

I think one of the problems is that the UK is a very divided place so it is entirely possible to live and experience life in a completely different way to a person just down the road.

Aberdeen is a particularly odd place. It has (or had) a lot of wealthy people working in the oil industry and has a lot of wealthy people in the wider area and Deeside. On the other side of the city there are areas of relatively extreme poverty. I'm sure the experience of living Aberdeen will be influenced by whereabouts you live and who you mix with.

I think this is the same with many British towns and cities, big or small. It is possible to experience no problems with xenophobia and to find lots of places that are friendly. But it is also possible to live in the same places and experience the reverse.

quote:
I do not believe to have much resentment. I understand fairly well my own failures and successes. I may seem to be blaming Scots a lot, yet it's far from the truth. I owe the country a lot and I do recognize it.

I think you're being entirely fair, don't worry about it.

quote:
I have always thought of SNP as very friendly towards immigrants. I voted for them a few times actually (local elections of various kinds). Then doesn't rule of nationalists (even very moderate ones) implicitly create more intense nationalism?

That's quite hard to know, I think. Welsh and Scottish nationalists often seem to be taking more liberal and socialist positions than Labour or the Tories. But they both seem to struggle to include or involve minorities.

But then this does feel like a general problem - minority immigrant groups often can't vote, so there is not much incentive for political parties to listen to them. And often in places where there are large populations of eg Eastern European migrants, there is a corresponding pressure by UKIP etc.

I don't think the SNP is part of the problem, but it does feel like an issue that is worth considering further.

quote:
My example of course is only one story, about which none of you know much. I thought it would mostly work as an invitation to the discussion of the more general. I mean the UK and Scotland have had a lot of immigration in the past. Those hundreds of thousands (or more? I don't really know) of Indian expats, back in 60s I think, and all the other movements after Britain lost the Empire. One would think that the bias against immigrants would be very slight. I mean all of it happened before and it was fine.

Erm, well no not really. I think it is easier to see the history of race-relations within the UK as hostility towards immigrants followed by a long period where they are forced to live in the worst places and do the worst jobs, followed eventually by uneasy acceptance - as long as not-too-many of them get high status jobs.

The difference with EU migration is that EU law has meant that they've avoided the worst "hostile" phase of the process and have officially had full access to the whole job market and have been able to live wherever they want. In practice, of course, the reality is that many EU migrants are experiencing exactly the same patterns of British inhospitality all over again.

quote:
We can all say that yes, I know this guy who works in the Oil and Gas in a high level position. However I dare anyone to say that there isn't under-representation of foreign workers in management positions in any industry. Sure most Polish immigrants were uneducated and unqualified for much of anything. Then very few international students at University of Aberdeen stayed to work here, huge waste of resources for Scotland.

I think it is actually worse than that. British companies regularly employ extremely highly qualified people from Eastern Europe in low status and relatively poorly paid jobs which have no prospects.

With reference to Aberdeen, I'm sure you are correct that few EU migrants stay, but then geographically the city is quite isolated and there are few local specialist local employers outwith of the oil industry - and that's in decline. I think it would be interesting to see how many Scottish and English students stay in the area after graduation, I'm guessing not many. None of the people I knew when studying in Aberdeen stayed as far as I know, although I think some subsequently returned to Northern Scotland.

quote:
So let me rephrase my old questions. Is there bias or maybe how big is it? Should we care? Does nationalist government implicitly encourage it? Is it much better in England? Does experience of old migrations help elevate tension between new migrants and Brits? I mean I don't think there are many landlords with "No dogs, blacks, Irish and Poles" so that's something, but is it enough?

As I've suggested above, it isn't easy to say whether England is better because it depends exactly where and what you are asking. You might find that London is better - but that might be because London has a much greater mix of cultural and racial groups and a much greater demand for jobs. But then you might also find that it is harder to live there (longer commuting times, higher costs) than in Scotland.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

There may also be an issue of expectation and stereotyping: all recent Polish (or whatever) migrants *are expected to do* entry-level jobs. Ridiculous I know, but it's hard to break that mindset.

Again, I think this might be inbuilt bias.

I know a large British company who seeks Eastern European graduates for mid level jobs. Not minimum wage, but not what we might consider "graduate" wages. They actively recruit them in various ways.

These almost never go anywhere, the jobs are usually fixed contract. I believe that the company isn't really interested in retaining staff in these positions and understands that Eastern European graduates are prepared to work in them for a few years (to improve their English, to get experience of working in the UK, to save some money before moving back home) in a way that less qualified British applicants would not.

Now, on paper it looks like these bright graduates ought to be well qualified for better paid jobs. In practice I think that they're almost never going to get them without first working in the jobs I've described above. This might be as simple as being because they don't have references who can vouch for them in English or have English university qualifications.

I also believe, and would be interested to see research if any existed, that there are a lot of Eastern European graduates (and other workers) who are in financial difficulties in the UK because they can't find sufficient work which pays the bills - which is tending to have the effect of cycling people around, those who are broke being replaced by a new cohort of Eastern European graduates.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
I have always thought of SNP as very friendly towards immigrants. I voted for them a few times actually (local elections of various kinds). Then doesn't rule of nationalists (even very moderate ones) implicitly create more intense nationalism?
That's quite hard to know, I think. Welsh and Scottish nationalists often seem to be taking more liberal and socialist positions than Labour or the Tories. But they both seem to struggle to include or involve minorities.

I think the official position of the SNP and (to a lesser extent) Plaid is one of civic rather than ethnic nationalism, so ostensibly they are more friendly towards residents of different backgrounds - I suppose that there'll always be a tension about how that works itself out on the ground level.

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