Thread: Arrrgh! Kids! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 
(Was going to post this in hell but I think it somehow turned into a cry for help/long self-piteous whinge, so maybe better here...)

Right now, I'm not liking children - especially my own. Of course, to avoid being dogpiled by every living creature and some merely mythical, I should add the disclaimer that I do love them, in some strangled, tortured, millstone-of-obligation-and-responsbility sort of way. But like them? Nope.

They fight, and hurt each other, continuously.
They can never, ever, accept that they might be the tiniest bit to blame for any situation or responsible for any happening*.
When angry, they shout. (And stamp around loudly)
When happy, they shout. (And stamp around loudly)
They fight.
When sad, they cry very shoutily.
When tired, they cry very shoutily.
Did I mention the fighting?
When bored, they sing one or two lines from a particularly earwormy song over and over and over and over for a literally inconceivable period of time. If you ask them to stop, they look at you with utter contempt and then deign to choose two lines from an ABBA song to repeat interminably instead. If this activity pales, they may fall to simply shouting la la la la la la la la la la la as a means of entertainment (this is a particular favourite when going somewhere in the car, for some reason).

If you ask them to stand still, they seem hear 'don't run away', and thus feel they are complying completely, even while hopping from foot to foot, jumping up and down on the spot, windmilling arms, spinning like a ballerina, or violently shaking head from side to side. Which means that it's my fault when they are inevitably injured by a toothbrush or hairbrush.

Putting pyjamas on? Don't want to. Taking pyjamas off? Don't want to either. Ditto for shoes, jackets, clothes of any kind. On a bath night, don't want a bath. On other nights, disappointed no bath is proposed. It's like every-single-tiny-little-thing is a fucking problem, every-single-time. Doesn't matter what I cook for dinner, it's guaranteed that one of them will announce loudly that they hate it, that's it's digusting, will drag themselves to the table in the manner of one summoned to the gallows, and droop weepily all over the place while making a giant performance of eating like a martyr, complete with cacking and gagging and requests for multiple glasses of water to wash it down, even though it is quite likely something they've eaten without complaint in the past.

These are not toddlers, by the way. I feel like I'm being bullied and gaslighted into madness by these doe-eyed little hellspawn, and I've had enough - I want out - I want another job, any job. I see no end in sight to this crap. I know the specifics will change over time, but experience so far doesn't lead me to suspect that it will be better, just different. New curveballs for me to take to the head and upper body. More eloquent insolence, more subtle defiance. More mess, though perhaps fewer crumbs. I don't really feel like I can survive it, most days.

*(Kid 1) "My homework book has disappeared because my room has got too messy!" (Kid 2) "Some poo has got on the floor!" Note that the homework book, the bedroom, and the poo have agency, whereas the kid is a helpless bystander/victim of circumstances beyond their control.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{{{{{{anoesis}}}}}}

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm not a parent, so I don't have any tried and true tips for you.

Just a couple of general ideas: Do you know other parents with whom you can safely vent and commiserate? *Not* pushing you away. But it can help a lot to have someone nearby. Maybe a parental support group, or a therapist?
 

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Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I'm afraid as someone who's childless by choice, I can't be of much help either, and I doubt that the expression "it'll pass" is one that you particularly want to hear.

I reckon GK's suggestion of getting together with other parents of similarly-aged children (preferably without the children being there) might be helpful - at least you can have collective vent! Then again, if the other children were there, you'd maybe find that compared to them, yours are absolute little angels ...

 

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Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
{{{{{{anoesis}}}}}}

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm not a parent, so I don't have any tried and true tips for you.

Just a couple of general ideas: Do you know other parents with whom you can safely vent and commiserate? *Not* pushing you away. But it can help a lot to have someone nearby. Maybe a parental support group, or a therapist?

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Thanks. We have one set of very close friends, who have children of a similar age to ours (and one of theirs is challenging, as is one of ours). They went to live in Toronto last year. I miss them very badly, but it is working out very well for them, so I'm happy for them too. I had about a year and a half of therapy a few years ago and it certainly did do me some good. At that stage the kids were difficult to deal with because of the acting out, tantrums, sleep issues, and so on. In other words, it was a sort of automated defiance. Now I'm getting defiance born out of contempt and derision, it would seem, and it is very hard to bear up under. I don't know why I am placing so much importance on the opinions of people who can't spell single-syllable words - I wouldn't normally - but there you go.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I strongly recommend chocolate, phoning a friend, and locking oneself in the bathroom.

Some days, it's the only way.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
1-2-3 Magic is a brilliant way of dealing with children. I recommend the approach to anyone with children from ages 3 to 13.

It's very 'American' in delivery, but can be adapted and it's spot on when it comes to stopping undesirable behaviours and encouraging desirable ones.

Watch all the videos and take all in and give it a go, you'll be amazed.

I still teach one day a week and it works with any class of 36 stroppy 11 year olds too (always easier at school than home, of course but it's brill at home too)


[ 08. August 2016, 07:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Sorry you're having a hellish time, but have you brought it on yourself by being too nice? Are you too understanding and too child-friendly? Is family life child-centred?

We had (I still have) twins and this tends to nip in the bud any parental whimsy from day one. We wanted children our friends and family would be prepared to have around, not from any altruistic motive but because we valued our social life.

Your situation would seem to need drastic measures which may sound a bit like a boot-camp but perhaps that's the requirement?

• Don't raise your voice except on very rare occasions - I'm talking twice, maybe thrice, a year. Instead, as the noise becomes more extreme speak in ever quieter tones: this particularly applies to requests for things like dirty laundry, what they'd like for lunch (if you offer choice) and instructions to clear away toys, etc.
• If they can read print out instructions on things like toy clearing, and give a suitable penalty that will be applied if the task isn't completed.
• Routine: meals at the table at set times and no snacks; activities on set days at set times; strict bedtime and lights-out.
• Keep rewards to a minimum why offer praise and/or a treat just for the base-line minimum of good behaviour? Keep praise and treats for the important things.
• When your children tell you they hate you (and they will) don't lose it: say they are entitled to their opinion and carry on without comment.
• Assure them that you love them but point out that it is possible to love someone while not liking the way they behave.
• DON'T THREATEN: PROMISE AND KEEP YOUR PROMISES This applies as much to "If you behave I'll give you an apple" as it does to "If you don't bath you won't be allowed to go to the birthday party".

You are the adult, you hold the power so use it.

And make sure you do something for yourself - join an art class, cook your favourite meal, go out for a drink with mates, etc - at least once a week.
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
That sounds interesting, Boogie.

I've aready briefly looked some of the outline.

But, for school purposes: pray tell - what consequence could a '3' have for one of your 'stroppy 11 y olds' at your place of work?

Thanks for elucidating.
 

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Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
Natural consequences can work over the long-haul. Extinction, if you have the patience to use it, is also a useful tool.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Looking at the OP, I'm sorry to say that sounds like a very accurate portrait of me and my brother and sister growing up. I mention this for what hope it may give you--we actually turned into decent human beings and even LIKE each other now (shocking, I know). But living with us must have been hell. And contrary to public opinion, it's not always anything to do with the parent or his/her parenting skills. Sometimes it's just the nature of adolescence. Which sucks.

Be nice to yourself and see if you can arrange some regular respite care--a babysitter, a grandparent, a children's program--and go do something you really enjoy that soothes your nerves. Bubblebath. Bookstores. Seeing a movie all alone in blissful silence.

They'll get through it, and you'll get through it. In the meantime, do what you need to do to keep from snapping.

Have you got a partner of any sort in raising them? A spouse, a godparent or three, a neighbor or beloved auntie? Could they give you a hand? Our church has a "mother's day out" program, as others do, I believe. Could you park them at such a place and go get coffee?

Other coping skills that sometimes help me: 1. Go around and look at them while they are deep asleep and for once out of trouble. At least you get five minutes to remind you why you had them in the first place, and they can't get on your nerves while they're fast asleep. 2. Sarcasm of the deadpan, stress-relieving sort--"why yes, I AM a monster for insisting you clean up your room. How truly terrible for you to be raised by a Nazi." This is only helpful if you have enough self-control to keep the sarcasm impersonal, i.e. not damaging the child's view of himself. The goal is rolling eyes, not tears.

3. Upending their view of the world is occasionally helpful. I recall one day when LL was making a huge martyrdom out of having to practice piano. I snapped, told him he wasn't ALLOWED to practice piano anymore that day, that I was taking away that privilege, and banished him to his room. Utter shock and consternation. But it might work when they're bitching about the meatballs.
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Realizing that what works for one may not work for all, and having grown children myself, and otherwise being out of date and out of order, and incomplete. It sounds like a power struggle, and it isn't supposed to be about power. Like marriage, children can be a threat of "until death part you". I feel for you.

1. Turn everything but basic food and sustenance off by default. All in-the-home stuff. Everything electronic, like internet, game devices, TV. It is all privileged access and earned. After about a week with nothing. Earned in 30 min increments. But that's for later. Parents can't use these things in front of kids for fear of "rubbing it in". Easiest is no electronics.

2. Food is available at meal times, then put away. Eat what there is, go hungry otherwise. Period.

3. Everything books and school is allowed.

4. Full body exercise is required in natural settings. Everyone goes to the park or on the trail. Regardless of weather. Kids and adults both. Everyday.

5. No sympathy for any form of whining, wingeing, poor me. There are no exceptions. Harden your heart because you (want to) love them.

6. Consequences and privileges are all earned. They all short term and generally only in effect for the day. No consequences last multiple days.

7. See a family therapist or behavioural consultant if they are available. They can effectively coach parents to handle children.

8. I bet the kids are unhappy too. But don't let that guilt you into anything and succumb to any manipulation.

-- We've all been through trying times with children, which doesn't minimize your experience presently, but these things do pass. They really do. Never violence, trying to underreact unless someone is bleeding or leaving marks on another child.
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
The fighting sounds familiar. Our two were either best friends or worst enemies. I longed for a midway state of peaceful co-existence. They did grow out of it. A relative with a single child was constantly appalled by their behaviour. That relative, after a big gap, had a further two. They fight as much as my two did.

With food, if they didn't want to eat what was put in front of them, they didn't have to. They were allowed to take something from the fruit bowl instead. That worked for us - any rudeness at the table and their plate would have been removed and the fruit bowl offered instead. We never went head-to-head over food.

One of mine lived by Newton's First Law of Motion; continue until stopped by an opposing force. He didn't want to get into the bath, but once in, he didn't want to get out. He didn't want to start practising a new piano tune, but once started, he didn't want to stop. He didn't want to go out for some fresh air, but once out, he didn't want to come back in. It was very wearing; though at least he was happy so long as I wasn't trying to move him onto the next thing. I think it was just him; not anything to do with my parenting per se.

I think that refusing to stand still for hairbrushing is just one of those things. What age are they? When mine were small enough for me to be cleaning their teeth, I did it with them sitting on my lap, so I could hold them still.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
From my experience (8 and 11 yr old girls - I've been PT at work all through, and the main carer for the last 3 years) L'Organist's points are good, though I don't always manage all of them all the time. The last one in particular is vital - even if you feel a twat (on reflection) for having said it, if you said it, do it. Be careful what you say!

Also 2 hours pain followed by discipline does everyone's head in, whereas 2 mins pain and then 10 mins discipline leaves 1hr 48mins which *might* be OK.

My kids are averagely stroppy - but no special behavioural stuff is going on, so maybe take me with a pinch of salt. My own head is fucked - in part due to unhelpful childhood stuff which can impact my caring - and I've had therapy too, and lost a career! - so I'm with you on that one.

An anecdote - my kids were fighting on the way home from school over a piece of someone's birthday cake. It had not been a good day for me. I didn't really do it right - I might have said (as I try to now) 'you have a minute to sort this out between yourselves, and then I'm going to get involved'. But at least they know what 'get involved' means, as I took the cake and shoved the whole fucking thing into my gob in one go. The screams were mighty and I almost dragged them home by the ears, but...'would you like me to sort this out?' retains something of its power. When I say 'we leave at 8:45 regardless of your state of dress / breakfast' they know I'm serious.

Keep your powder dry and your criticism worth something by praising them whenever they give you an excuse - but ONLY whenever they give you an excuse. And mean it. Some days, after a bad day before, I might even try a charm offensive before school, and it can really work.

Embarrass them, if they're old enough for that to get them. 'Oooh, your tantrum in the supermarket makes me f-f-f-feel like dancing, yeah!!'
 

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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
Also, re food and mealtime hassle. Can you involve them in cooking? I went to University completely unable to cook anything and swore I would never disadvantage my own kids in that way. We taught them to make scrambled egg on toast when they were 7 (no sharp knives, boiling water, or hot ovens!) and simple puddings like sliced banana and yogurt, and they were expected to take their turn cooking something basic (beans on toast type stuff) for the family from about the age of 8.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
That's good advice from NEQ. Mine really like cooking (I don't, much), and younger sis was even polite about her birthday cake (today!) being noticeably decorated by elder sis...once she worked out what it was

The 'that's what tea is, or there might be a rather brown banana, or feel free to wait for breakfast' works well for us too, as does the old standard of 'well, if you're full for first course, you'll not be wanting any pudding...'. Shades of Roger Waters there, perhaps - but an approach which can be taken with a little less...vehemence...whilst retaining its utility!
 

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Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 
Thanks everyone for your advice and sympathy.

L'Organist, I actually practice all of your points and manage them EXCEPT the shouting one. I end up shouting many times a day, and I don't like it - I'm not shouty by nature, but it seems to be the only currency these plonkers understand. Once I'm shouting they get it through their thick skulls that yes, I really do want them to put their shoes on. Why they would doubt this, I have no idea, given that it turns out I really do want them to put their shoes on every single time I ask.

In terms of outlining expected behaviours in a list, and either fining or removing privileges for infractions go, it has worked marvellously - I might even say miraculously - for some things, and just not at all for others. So I am, as usual, confused. Toilet flushing, which had been a continuous problem for, I would guess about two years, for Kid 1, was solved entirely after only two instances of fining pocket money. Getting oneself ready for school in the morning without needing endless nagging has likewise improved noticeably, but not magically. Saying please and thank-you, though? Doesn't work. Had to stop fining for that because they ran into negative territory before a week was up and then there was nothing to hold over their heads for other unacceptable behaviours (and I was fining that at 20% of the rate of the other stuff!).

You're probably also onto something with the sentence at the top of your post. It's not that I want to be buddies with them, particularly, but I do think that part of my angst over all this is that we're in this shitty circular situation where I probably seem like a bear with a sore head most of the time, and I feel like I'm always telling them off. Yet the general consensus seems to be to come down on them harder, which will make me seem even more like lady angry-pants.

[ 08. August 2016, 23:51: Message edited by: anoesis ]
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
This may be totally inapplicable to your situation but I did the fining thing too with my kid, and found the magic touch was when I selected a bad habit of my own and allowed him to fine me when he caught me doing it. (Yes, I picked carefully--my language needed cleaning up)

He was downright gleeful at the prospect of fining his mother, and I made sure he had just enough occasions to do it that he didn't feel the discipline was all going one way. It also allowed him to get out of negative territory when a bad morning put him in the red. Neither of us were ever more than about 5 dollars up or down either way, and it's amazing how his bad habits improved (mine, not so much ). Best of all, I didn't have to yell, because a whisper of "ooh, good, am I going to get a dollar?" would instantly put him in a competitive mood, determined to catch me while not getting caught himself.

ETA: Settling day was Friday, though in the event we always voted to just carry on, as we were usually within a couple bucks of each other score-wise. With multiple kids you could have money bowls on the mantel or some other visible place. Of course the kids should not be allowed to fine one another.

[ 09. August 2016, 05:50: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 

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Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :
 
Shouting creates a vicious circle. (I learnt that the hard way) It means that the kids won't do anything til you shout. So they ignore all the quiet request.

Ask once, then leave them to it. When they learn that inaction has consequences they will sharpen up.

No clean underwear? Oh but I asked you two days ago to bring your laundry down.

You have no lunch for school? Oh golly, you didn't make it? Too bad.

You forgot to wash your hands before supper? Oh, my!

Supper's cold? Tsk, tsk. See above.

It takes a lot of tongue biting, but, if they are intelligent, they'll figure it out.
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
It took me a few years to work this out but kids get surprisingly obedient if you drop the tone of your voice. My natural speaking voice is quite high, so shouting exaggerates it, but I can drop into a Ray Winstone-like growl, and the little darlings behave much better then.

It has the same effect at the office too.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Just standing there (in the beginning for quite long amounts of time, as they aren't yet used to paying attention to you when you're quiet) lowering your head, and unsmiling staring at them under your brows also has an interesting effect. When they finally notice, hold it 30 seconds longer just to unnerve the hell out of them. Then (if you choose) speak softly and menacingly. Or simply turn and walk away, leaving the culprits to the fears of their own imagining.

I taught this ("the Look") to my young son as a way of discouraging bullies at school. I don't think it had much effect THEN (too young), but it is very effective now when he's patrol leader for a band of younger boys. Of course, now he tries to use it on ME...
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wesley J:
That sounds interesting, Boogie.

I've aready briefly looked some of the outline.

But, for school purposes: pray tell - what consequence could a '3' have for one of your 'stroppy 11 y olds' at your place of work?

Thanks for elucidating.

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Stroppy 11 year olds don't particularly care what the teacher thinks of them, they are - by and large - looking for the approval of their peers.

They especially don't care what a supply art teacher who only comes in one day a week thinks of them.

We rarely get to '3' because they hate the consequences of it.

On the first 3 they sit by me, where none of the class can see them, for ten minutes. If they get to a second 3 - which usually only happens at the beginning of a year when they don't know me - they are sent out of the room to stand outside a (glass) door facing outwards where they can't see their peers but I can see them, and there's a chance the headteacher may walk past and ask why. On the rare occasions we get to a third 3 I send them to another class, which they hate.

I have a good system of rewards. A raffle at the end of the day, 3 prizes - things kids like. A ball, a stretchy man etc. It costs me very little. I give out raffle tickets liberally for good behaviour (not good work, I expect that, just for good behaviour). It takes advantage of the natural human (and other mammals) instinct to gamble and work harder for intermittent rewards. I give every child two raffle tickets at the beginning of the lesson. Any child who gets to a 3 is disqualified from the raffle.

They get lots of raffle tickets for quick compliance to easy instructions eg "put your paintbrushes down and look this way". It takes seconds to comply with that so all eyes should be on me as soon as I've said it. Raffle tickets go to the fastest, but not every time.

This quick, whole class response is very impressive when visitors come in to the room to speak to the class
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
They get lots of raffle tickets for quick compliance to easy instructions eg "put your paintbrushes down and look this way". It takes seconds to comply with that so all eyes should be on me as soon as I've said it. Raffle tickets go to the fastest, but not every time.

This quick, whole class response is very impressive when visitors come in to the room to speak to the class

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• no pudding for anyone not hungry enough to eat a main course;
• unless you've tried it you can't say you don't like it;
• if you really don't like the cooked meal, there is a slice of bread and peanut butter

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I also had similar tactics about food and meal times:

• no pudding for anyone not hungry enough to eat a main course;
• unless you've tried it you can't say you don't like it;
• if you really don't like the cooked meal, there is a slice of bread and peanut butter

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That will be very useful when my kid is older. But right now, age 1, he'd live on peanut butter.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
They get lots of raffle tickets for quick compliance to easy instructions eg "put your paintbrushes down and look this way". It takes seconds to comply with that so all eyes should be on me as soon as I've said it. Raffle tickets go to the fastest, but not every time.

This quick, whole class response is very impressive when visitors come in to the room to speak to the class

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Out of interest how does that fit with your colleagues' approaches - do they find that the kids expect some kind of incentive/reward in class and behave less well with teachers who don't give one? Or do the kids understand that this is just something that you as a visiting, one-day-a-week person are doing of your own accord?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
On one appalling day, when they were all younger, i once changed the clock thus ensuring that at least bedtime arrived earlier that day.

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I assume that was before clocks could be found on every appliance in the house.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think it's a bit sad that schoolchildren these days have to have so many incentives to behave. It wasn't like that when our generation were at school. Nobody ever handed out raffle tickets in lessons, we just got on with it. What's changed? The fear of corporal punishment having gone, less respect for adults generally, or something else?
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
I'm not sure - but our kids' (RC) primary is a much more loving place than my own (1975-1982) - notwithstanding some teachers I recall with affection. Then again, I have 2 girls and maybe the boys are still animals.
 

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Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
When my Mum was being driven mad by us kids, I remember her singing very loudly "A million housewives every day, pick up a can of beans and say, "I can't cope any more"." The original was from an advert when Beans means Heinz.

I do sympathise with the cycle of shouting. My own problem is that I can be a bit of a pushover (especially with the youngest, who is 4). So I will set a bathtime, then move it 10 minutes when he complains. I need to be much firmer, I think it works well when everyone knows where they stand.

With meals, with the older 2, it was a case of "This is dinner. If you don't like it, there's bread & butter, yoghurt, and fruit". It worked really well with them. I do sort of follow it with no3, but he's fussier & I'm a bit of a pushover there too. Luckily the older 2 are sufficiently older not to remember...

An excellent piece of advice I had for dealing with difficult patients was - if nothing else, make sure the patient feels heard. I'm adapting that for the kids to - if nothing else, make sure the child feels you're pleased to see them. It's really helped with the stroppy teenager. (She says, touching wood frantically).
 

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Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
I'm off now to wrestle the 4 year old into the bath. He's another that takes forever to get in, and once in, takes forever to get out. And yes, bathtime is already 20 minutes later than I said it would be. Tut tut.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cottontail:
Re. the shouty thing. As a former teacher, I developed a technique with a class of 12 year olds who were somewhat on the wild side! I discovered quickly that shouting just made them more anxious and unsettled - but equally, that if I wasn't shouting, they didn't think I was serious in my instructions.

So I would ask them, pleasantly and clearly, to do something: to read quietly, for example. When I was ignored, or when the instruction was only briefly obeyed, I would stop everything and call them to attention, and say something like this: "Now, you are all making a very interesting mistake. You think, because I asked nicely, that I didn't really mean it. But I did mean it. I really do want you to read quietly, and you all understood what I said. Now, if you would rather that I shouted, then I can shout. But I don't think you really want that. So I will say it again, and I'll say it nicely: I want you to read quietly. Is that clear?"

Over time, and in combination with a whole lot of other techniques of course, this really did work.

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Holy cow, I've made this same exact speech before.

Last week I was in a class full of kids 18 given to shouting over each other ( and the teacher) and after two days of routine stuff ( I will stop reading the book till it's quiet, I won't pass the milk till you ask in a nice voice, I can't hear anyone when everyone talks at once) I realized I needed to up my game. So, just before reading a call and response type book, I put up my hand and went "WAIT, LISTEN!"

The kids fell silent, wildly curious as to what I wanted them to listen to. I then whispered, " Do you hear how quiet it is?"
I asked them to listen for noises when n the room, and noises out of the room, and had them whisper to me in response to my question. I then asked if the room felt different when it was quiet, and the first response I got was "It feels better."
Yes, I said, people need quiet once in a while because it makes them feel better, calmer. We then read the book together whispering. (As I said, there was a group response involved in the story.)

Jacobsen, boy I love that long post above. Agree with every word.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Meh. I was watching my son's high school marching band lined up in their best uniforms to go into the auditorium, and while they were waiting one idiot was throwing a waterbottle into the air and deliberately letting it crash on the floor. Multiple zillion times. One of those really thin plastic cheap ones, you know?

And the rest of the chuckleheads were just laughing and egging him on.

I had to sit on both my hands to keep from going over there and saying "WTF!!!???" and taking the bloody thing away from him. Not only on account of general annoyingness and destruction, but you are wearing a brand freaking new uniform and so is everyone around you, 30 seconds from concert time.

I used the time to meditate on the under-development of the frontal lobes of the teenage brain.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
....meditating on the underdeveloped frontal lobes of teenagers..
i LIKE that one!

[ tangent alert on: Pigwidgeon, That was indeed before the days when clocks were on every appliance around the home. Although, a good few years later (when clocks Were on almost every appliance in the home) my eldest spoofed the entire family into believing that Christmas Day started far later than it really did. Quite how he managed to change every clock appliance and watch in the home...i have yet to find out! tangent off]
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Oh and i second the alternative options with regard to meal times. I just couldn't countenance dealing with mealtime hassles.

That said......the only reason i could not countenance it, was that i made every single last mistake in the book with the eldest two around mealtimes. Including attempting to force feed a toddler.




By the time we had All recovered from that.....battles were removed from the dining table
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I have a very food intolerant daughter, so not liking things could be a reaction. She reminded me her alternative meal was rice cakes and peanut butter plus fruit. Not exciting, fairly nutritious, all stuff she can eat.

I've also watched my sisters force fed and one sister, who went on to be anorexic, plus my daughter sit in front of the same reheated meal 5 meals in succession. Nothing else was on offer.

Often the solution to these situations is having an action plan and sticking to it. Mine was not getting into battles over food. If you don't want the meal wasted you can always freeze it for another day - work lunch with no screaming children nearby. A calm, "Well that sorts out my lunch for tomorrow" cools tempers quickly.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
The phrase around my house is "More for me!" along with mock-sympathetic expressions of concern that the person is SO FULL they won't be able to have any ice cream, oh woe. To every protest the answer is a sad shake of the head and a soothing, "That's all right, darling. We know you're being brave about it, but you're clearly not hungry, so we won't force ice cream on you."

Sometimes I wonder I haven't been assaulted by now.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cottontail:
Re. the shouty thing. As a former teacher, I developed a technique with a class of 12 year olds who were somewhat on the wild side! I discovered quickly that shouting just made them more anxious and unsettled - but equally, that if I wasn't shouting, they didn't think I was serious in my instructions.

So I would ask them, pleasantly and clearly, to do something: to read quietly, for example. When I was ignored, or when the instruction was only briefly obeyed, I would stop everything and call them to attention, and say something like this: "Now, you are all making a very interesting mistake. You think, because I asked nicely, that I didn't really mean it. But I did mean it. I really do want you to read quietly, and you all understood what I said. Now, if you would rather that I shouted, then I can shout. But I don't think you really want that. So I will say it again, and I'll say it nicely: I want you to read quietly. Is that clear?"

Over time, and in combination with a whole lot of other techniques of course, this really did work.

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Holy cow, I've made this same exact speech before.

Last week I was in a class full of kids 18 given to shouting over each other ( and the teacher) and after two days of routine stuff ( I will stop reading the book till it's quiet, I won't pass the milk till you ask in a nice voice, I can't hear anyone when everyone talks at once) I realized I needed to up my game. So, just before reading a call and response type book, I put up my hand and went "WAIT, LISTEN!"

The kids fell silent, wildly curious as to what I wanted them to listen to. I then whispered, " Do you hear how quiet it is?"
I asked them to listen for noises when n the room, and noises out of the room, and had them whisper to me in response to my question. I then asked if the room felt different when it was quiet, and the first response I got was "It feels better."
Yes, I said, people need quiet once in a while because it makes them feel better, calmer. We then read the book together whispering. (As I said, there was a group response involved in the story.)

Jacobsen, boy I love that long post above. Agree with every word.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Jemima! I meant Jemima!

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I'm so glad you clarified that, I searched for ages for the mythical Jacobsen post and thought I was losing my marbles. Still think I am, but not as acutely

Huia
 

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Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
Ah, we're all marbles part lost here at least (I think).
Thanks Kelly.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
A wise Mum!



 

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Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
A wise Mum!

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I was not given permission to read this blog. Any way of unlocking it?
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Oooooops!

Trying again!


 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jacobsen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
A wise Mum!

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I was not given permission to read this blog. Any way of unlocking it?

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She'll unlock it for you after you clean the kitchen.

 

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