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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Football's third homosexual
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
So, we now have our third ever professional footballer who has come out.
If as a Christian I'm embarrassed by how the church has treated LGBTs, as a football fan I am even more so. Football makes the church look positively progressive.
For those that don't know, the first footballer to come out was Justin Fashanu , who hanged himself.
The second was Anton Hysen, who plays in Swedish lower leagues, and actually seems to be doing okay.
Now Robbie Rogers has come out. He felt so liberated by the football community that he quit a month before coming out, feeling that it would be impossible to be gay (& out) and a footballer at the same time.
Is any other sport as backwards as football (I mean, aside from all this, there is the farce that is FIFA)?
Whether or not people think homosexuality is okay or not, how can it be that such a large important institution still has such a strong "no gays allowed" ethos? It's appalling.
How long will it be before a high profile footballer comes out, whilst they're still playing, and what would the reaction be? Is Robbie right to have been so apprehensive to have quit?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The Australian Football League (AFL / Aussie Rules football) hasn't had a single out player, so you're not alone in FIFA land.
I think the Australian Rugby League has had just one - Ian Roberts. He came out in 1995 and finished playing in 1998, so there's a fair gap since then.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
I don't think there are any out members of Anglican Mainstream or Reform or the Church Society ;-)
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Having watched part of a game once, I have always assumed that CFL and even NFL players were gay. They are running around the field in tight white pants, continually passing the ball between their legs, posturing in a most singular manner, then going off to take showers together. What is surprising is that, given this on-field behaviour, there are any straight ones among them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
....not to mention all the kissing and cuddling in the 70s when someone scored a goal .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Having watched part of a game once, I have always assumed that CFL and even NFL players were gay.
That reminds me of an interview given by a professional baseball player a few years ago. Someone asked him how he'd feel about playing with a gay teammate. His response was that he'd been playing professional ball for a number of years and had been traded twice, so he just assumed that somewhere along the line he had been playing alongside a gay teammate.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I would assume the level of physicality and communal nakedness is the reason why the environment is so hostile. If your team mates weren't going to see you naked or share a bath with you, you might not be so worried about someone making a pass at you or thinking you were gay. Also if you happen to think of gay men as predatory - if you weren't naked with them you'd be less worried about the possibility of indecent assault or rape.
Quite possibility the innovation that would most promote tolerance would be changing cubicles and shower stalls.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I would assume the level of physicality and communal nakedness is the reason why the environment is so hostile. If your team mates weren't going to see you naked or share a bath with you, you might not be so worried about someone making a pass at you or thinking you were gay. Also if you happen to think of gay men as predatory - if you weren't naked with them you'd be less worried about the possibility of indecent assault or rape.
Quite possibility the innovation that would most promote tolerance would be changing cubicles and shower stalls.
Apparently, open showers are preferred by administrators and coaches over shower stalls to prevent Inappropriateness between team-mates as well as Solitary Vice. Gym teachers have told me that they are much easier to supervise. Women's locker rooms are more likely to have cubicles and shower stalls as, presumably, they are less likely to misbehave.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Which just goes to show gender stereotypes are alive and well - and people have some odd attitudes to masturbation. Also we are talking about facility provision for adults here.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Which just goes to show gender stereotypes are alive and well - and people have some odd attitudes to masturbation. Also we are talking about facility provision for adults here.
The same approach applies in the Canadian (at least) military and at universities (whether or not students and servicemen and women are adults I will leave to others for discussion). My expertise on this arcane topic stems from having to sit through a presentation of papers on homosexuality in sport at a sports studies conference at the Learneds (I think in Edmonton, but can't remember which year). One paper told us that homophobic sentiment was at its highest in CFL/NFL football, but lowest in tennis and roller derby, which had the highest proportion of participation of out-of-closet gays. Hockey, however, had the highest rate of Improper Behaviour of coaches, with track coming a close second. I suspect more precise research has taken place since the 2005 session I attended.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Quite possibility the innovation that would most promote tolerance would be changing cubicles and shower stalls.
I think that's a really interesting suggestion! But given how backwards FIFA have been over introducing goal-line & video technology, I can't imagine it being trialled in the near future.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Does washing naked next to each-other have any bearing on our sexual persuasion, behaviour , desire or whatever ?
AIUI that is not how it works.
Given the mentality of the average football crowd , in the decades I've had a passing interest , I don't think any professional footballer can be blamed for not wanting to broadcast the fact that they are gay.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Does washing naked next to each-other have any bearing on our sexual persuasion, behaviour , desire or whatever ?
AIUI that is not how it works.
Given the mentality of the average football crowd , in the decades I've had a passing interest , I don't think any professional footballer can be blamed for not wanting to broadcast the fact that they are gay.
I don't think that was what was suggested, only that it would be a measure to make the environment slightly less hostile to gay people.
Gareth southgate too suggests that the main problem would be fans, not players. I'm not sure. I think the vast majority would be fine - just that all it takes is a vocal minority, and it doesn't take much of a minority to be vocal in terms of abusive chants at matches. With players, you've got a lot of different nationalities represented. That's a plus, in terms of diversity already existing, but a minus in that many of those countries are a lot less tolerant of homosexuality than the UK.
FIFA obviously don't give much of a crap. There's no campaign to the level of Kick It Out (racism). And Sepp Blatter's comments over the World Cup in Qatar shows where he's at.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Gareth southgate too suggests that the main problem would be fans, not players.
The Secret Footballer agrees. Players are a mixed bunch, and some will get on better than others, but they're all ultimately doing a job. If there's an insurmountable problem in the team (which is unlikely, but not out of the question), someone could be transferred to sort it out. But there will always be idiot fans, from the opposition if not your own. Look at some of the chants directed at Sol Campbell.
I've been thinking about the parallels with terrace racism in the 70s/80s, when monkey chants and bananas were sadly common. Exposure to black players and action against offenders reduced the problem to occasional toxic flare-ups, but it's not completely gone away. If you were a gay footballer, and you could stay closeted, you'd have to be brave to come out and (possibly) condemn yourself to a career of abuse and focus on who you like to make sexyfuntime with.
Worse, the racism example suggests that part of what changes attitudes is for the person or quality you're abusing to be considered normal. The more "out" players, the better. But when (unlike black players) gay footballers can avoid comment by keeping quiet, they're caught in a form of Prisoner's Dilemma. It would be best for everyone if they all came out together, but if just one person does it on his own, he gets the pain without the benefit.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Does washing naked next to each-other have any bearing on our sexual persuasion, behaviour , desire or whatever ?
AIUI that is not how it works.
No it doesn't, but a lot of people who are prejudiced about homosexuality believe at some level that it does. There are people who are genuinely afraid and/or disgusted that if they are naked in front of gay people - those gay people will try to make sexual advances that are either unwanted or violent. Alternatively, that those gay people will fantasise about them.
If you have a changing siutation where that is not going to happen (because you won't see each other naked) - then having an openly gay person there may be much less intelorable for those people.
Which would mean it would become more possible for a player to disclose their sexuality, which then means there is more chance of knowingly playing and working alongside someone known to be gay - and eventually forming opinions about the issue based on actual experience rather than fears and imaginings.
(Frankly, as a woman, I find the set-up rather odd anyway. It's like urinals, I would be incredibly inhibited if I was expected to pee in a toilet that gave 'privacy' by having no door but you walked round the side facing the wall. And I can think of no circumstances in which I would want to share a bath with 15 other people covered in mud. At no point in my life have I ever been expected to do this.)
[ 02. April 2013, 16:40: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
No it doesn't, but a lot of people who are prejudiced about homosexuality believe at some level that it does. There are people who are genuinely afraid and/or disgusted that if they are naked in front of gay people - those gay people will try to make sexual advances that are either unwanted or violent. Alternatively, that those gay people will fantasise about them.
I've heard 'homophobia' defined as "a man's fear that male homosexuals will treat him the same way he treats women".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Yes, I thought that was what you were driving at DT but didn't quite get it .
I think there's a significant view that has ,over the years , (with cuddling after goal-scoring and communal baths), developed into a giggling culture that surrounds the sexual persuasion of footballers.
Gumby is right in saying gay players have chosen to stay silent because they've seen the terrace mauling black players have endured from the single brain-celled minority.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The same approach applies in the Canadian (at least) military and at universities (whether or not students and servicemen and women are adults I will leave to others for discussion). My expertise on this arcane topic stems from having to sit through a presentation of papers on homosexuality in sport at a sports studies conference at the Learneds (I think in Edmonton, but can't remember which year). One paper told us that homophobic sentiment was at its highest in CFL/NFL football, but lowest in tennis and roller derby, which had the highest proportion of participation of out-of-closet gays. Hockey, however, had the highest rate of Improper Behaviour of coaches, with track coming a close second. I suspect more precise research has taken place since the 2005 session I attended.
There's a gender split I think. Though not confirmed. The wisdom seemed to be that female hockey players and wrestlers (etc) were all lesbian, and limited issue with it; more acceptance. I base this on the last two Olympics, where a broadcaster and former Olympian relative discussed same with a large group of my children and friends in their teens and 20s.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Having watched part of a game once, I have always assumed that CFL and even NFL players were gay. They are running around the field in tight white pants, continually passing the ball between their legs, posturing in a most singular manner, then going off to take showers together.
Don't forget the pink football boots and long hair which seems to be all the rage among American footballers as well. They could start a new team called the Bandits.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
So, I'm kind of sad Robbie felt the need to quit at the same time he came out.
Having said that, what I think a lot of people don't understand is that living in the closet is BLOODY EXHAUSTING. Emotionally and mentally. As I've seen reported, he told no one while he was playing at some of the highest levels of a sport that is very physically taxing.
The kid's 25. He's out. He's getting to know himself and living without that constant adrenal blast.
I fully expect and hold out hope that in a year or two for Robbie to come back to Major League Soccer in the US. I would love to have him as a member of the Portland Timbers, whose supporters group the Timbers Army won Gay4Soccer's Ally of the Year 2012, as I am a proud, loud member of the TA. But even if he plays for that Fishing Village Up North, I would cheer him coming on the field.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
The kid's 25. He's out. He's getting to know himself and living without that constant adrenal blast.
I'm just glad that his family (devout Catholics) have loved and accepted him, and that he doesn't seem to have lost his own faith either. That's the kind of thing that can make or break you.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Gareth southgate too suggests that the main problem would be fans, not players.
The Secret Footballer agrees. Players are a mixed bunch, and some will get on better than others, but they're all ultimately doing a job. If there's an insurmountable problem in the team (which is unlikely, but not out of the question), someone could be transferred to sort it out. But there will always be idiot fans, from the opposition if not your own. Look at some of the chants directed at Sol Campbell.
I've been thinking about the parallels with terrace racism in the 70s/80s, when monkey chants and bananas were sadly common. Exposure to black players and action against offenders reduced the problem to occasional toxic flare-ups, but it's not completely gone away. If you were a gay footballer, and you could stay closeted, you'd have to be brave to come out and (possibly) condemn yourself to a career of abuse and focus on who you like to make sexyfuntime with.
Worse, the racism example suggests that part of what changes attitudes is for the person or quality you're abusing to be considered normal. The more "out" players, the better. But when (unlike black players) gay footballers can avoid comment by keeping quiet, they're caught in a form of Prisoner's Dilemma. It would be best for everyone if they all came out together, but if just one person does it on his own, he gets the pain without the benefit.
Indeed. Brighton & Hove Albion frequently encounter homophobic chanting - not because any of the players are openly gay, but because Brighton is so associated with the gay scene. I used to live in East Sussex and it was common to hear homophobic jokes about protecting one's bum if they were going into Brighton for any reason. I actually heard fellow church members make those kind of jokes (not at church itself) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've heard 'homophobia' defined as "a man's fear that male homosexuals will treat him the same way he treats women".
Bingo.
There's also a classic comic strip that epitomises the coming out dilemma in this kind of bloke culture: if a gay guy fancies a straight guy, the straight guy is worried. If a gay guy doesn't fancy the straight guy, the straight guy is offended.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Having said that, what I think a lot of people don't understand is that living in the closet is BLOODY EXHAUSTING.
I didn't understand how exhausting it was until I stopped doing it!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've heard 'homophobia' defined as "a man's fear that male homosexuals will treat him the same way he treats women".
Bingo.
There's also a classic comic strip that epitomises the coming out dilemma in this kind of bloke culture: if a gay guy fancies a straight guy, the straight guy is worried. If a gay guy doesn't fancy the straight guy, the straight guy is offended.
I also wonder if homophobia doesn't have it's roots in the fact that heteros have a deeply held worry that they might find gay sex more enjoyable than hetero sex.
The problem for gay footballers though is that a baying mob of supporters isn't all that interested in the finer points homophobia .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I also wonder if homophobia doesn't have it's roots in the fact that heteros have a deeply held worry that they might find gay sex more enjoyable than hetero sex.
Are you supposing that another man would, maybe, know better than a woman how to give sexual pleasure to a man?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
]I also wonder if homophobia doesn't have it's roots in the fact that heteros have a deeply held worry that they might find gay sex more enjoyable than hetero sex.
That's a pretty interesting fact Rolyn. Any evidence for it?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is said that men give better BJs.
Also that women never, ever go anywhere near a man's G spot because of where it is situated.
I am Reliably Informed by friends whose behaviour is not characterized by assiduous deference to their confessors' advice that, on both counts, it is better not to generalize.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Are you supposing that another man would, maybe, know better than a woman how to give sexual pleasure to a man?
I guess that could be what I have in mind . Although I'm also thinking of women having a better knowledge of what pleases a another woman as-well . It stands to reason when you think about how different men and women actually are.
I'm not suggesting we all embark on some sort of Freudian experiment and 'try out' same sex liaisons just to see what it's like. It's more the acknowledgment that such possibilities exist that could go someway towards eradicating homophobia.
If we take away the alpha male ' keep the herd strong ' bit , homophobia can't simply be -- *That person is different from me therefore I hate him (or her)*. I strongly suspect the politics of envy are lurking in there somewhere.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
And from the U.S. there's this. Jason Collins of the NBA has become the first openly gay player in one of the Big 4 (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) professional sports leagues.
quote:
I'm a 34-year-old NBA center. I'm black. And I'm gay.
I didn't set out to be the first openly gay athlete playing in a major American team sport. But since I am, I'm happy to start the conversation. I wish I wasn't the kid in the classroom raising his hand and saying, "I'm different." If I had my way, someone else would have already done this. Nobody has, which is why I'm raising my hand.
My journey of self-discovery and self-acknowledgement began in my hometown of Los Angeles and has taken me through two state high school championships, the NCAA Final Four and the Elite Eight, and nine playoffs in 12 NBA seasons.
I've played for six pro teams and have appeared in two NBA Finals. Ever heard of a parlor game called Three Degrees of Jason Collins? If you're in the league, and I haven't been your teammate, I surely have been one of your teammates' teammates. Or one of your teammates' teammates' teammates.
<snip>
I realized I needed to go public when Joe Kennedy, my old roommate at Stanford and now a Massachusetts congressman, told me he had just marched in Boston's 2012 Gay Pride Parade. I'm seldom jealous of others, but hearing what Joe had done filled me with envy. I was proud of him for participating but angry that as a closeted gay man I couldn't even cheer my straight friend on as a spectator. If I'd been questioned, I would have concocted half truths. What a shame to have to lie at a celebration of pride. I want to do the right thing and not hide anymore. I want to march for tolerance, acceptance and understanding. I want to take a stand and say, "Me, too."
The recent Boston Marathon bombing reinforced the notion that I shouldn't wait for the circumstances of my coming out to be perfect. Things can change in an instant, so why not live truthfully? When I told Joe a few weeks ago that I was gay, he was grateful that I trusted him. He asked me to join him in 2013. We'll be marching on June 8.
<snip>
Some people insist they've never met a gay person. But Three Degrees of Jason Collins dictates that no NBA player can claim that anymore. Pro basketball is a family. And pretty much every family I know has a brother, sister or cousin who's gay. In the brotherhood of the NBA, I just happen to be the one who's out.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
![[Cool]](cool.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
When Jason Collins said that some folks claim they have never met anyone who is gay, it reminded me of when Queer Eye did a make-over on a Texas fraternity. Their fraternity liaison made a pleasant albeit naive little speech saying that he had never met a gay guy before, but that he was very pleased to meet and get to know the Queer Eye team. I snorted. Yeah, right. And I bet that the Fab Five had to keep a lid on their laughter, themselves.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think I just became a fan of an NBA team.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Good for Jason. Though an ESPN commentator, Chris Broussard, made some remarks denying Jason's Christianity.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Good for Jason. Though an ESPN commentator, Chris Broussard, made some remarks denying Jason's Christianity.
He did what? A sportsman's religious beliefs and/or the state of his soul are relevant to analysing the game now?
Sometimes, America scares me.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Good for Jason. Though an ESPN commentator, Chris Broussard, made some remarks denying Jason's Christianity.
He did what? A sportsman's religious beliefs and/or the state of his soul are relevant to analysing the game now?
Sometimes, America scares me.
Well admittedly the aired discussion wasn't on analyzing his game (he is a stalwart but not a star) but discussing his coming out. Broussard was very clear on his views on the state of Jason's soul also something about unrepentant sinner and open rebellion against Jesus. Jason is fortunate that his family accepts him (not so sure what his church's reaction is or will be) and that most of the initial reaction has been supportive.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Good for Jason. Though an ESPN commentator, Chris Broussard, made some remarks denying Jason's Christianity.
He did what? A sportsman's religious beliefs and/or the state of his soul are relevant to analysing the game now?
Sometimes, America scares me.
Well admittedly the aired discussion wasn't on analyzing his game (he is a stalwart but not a star) but discussing his coming out. Broussard was very clear on his views on the state of Jason's soul also something about unrepentant sinner and open rebellion against Jesus. Jason is fortunate that his family accepts him (not so sure what his church's reaction is or will be) and that most of the initial reaction has been supportive.
So as a sports commentator it's his job to give his views on sexual orientation and its religious implications? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I'm now trying to imagine the smug golf buddies on Match of the Day saying anything similar, and my brain is rebelling in a very big way.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Good for Jason. Though an ESPN commentator, Chris Broussard, made some remarks denying Jason's Christianity.
Ugly, ugly, ugly. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
And is Broussard in "open rebellion" against Jesus Christ by not loving his neighbor as himself?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It should be noted that many female athletes such as Martina Navratilova have been out for decades.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It should be noted that many female athletes such as Martina Navratilova have been out for decades.
And male athletes in some less popular sports though that is a bit more recent.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
An interesting item. You know how the anti-gay folks are always claiming dire economic consequences will follow the gayification of any institution?
quote:
Washington Wizards center Jason Collins’ jerseys got a boost in online sales after he became the first openly gay athlete on a major U.S. team sport.
Team spokesman Scott Hall told ABC News that 100 percent of custom jerseys ordered from the team’s online store bore Collins’ name and number, 98, on the back, after Collins revealed his homosexuality in an article published on Sports Illustrated’s website on Monday.
Collins began the first-person article, “I’m a 34-year-old NBA center. I’m black. And I’m gay.”
While Hall could not reveal how many custom Collins jerseys were sold, he said that the team’s general merchandise sales and online traffic spiked following Collins’ announcement.
Hopefully the Wizards will be able to weather this economic tempest. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Croesus: quote:
An interesting item. You know how the anti-gay folks are always claiming dire economic consequences will follow the gayification of any institution?
Yeah, you notice how dire Disney profits have been since offering gay partner health benefits since 1995. They are going under any minute now...any minute...
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Croesus: quote:
An interesting item. You know how the anti-gay folks are always claiming dire economic consequences will follow the gayification of any institution?
Yeah, you notice how dire Disney profits have been since offering gay partner health benefits since 1995. They are going under any minute now...any minute...
Stanford University hasn't been doing too badly since they started offering benefits to domestic partners in 1993 (they announced it in Dec. 1992) and first commitment ceremony in the university church in September 1993 (they also managed at least one marriage during the brief window same-sex couples could get married in California). One surprise to me is how long it took Jason Collins to come out given that he had gone to Stanford; however, some areas at Stanford have lagged behind.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Because I believe in recycling, I'm bumping this thread to cover a development in the other football*:
quote:
Coaches at the University of Missouri divided players into small groups at a preseason football practice last year for a team-building exercise. One by one, players were asked to talk about themselves — where they grew up, why they chose Missouri and what others might not know about them.
As Michael Sam, a defensive lineman, began to speak, he balled up a piece of paper in his hands. “I’m gay,” he said. With that, Mr. Sam set himself on a path to become the first publicly gay player in the National Football League.
“I looked in their eyes, and they just started shaking their heads — like, finally, he came out,” Mr. Sam said Sunday in an interview with The New York Times, the first time he had spoken publicly about his sexual orientation.
Mr. Sam, a senior who was listed at 6 feet 2 inches and 260 pounds, had a stellar season as Missouri finished 12-2 and won the Cotton Bowl. He was a first-team all-American and was named the Associated Press defensive player of the year in the Southeastern Conference, widely considered the top league in college football. Teammates voted him Missouri’s most valuable player.
Now Mr. Sam enters an uncharted area of the sports landscape. He is making his public declaration before he is drafted, to the potential detriment to his professional career. And he is doing so as he prepares to enter a league with an overtly macho culture, where controversies over homophobia have attracted recent attention.
So, if drafted Mr. Sam would be the first NFL to be openly gay during his playing career. Cue the freakout by the usual collection of homophobes and those with anxious masculinity issues.
Over at The Atlantic Ta-Nehisi Coates has a column on why waiting for the powers-that-be to be "ready" to stop discriminating is a sucker's bet.
quote:
The mythology [anti-gay NFL linebacker] Jonathan Vilma endorses will not fade through vague endorsements of "tolerance," lectures on "acceptance," nor any other species of heartfelt magic. The question which we so often have been offered — is the NFL ready for a gay player? — is backwards. Powerful interests are rarely "ready" for change, so much as they are assaulted by it. We refer to barriers being "broken" for a reason. The reason is not because great powers generally like to unbar the gates and hold a picnic in the honor of the previously excluded. The NFL has no moral right to be "ready" for a gay player, which is to say it has no right to discriminate against gay men at its leisure which anyone is bound to respect.
At The Prospect Scott Lemieux details the bad faith being advanced in favor of anti-gay discrimination thus far. Most of them involve passing the discrimination buck to someone else.
quote:
Of course, these anonymous executives and coaches who spoke to Sports Illustrated cloaked their bias in various passive-aggressive evasions. A gay player would "chemically imbalance an NFL locker room and meeting room" said one. "[D]o you really want to be the top of the conversation for everything without ever having played a down in this league?" asked another. It's not that these decision makers are biased, mind you — there are rumors that some of their best friends are gay! — but the prejudices of existing players must be accommodated, and the media attention generated by Sam would just be too much of a distraction.
<snip>
Indeed, what particularly strange about the argument that "my team isn't ready for a gay player" is that the people making it don't seem to recognize what it says about their teams. Asserting that you have a coaching staff who would be happy to let homophobic bullies tear the team apart, or a roster full of players to whom petty prejudices are more important than winning, suggests problems that avoiding Michael Sam in the draft sure won't solve. Not only is announcing your intent to discriminate immoral, it shows how little you think of your employees or co-workers. Saying that your team isn't ready for Michael Sam isn't about winning; among other things, it involves calling your team dyed-in-the-wool losers.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the NFL draft, scheduled to take place in May.
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*The New York Times has a ridiculous paywall that allows non-subscribers to view ten Times articles per calendar month. Only click through if you're a NYT subscriber or feel like spending one of your ten monthly Times passes.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
I've often thought it odd that the NFL, with all its anti-gay sentiment, hosts the Combine. A cross between a slave auction and a casting call for a gay porn film.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Interesting back story to Michael Sam's coming out was that many of his teammates already knew or at least suspected he was gay. When he formally came out, the collective reaction was, "Finally." I note there were no significant defections from the team, if any. If Michael Sams can play at Division I level, there is no reason not to believe he will be a good player at the professional level.
It is worth noting that professional players have expressed openness and support of Michael's revelation. Some of the older coaches seem hesitant.
It is my bet Michael will be picked up by a younger team and a forward thinking coaching staff. The Seahawks will take him, I think.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Some articles I have read spoke of NFL player support, others of player rejection. There may be some of coach/front office support, but I have not heard it.
I think Mr. Sam very brave for having come out when he did. I do hope it works well for him.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And in another football, Ian Roberts, a first grade Rugby League player here, came out publicly 20 years or so ago, and had been out to his team before that.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
While looking for a different Onion News Network piece, I discovered that they have recently issued a rather cutting take on this subject.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I'm a lesbian and I HATE being naked at the gym with other women. I really don't care to see their bushes and their tits swinging away... ugh. It just makes me uncomfortable. I walk around my own apartment in the nude all the time (with the shades down, of course!) but I was never one of those gay women who gets all turned on by the sight of ANY nude woman, anywhere. I can look at pictures of a partially nude Angelina Jolie and say, "Wow! She looks nice!" but I don't know how I'd react if she was standing in front of me, naked at the gym.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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