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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: ally still in the closet
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
Went to my small group this evening, and experienced yet another week where the gay thing came up - but, as always, in a side conversation that I wasn't really part of, that didn't last very long, and where my butting in to point out what I think would have changed the whole course of the evening, so I kept my mouth shut.
Or, at least, that's how I put it inside my own head. Partially true, but partially just a rationalisation, because I like keeping my mouth shut.
The thing is, various members of my small group have a tendency to talk loudly about "people who don't think sin is a big deal", and "people who ignore the Bible". And I'm worried that, when they find out that I think homosexuality isn't sinful, they'll assume that I am ignoring the Bible and not caring about sin, and they'll dismiss me out of hand.
So, two questions:
1) How precisely does one come out of the closet as an ally without one's church members assuming all sorts of nonsense about how seriously one takes one's faith?
2) Ethically speaking, how okay is it for me to keep my mouth shut? Am I hurting gay people by not speaking up on the subject yet? How much should I push it as an issue?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
1) How precisely does one come out of the closet as an ally without one's church members assuming all sorts of nonsense about how seriously one takes one's faith?
A good starting point would be to employ Biblical arguments. What do the prooftexty passages actually say? What do they mean? Is the plain meaning of the Bible always necessarily the correct interpretation? Why do passages either side of them get routinely ignored by Christians? It's not foolproof, but your best response to any charge about not taking God/sin/the Bible seriously is that you're taking it a whole lot more seriously than people who lazily read their preconceptions into a passage.
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
2) Ethically speaking, how okay is it for me to keep my mouth shut? Am I hurting gay people by not speaking up on the subject yet? How much should I push it as an issue?
Oof, that's a big question! This may be rather controversial, but to be honest, I think the person you're hurting most by keeping quiet is yourself. Gay rights are marching on and aren't going to be derailed by the unexpressed support of one person, but suppressing your true thoughts isn't healthy in the long run. There are good and bad times to speak, but just keeping quiet indefinitely isn't a good idea.
And that's worth exactly what you paid for it.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
2) Ethically speaking, how okay is it for me to keep my mouth shut? Am I hurting gay people by not speaking up on the subject yet? How much should I push it as an issue?
Not being a church-goer (or a Christian) I can't really answer your first question about how one should relate to fellow congregants. As far as the second question goes, it's been my experience (mostly in areas other than anti-gay prejudice) that one of the assumptions usually held by the prejudiced is that almost everyone agrees with them. If you're being silent, they'll most likely assume you agree with them but have been cowed into silence by "political correctness". So yes, it's important to let them know other good, decent church-going folk disagree with them.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
1) How precisely does one come out of the closet as an ally without one's church members assuming all sorts of nonsense about how seriously one takes one's faith?
I think if the rest of your life makes it clear how seriously you take your faith, then perhaps their reaction will be "how can a good Christian like you believe that?" and not "you can't really be a good Christian if you believe that!" If that's the case, your coming out as an ally could allow a really positive, helpful conversation.
But it seems to me that, for some Christians, a very particular opinion about homosexuality is a shibboleth. If you don't believe precisely what they believe, then you are not one of them. It seems to be as important (maybe even more important) than the doctrines related to the Trinity and the Incarnation. If that's the case at your church, you may have to accept that you will be regarded as a heretic if you come out as an ally.
quote:
2) Ethically speaking, how okay is it for me to keep my mouth shut? Am I hurting gay people by not speaking up on the subject yet? How much should I push it as an issue?
I struggled with this, too, for a long time. I think it's possible to find a middle ground between keeping your mouth shut and pushing the issue. You might find PFLAG's Straight for Equality website helpful. There's good information for "The New Ally" about where to start and how to become comfortable as an ally.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Get a different group? Get a different church? Decide to leave sex (and perhaps politics) out of the discussions at church and your group? Which leads me back to first 2 questions.
Is this a "bible believing", literalist or fundamentals type of denomination? Sometimes we are led toward a different Christian expression by things like this.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
I agree with Josephine and would add a second bit.
If you come out as an ally to your fellowship and they say "Interesting, I always thought you were a good Christian. Why do you believe that?" then it's a win for you.
If you come out and they say, "You must not be a good Christian, then," then it seems they may be lacking in charity and you may want to find a group who aren't!
But ultimately, suppressing your own opinions, if you feel that you want to express them, will lead to anxiety. If you don't feel any desire to express them, maybe it won't be such a problem for you.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
My mum went through this at her large, rather conservative country church about 15 years ago. She was certainly ostracised by a small proportion of the congregation, but it is very hard to look at a little old lady who is a layreader, the main pastoral worker, and try and tell her she's not a good Christian.
You may not have the luck to look like a little old lady, of course. She just felt she couldn't stay quiet, so she didn't. She was very well known in the area, so respect for her helped.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
So, two questions:
1) How precisely does one come out of the closet as an ally without one's church members assuming all sorts of nonsense about how seriously one takes one's faith?
It may be your duty not to care about what assumptions other church members make about your faith.
I don't know how the social dynamics of your group work, but I don't think you need to be ashamed of not being a homophobe.
I've made a point in my small group of putting no more than a veneer of courtesy over the utter contempt I feel for anti-gay bullshit. Since I made that decision there's been a lot less anti-gay statements. No one enjoys being the object of scorn, and if you are prepared to be belligerent enough about it, you can make this crap socially unacceptable in your group. Even if you are a minority.
That may not be your best strategy for your group, but I do think that you should make your point somehow.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I remember an occasion from a long time ago, when I was 19 years old. My parents had invited two quite elderly couples - long-term friends and neighbours - around for dinner. After dinner, the conversation took a nasty racist turn, replete with comments of the 'should go back to where they came from' variety.
My 19 year old self was in a deep quandary. These were my parents' friends, guests in my parents' house, and my elders, to whom I owed all courtesy. Moreover, they were not particularly educated (so that tearing their arguments apart with my Oxbridge 'cleverness' would have come across as sheer arrogance, and might even have been cruel). And they were kind people, whose views were in large part the product of the ignorance borne of their isolated rural lives.
Yet their opinions were appalling, and I was horrified by the thought that by my silence, they would assume that I agreed with them. So I stood up to go, and just before I left the room, said politely, "I just want to say that I don't agree with you at all." Then I went and brought them tea.
I'm offering that, because I am someone who hates conflict as well. But I found then that there is a way of registering dissent quietly but decisively, and maybe you could try something similar with your friends. If they choose to pursue the issue, then simply restate your position: "Yes, I hear what you are saying but I don't agree"; "I'm not arguing with you, but that's what I think." You don't need to argue your point of view if you feel that is beyond you. You just need to state it.
And smile and be gracious - especially if they are turning up the heat. It is hard to accuse the sweetest person in the room of being unChristian.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
(1) Is it necessary to come out of the closet? What business is it of that ghastly sounding group?
(2) Is it possible to go to another church?
(3) Why should they wish to spend so much time discussing sexuality rather than, say, discuss the economy. St Paul also has things to say about usuary.
(4) Do not feel for one moment that those in that group are more 'valid' in their faith than you. Just blinkered and what my grandmother might have observed 'just not our class dear'.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
So, two questions:
1) How precisely does one come out of the closet as an ally without one's church members assuming all sorts of nonsense about how seriously one takes one's faith?
2) Ethically speaking, how okay is it for me to keep my mouth shut? Am I hurting gay people by not speaking up on the subject yet? How much should I push it as an issue?
1)I do not attend church groups. However one comes out as an ally by talking about things like weddings of gay friends you've attended and how happy you are for them.
2)You have to chose when it's tactically appropriately to come out. I suspect the person you're hurting the most is yourself. It's amazing how the anti-gay rhetoric turns down several notches when the assumption that everyone in the room agrees with it is broken. You start hearing preambles like.. I'm not anti gay but.....
You may also find that other people agree with you but haven't had the courage to speak.
But if the group is going to violently turn against you I'd ask, why do you want to be a member of this group? Do you think they are bound for heaven if they continue the way they are going?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I like Cottontail's story. Reminds me of my first pastorate. It was in a small town in South Dakota. From time to time I would hear something that was racist but would not respond to them; but, then after a year there, my wife and I had an open house. Two elderly couples came first. Practically the first thing one of the gentlemen said was, "Well, I bet you are glad to be out of the city (we had lived in St. Louis) away from all those Negroes." I smiled and asked if they would like to see our wedding pictures. I showed them the wedding party. My best man was black--from Kenya; and my brother in law was also black. From then on we never heard anything more about the blacks.
I frequent Lutheran board. At one time most of the people were anti gay there. I was practically the only one who would question their attitudes, showing them as best I could that their interpretations were wrong. Of course, they tried to dismiss me as a liberal and not a Bible believer.
One time I got into it with a conservative pastor. I had mentioned that in the story of Jesus healing the centurion's servant in Matthew 8, the servant may have been a young male sex slave. He jumped all over me. But I persisted the Greek word, pais can be translated one of three ways: boy; servant; or male sex slave in Greek literature. The pastor claimed his Kittel New Testament Greek Dictionary (which was actually first published in the 30's) did not indicate that. I did a little research on Kittel in response--he was a Nazi sympathizer and a known homophobe in his day. I referred the conservative pastor to Bruce Metzger's New Testament Greek Dictionary (published in the 80's) which does say pais could be translated as male sex slave. Of course, the conservatives preferred Kittel's definition.
There would be many a time when I was the sole voice speaking out for the gay person. I was called all sorts of nasty names. Still, from time to time, I would get an email from a gay person thanking me for standing up for them.
Over the years, though, the tone of the board has changed. There are now more people who are open to gay rights on the board--most of the conservatives have just stopped posting. Can't say I changed anyone's mind, but I could not let what they were saying be presented as the only "Lutheran" understanding of the subject.
No, I say speak up. Do bone up on your Bible verses though if you go that way. No doubt there are members of your church group who probably have LBGT family members and have just kept quiet because they did not know how if anyone would stand up for them. But even if there aren't, things don't change until someone speaks up.
The worst that could happen is you might get dis-invited to the group; but it would be their loss. You can then do as Jesus said, shake the dust off your shoes and move on to a more welcoming community.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Short answer to your questions, St Deird; I don't know.
I 'came out' as a supporter by sending an email to the PCC secretary asking if the parish would consider lodging a protest about the infamous 'official' response to the government consultation about SSM. The question was debated at the next PCC meeting; I don't know how long the debate lasted or what was said, although the PCC decided not to do anything. The only reaction I got was a two-minute talk with the vicar (while I was trying to supervise some Sunday school children) explaining their reasons for not doing anything and suggesting signing petitions, writing to my MP and so on as an individual, which I'd already done.
Nobody else has said anything to me. I'm still a Sunday school teacher. I haven't been drummed out of the choir (though selection for the choir is based on musical ability rather than theological orthodoxy). However, our church doesn't have house groups for everyone - there are some discussion groups for retired people and various youth groups but nothing for people of working age.
It's not always easy to think of the right thing to do on the spur of the moment; I was once present when a gay work colleague was being quizzed about whether he had illicit passions for schoolboys. Ten minutes later (after the woman who asked the question had gone) I thought of the perfect comeback, but at the time I was so gobsmacked by her outrageous rudeness that I couldn't think of anything to say; my jaw was too busy hitting the floor.
My friend's reply to the question was a lot more polite than what I'd have said in his defence, so perhaps it was just as well I didn't say anything.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
As someone who is gay and "out," I can relate to the discomfort you are feeling as an ally. My congregation is fairly accepting of everyone, but it took me awhile to actually tell anyone there that I was gay. You just don't know what the response will be and have to trust the process.
On the other hand -- from where I sit, a lot of the time silence among conservative church members who are actually allies often sounds like tacit approval of what the majority of that church is saying.
One way to open the discussion may simply be to ask questions. "You say you think that pro-gay Christians 'ignore sin.' Why do you think that's so? Why can't they simply be Christians whose informed conscience has led them to a different conclusion than yours?" "What makes homosexuality a sin, anyway?" "Have you ever thought about the historical or cultural context in which the [texts of terror] were written?" Make the homophobes own their comments and opinions and explain them.
In the meantime, as others have suggested: Is this group the best fit for you? I struggled for several years to stay within the conservative church body of my childhood because I felt it important to be a reformer from within; after hitting my head against its theological/idealogical brick wall too many times, I concluded that in order to be a person of integrity I had to leave. It wasn't easy; it caused issues in my family, and in many ways it felt like a divorce; but in the long run it was the best thing I could have done.
[ 18. June 2013, 13:47: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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