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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Exodus International exits the scene
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Exodus International is closing down and has issued an apology for the hurt that their work has caused to many.
Exodus closing down
Apology
Is this a positive sign of a shift going on within the Christian culture of the USA? Do you think it will encourage others to reexamine their position on these issues, or will they just dig their heels in more?
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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whitebait
Shipmate
# 7740
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Posted
I'm pleased to see the apology, though it seems that the timing has more to do with an upcoming TV expose of Ex-gay ministries.
There's some good analysis on the Ex-Gay Watch site.
It seems like the more hardline groups have already moved on to a new umbrella ministry, the "Restored Hope Network" which still promotes "change".
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small fry on a journey
Posts: 151 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
The whole premise of the ex-gay movement is that being gay is choice and that if you simply apply strong enough positive incentives (approval, acceptance, etc.) for straightness and negative incentives (hellfire, social ostracism, etc.) for gayness that gay people will choose differently. The more-or-less total failure of this technique seems to have caused the more honest among the movement to reassess this premise and the more hardline to simply double down and claim that the negative incentives weren't harsh enough.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Whoever edits the Exodus International Wikipedia entry seems to be really on the ball. They've already changed all the verbs to past tense.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'll need to take time to read it more carefully, and I'm not familiar with all the backstory, but it sounds refreshingly honest. What's his Ship handle? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I'm unimpressed so far.
They're trying to escape the consequences of the damage they've done and want to start over .
Their starting over consists of creating a new group to talk to gays and lesbians (StopFear) which has no statement of purpose on its website.
This is reminiscent of typical charismatic Christian minister style. Having been caught
committing adultery with parishioners they confess, announce they asked Jesus to forgive them and expect to be the minister again, rather than singing in the choir.
The Stop Fear organization will no doubt try to figure out less violent ways to "cure" gays of having happy sex lives. What they should do is leave Gays and Lesbians alone. They've done enough damage. IF they need a project they should apply electrodes to their own testicles and shame themselves until they figure out the flaws in their toxic scriptural wisdom.
Old Poison, New Bottles is my expectation.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The Stop Fear organization will no doubt try to figure out less violent ways to "cure" gays of having happy sex lives.
But what if one sincerely believes that Homosexuality is a condition requiring either healing or repentance, and finds oneself with those desires? If it is indeed beyond the bounds of God's plan for our lives, He will supply grace - to quote an old CCM song, "The power of faith & love can change the stuff we're made of..." and such needs to be true of all of us. Can they not do their own thing, and if you don't like what they are doing, and don't agree with it, then don't go.
I say that realizing that their approach has been acknowledged to have been excessive and unhelpful, and has messed up some youngsters subjected to it; I'm not advocating that, just saying, let's see - they want to talk, make amends, why not listen and maybe try to have some input? The man openly confessed to his continuing desires; that doesn't sound like someone who will advocate "cookie cutter" or "pray the gay away" glib "solutions". He realizes the tenacity and complexity of the problem (If one accepts it as being a "problem") in his own life, and he's looking for a better way forward (I hope).
As one gifted by a miracle of grace that did indeed change fundamental aspects of my personality and desires (not on this particular issue but every bit as fundamental), I refuse to say that it is impossible - I know my God better than that; though the seeming capriciousness of it gives me pause (why me & not so many others in pain?), but I cannot deny what happened to me.
So anyway, yeah, I understand what you're saying - once burned, twice cautious - but it sounds like he's looking for engagement with the community.
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
I say that realizing that their approach has been acknowledged to have been excessive and unhelpful, and has messed up some youngsters subjected to it; I'm not advocating that, just saying, let's see - they want to talk, make amends, why not listen and maybe try to have some input?
Because that's not how genuine repentance works. If you fuck up badly enough to have ruined hundreds (perhaps thousands) of lives who trusted in your supposed "expertise", you don't get to go on lecturing people after an "oops, my bad!" If he genuinely wants to make amends he should start by listening to his victims, not talking to them.
Here's an open letter from John Shore to Alan Chambers that expands on some of these points.
quote:
And congratulations on all the press coverage your apology is receiving! First you issued your "I Am Sorry" statement; right after that you announced, during your opening address at last night's 38th Annual Exodus Freedom Conference, that Exodus was shutting down; and then, the very next day, you starred in a massively promoted tear-jerker of a TV show being broadcast on the Oprah Winfrey Network!
Why, it's almost like you've been strategically planning your heartfelt apology for months! I'm sure you haven't, of course; nobody is so low that they would turn a moment of piercing remorse brought on by the realization of how destructively wrong they've been into a manifestly self-serving, blatantly opportunistic, emotionally manipulative media event. But the timing of it all sure worked out well for you, didn't it? Yesterday you were the head of a once-powerful organization that had become utterly discredited, maligned, and irrelevant, because it was founded upon the life-ruining lie that God is righteously angered by any gay person who does not pray away their gay. And now, with all lights turned toward you, you're launching Reduced Fear, the brand-new organization run by you and all your friends at Exodus International!
How great for you is all that? Way to go!
<snip>
Throughout your talk, you were definitely feeling unabashedly enthused and proud about Reducing Fear becoming, as you put it any number of times, the "father" of the church. (You said, "[Exodus] is the older brother [of the church]. And it's time we became the father.")
I assume you're aware of this, but just in case: Acute remorse usually engenders a sense of profound humility. A lot of people find heart-wrenching regret incompatible with pride and ambition. I must admit that I am one such person. When I feel the full weight of something egregiously immoral that I have done, the last thing I want to do is go wading amongst the very people whom I've damaged and start telling them about all my new plans for championing their best interests. But maybe that's just me.
Links and italics in original. Bold added by me. The whole thing is worth a read, and not that long.
At any rate, forgiveness or reconciliation with oppressors or those who have wronged us may be important, but it's never the first order of business. It's not even the second or the third.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
But what if one sincerely believes that Homosexuality is a condition requiring either healing or repentance, and finds oneself with those desires? If it is indeed beyond the bounds of God's plan for our lives, He will supply grace - to quote an old CCM song, "The power of faith & love can change the stuff we're made of..." and such needs to be true of all of us. Can they not do their own thing, and if you don't like what they are doing, and don't agree with it, then don't go.
I say that realizing that their approach has been acknowledged to have been excessive and unhelpful, and has messed up some youngsters subjected to it; I'm not advocating that, just saying, let's see - they want to talk, make amends, why not listen and maybe try to have some input? The man openly confessed to his continuing desires; that doesn't sound like someone who will advocate "cookie cutter" or "pray the gay away" glib "solutions". He realizes the tenacity and complexity of the problem (If one accepts it as being a "problem") in his own life, and he's looking for a better way forward (I hope).
As one gifted by a miracle of grace that did indeed change fundamental aspects of my personality and desires (not on this particular issue but every bit as fundamental), I refuse to say that it is impossible - I know my God better than that; though the seeming capriciousness of it gives me pause (why me & not so many others in pain?), but I cannot deny what happened to me.
So anyway, yeah, I understand what you're saying - once burned, twice cautious - but it sounds like he's looking for engagement with the community.
If you want to "cure your homosexuality" with the Grace of God, knock yourself out. Presumably God and you together should be able to work it out.
These people aren't trying to cure their own homosexuality, they want to cure other people. And their track record, not with a "few youngster" but with a great many people young and old, means they should stop practicing.
The core of their poison is their scriptural wisdom and they should go fix themselves. I'm happy to go and talk to them on how electroshock can help cure their enthusiasm for trying to "cure" other people. But I am sure their wanting to talk is about curing me.
"Yes we ruined the lives of a lot of gay people with dangerous bad treatment didn't work. Well why don't we try a few new treatments because we're so wise and enthusiastic. If they are as bad, we'll come up with more.."
That's not what I call making amends.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Apologies for the double post while trying to correct can edit. If a host can delete the first of the two versions I would be very happy.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Palimpset:
Well, you know, that's what's funny. I wasn't trying to "cure" anything. I didn't know what the dickens was wrong. Then someone that cared about had a talk with me, and they didn't even realize the effect it had on me, but the walls came crashing down; I was crushed, and in that crushing, somehow, I was permanently changed.
But that's the problem - why me and not someone else? I can't answer that. And when it comes to "curing" homosexuality, well, I can only go by my limited experience of two people who are close to me (both Christians) that have not had an experience similar to mine, and I realize that God works different ways with different people. In at least one case (FWIW, I'm no psychologist, but I know the person very well), he was homosexually traumatized growing up. He has a very misogynistic attitude; plus both are conceited and quite selfish, self-righteous, and judgmental (Oh, I'm sorry, I already said they were Christians... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ). There are a whole host of things swirling around this person's sexuality that (again, it seems to me) impact the way this person's sexuality plays out. The issues I mentioned are far more important than their sexuality, and if grace went anywhere, it would go there, and the rest may (or may not) follow. It is, I think, a very complex issue with a lot of pain around it.
Croesus:
As usual, you have dug into it more. All I heard was a portion of his apology on the news. Maybe he is just another Bill Clinton. I didn't know about the follow-on organization and the grandiose plans ("father" of the church? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ).
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Tom of Tarsrus:
The fact that you were able to make a major positive change in your life with the help of Christian prayer is good news. It is not evidence that Gay people can pray the Gay away.
I've had a positive change in my life too, absent Grace. I came out as a gay man and accepted myself and have been able to lead a decent life. The Gay community has had this experience over and over and over again.
Gay people as a group have many people who have had experience with these ex-gay ministries. It almost always ends badly. As the Gay community we get those who survived this to get a life by accepting their gay nature. We know of the other ones who were destroyed by these groups. This is why the medical societies have withdrawn their approval of these treatments.
In the gay community where closeted gay people are left alone, many of these ex-gay organizers are busy having surreptitious gay sex. I've met several people who were seduced by members of the ex-gay ministry when they were sent there to be cured. There's a whole subculture which is dwindling of married men having anonymous sex at highway restrooms.
It's very arrogant of you to say "why not talk to these people" when they want to inflict more of the same damage.
One of the reasons for Exodus to shut up shop was they have a bunch of pending lawsuits and financial mistakes in real estate as well as some network TV journalists about to break a story. This is a simple corporate shell game to avoid accepting the consequences of their actions and nothing to admire.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Palimpset:
I'm sorry, as I mentioned in my last post, I was unaware of the a lot of the stuff swirling around the EI closure. I was going off the face value of what part of his apology I'd seen in the newscasts, which sounded pretty good. Arrogance is the last thing on my mind. And I thought I'd sufficiently distanced myself from "pray away the gay" types of "solutions" in my posts.
But as to what you said, I wasn't able to make a change in my life. I didn't know I even needed one. Calvinists talk of "immutable grace" and that seems to be, as best as I can come up with it, what happened to me. I was as stunned as if I'd run into a brick wall. It wasn't fun, warm, & fuzzy, it hurt like nothing I've ever gone through, and there is no merit for me having achieved anything. If anything, I'm like the Gadarene demoniac, "clothed, in his right mind, sitting at the feet of Jesus" - if indeed I'm in my right mind!
I'll try again - I don't know if you identify as a Christian or not, but I know two gay men quite well that do. One has embraced Catholicism and has elected to remain celibate, because he considers homosexuality to be part of our fallen-ness, i.e. sinful. One has embraced a view of Scripture that homosexuality is NOT sinful, inside of marriage (where that is possible) or not. It isn't my job to "cure" them. It isn't my job to judge their worthiness for Heaven or Hell. It IS my job to love them, to respect them, to "speak the truth (as best as I understand it) in love". I believe that we all must be changed to conform to the image of Christ, and in the case of both of these men, as well as myself, I see "bigger fish to fry" as it were - it is the whole person I love, and will try to help along toward Heaven as best as I can.
I hope that clears things up.
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Many of us (including myself) who were involved with ex-gay ministries and realized that they drove us away from God, not into God's arms. They are incredibly spiritually destructive. The admission of Alan Chambers that he is still homosexual in orientation is the latest in a string of Exodus leaders who realize that these groups don't work. (Gary Bussee is another one.)
The group of ex-ex-gays is far greater than ex-gays. Too many gave up on faith altogether. Celibacy is a calling that not all of us share. Even St. Paul said admitted that (1 Corinthians 7:9).
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
I did think that the exit strategy would have planned before the public were told of this. It makes the whole enterprise seem more cynical, rather than purely wrong-headed, in retrospect. I wonder how early on it was when they twigged that they weren't helping anyone?
[ 26. June 2013, 23:24: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
See ex-ex-gay for people who have repudiated their earlier claims. It goes back at least to 2004.
The timing of the shutdown may be more related to their financial status and pending lawsuits.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomOfTarsus:
("father" of the church? ).
quote:
Throughout your talk, you were definitely feeling unabashedly enthused and proud about Reducing Fear becoming, as you put it any number of times, the "father" of the church. (You said, "[Exodus] is the older brother [of the church]. And it's time we became the father.")
I think this sounds misleading. What I read was that they were saying they'd been like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son (i.e. self-righteous, judgemental), and they wanted to change to be like the father (i.e. accepting, forgiving). I didn't get the impression at all that it was about fathering the Church in some kind of authoritarian or oversight sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Because that's not how genuine repentance works. If you fuck up badly enough to have ruined hundreds (perhaps thousands) of lives who trusted in your supposed "expertise", you don't get to go on lecturing people after an "oops, my bad!" If he genuinely wants to make amends he should start by listening to his victims, not talking to them.
Excellently put.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think this sounds misleading. What I read was that they were saying they'd been like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son (i.e. self-righteous, judgemental), and they wanted to change to be like the father (i.e. accepting, forgiving). I didn't get the impression at all that it was about fathering the Church in some kind of authoritarian or oversight sense.
They still want to convey the message that homosexuality is wrong. That's not what I call accepting. As for forgiveness, who are they to forgive anyone? They should be claiming to be the younger brother of the parable.
[ 28. June 2013, 07:55: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
They still want to convey the message that homosexuality is wrong. That's not what I call accepting.
Me neither.
I wasn't agreeing with what they said, just pointing out that they were saying was different to the impression the quote gave, that they were some kind of fatherly oversight of the church.
As it is, what he was actually saying just confirms them as judgemental hypocrites, rather than deluded power-grabbers. Not sure if that's a step up or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
They should be claiming to be the younger brother of the parable.
Exactly. Shouldn't we all?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Cynical ex-advertising major here: I think all they've done is re-brand their "product" in a way that they think will be more acceptable to younger people.
The Republican Party is in the throes of attempting the same strategy in order to attract young adult voters, a demographic they increasingly need for electoral success but which statistically is more likely to dismiss them as ignorant, anti-intellectual, homophobic, hyper-religious and misogynistic. Trouble is, like the Exodus people, their core supporters aren't willing to distance themselves from public comments and legislative behaviors that in fact support those perceptions.
Count me as another person who has no interest whatsoever in "dialogue" with a supposedly new-and-improved iteration of the same destructive organization.
[ 28. June 2013, 12:15: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I think this sounds misleading. What I read was that they were saying they'd been like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son (i.e. self-righteous, judgemental), and they wanted to change to be like the father (i.e. accepting, forgiving). I didn't get the impression at all that it was about fathering the Church in some kind of authoritarian or oversight sense.
Not to be too picky about it, but isn't the father in the parable of the prodigal son a metaphorical stand-in for God Almighty? I'm just saying that if they didn't want to convey they idea that they want to be in charge, perhaps a better analogy could have been found.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
perhaps a better analogy could have been found.
Well, sure. I think it was a clumsy analogy. Here's what Chambers said:
quote:
From a Judeo-Christian perspective, gay, straight or otherwise, we’re all prodigal sons and daughters. Exodus International is the prodigal’s older brother, trying to impose its will on God’s promises, and make judgments on who’s worthy of His Kingdom. God is calling us to be the Father – to welcome everyone, to love unhindered.
At least he made the point that everyone is a prodigal, and the shift from judgmental to welcoming is laudable. But that point could have probably been made without painting themselves as the father figure in the prodigal son story.
Nevertheless, as I said, I do think that
quote:
You said, "[Exodus] is the older brother [of the church]. And it's time we became the father."
is a poor representation of what was said, as it loses the context of the prodigal son story, and, given that context, the insertion of [of the church] doesn't seem to fit the original intention anyhow. That's all. Maybe John Shore misunderstood the analogy, but in an otherwise excellent letter, that bit stood out as iffy.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Count me as another person who has no interest whatsoever in "dialogue" with a supposedly new-and-improved iteration of the same destructive organization.
As I said earlier I'm willing to discuss with them how applying electroshock to their testicle can help them reconsider the error their scriptural interpretation. Unfortunately, they just want to continue poisoning gay people in a vulnerable position. I'm not interested in hearing their opinions on that.
It might be a good time to step up the part where their homosexual sex partners send in photos of the leaders of the group in compromising positions to help them have the discussions with themselves.
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