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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: the Archbishop doesn't announce a new policy
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
So the ABC tells the General Synod:
1. There is a social revolution over gayness. No one much but the churches has a problem (top prize for stating the bleeding obvious)
2. Homophobic bullying in church schools is bad and wrong, and he's going to ask his chums at Stonewall to help deliver a big new shiny anti- homophobic bullying policy
And
3. That there is no new policy in the C of E regarding gay people.
See what he did there? 1 looks like he's noticed what is going on, 2 shows he trying to get down with the kids, and......yes! 3 says we'll carry on being an officially homophobic church.
He fools no one but himself.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I'm not so sure. Maybe we need to be more generous to the new ABC in the hope that he is trying to achieve something without waiting for Synod to approve a change of policy, given how long it takes that body to do that.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not so sure. Maybe we need to be more generous to the new ABC in the hope that he is trying to achieve something without waiting for Synod to approve a change of policy, given how long it takes that body to do that.
Surely the way to do that would be to propose and support such a policy in Synod?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not so sure. Maybe we need to be more generous to the new ABC in the hope that he is trying to achieve something without waiting for Synod to approve a change of policy, given how long it takes that body to do that.
Surely the way to do that would be to propose and support such a policy in Synod?
That would be best, but I give you the example that Synod is meeting today to debate women as bishops, which it has been doing for some years.
I'd rather have progress made, step by step, than have the opponents delay any progress whatsoever through Synod, which has a decision making process designed to maintain the status quo.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...[Snip]... I'd rather have progress made, step by step, than have the opponents delay any progress whatsoever ...[snip]...
Whilst I would prefer to see further and faster action, this may be the most fraternity minded means to go about things, shame it is not a policy normally considered - slow evolution of policy rather than trying an automatic imposition which just gets backs up and ensures to an extent that any measure fails.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I continue to remain flabbergasted by the fact that the bishops turned up en masse in the House of Lords to vote against marriage equality, but not against some of the recent social injustice issues, and didn't think that they would be derided and the church further seen as irrelevant to modern society.
He seems to recognise that now, but it's a little late.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Wiki says that there are 24 Lords Spiritual.
Do we know how they voted?
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Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
www.rjpmedia.net
Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
++Justin's approach to all this seems very much like that of a man taken by surprise, who can't understand why people take objection to the views he expresses; almost like someone who has never before knowingly met a gay person, and who is now being forced for the firstime, to analyze his position. As he is someone who has moved freely in the realms of both commerce and the church, this seems totally incredible, but bishops are strange folk, and often seem to have a predilection for ivory towers.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not so sure. Maybe we need to be more generous to the new ABC in the hope that he is trying to achieve something without waiting for Synod to approve a change of policy, given how long it takes that body to do that.
I think that once someone has campaigned in public for a particular group not to have equal rights in law, the presumption of good will may justly be suspended.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
++Justin's approach to all this seems very much like that of a man taken by surprise, who can't understand why people take objection to the views he expresses; almost like someone who has never before knowingly met a gay person, and who is now being forced for the firstime, to analyze his position. As he is someone who has moved freely in the realms of both commerce and the church, this seems totally incredible, but bishops are strange folk, and often seem to have a predilection for ivory towers.
I think he is representative of a generational shift within conservative opposition to gay rights.
The older generation sees homosexuality as self-evidently sinful. They are aware that arguments can be constructed in favour of homosexuality but would probably ignore them as sophistry.
The younger generation see the issue in terms of authority. They would probably support gay rights if they weren't Christians but they think God has forbidden homosexual practice and they don't have the right to challenge Him. They are equally aware that the older generation just sounds irrational to the secular world.
Welby is basically a member of the younger generation telling the older generation that they need to change their game if they're to have any chance of persuading the world that they're not totally irrational.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
All of which leaves out the inconvenient fact that the actual "younger generation" think that Welby represents something antique and irrelevant, rather than "young".
Why would any follower of Christ condone bullying in the first place?
Oh, yeah, about that....
What a Good Way to build the church: beat up on the possible candidates.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Opinion thus far seems to divide between those who think that we should give him credit for not being a vile homophobe, and who may eventually move the C of E's position a bit (but of course we don't know how much because he is NOT announcing a new policy), and those who think that this is all piss and wind until we see something different.
I am sure he is not a nasty man - on the contrary, I expect he is trying to do something good in a very difficult job. But I still don't think he really understands that equality and dignity really are non-negotiable. The Church has to stop being a discriminatory and controlling super-Nanny, handing out sweets and smacks in equal measure (though usually more smacks as she is VERY hard to please).
He is right - there is a revolution going on. It is not a bad revolution but a good one. And as for not knowing where it will end up, well, we don't know that about anything in life do we. I thought that was the point of walking by faith and not by sight.
More important simply to do the right thing by people - welcome, include, bless, support and encourage. Isn't that what churches are supposed to do? When they do that then people find their own way, make their own choices, and forge their own paths within this community of love and care. My own experience is that the Holy Spirit is just as much involved as in those places where everyone thought they knew the answers - in fact, often discernably more so!
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Opinion thus far seems to divide between those who think that we should give him credit for not being a vile homophobe, and who may eventually move the C of E's position a bit (but of course we don't know how much because he is NOT announcing a new policy), and those who think that this is all piss and wind until we see something different.
It seems to me that someone who thinks gay sex is sinful, but acknowledges homophobic bullying in schools as a problem, is a considerable improvement on someone who thinks gay sex is sinful and that homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia - the latter having been the de facto position of the Church of England until now.
Granted, we are talking about bad to less bad rather than bad to good, but it's still an improvement.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
All of which leaves out the inconvenient fact that the actual "younger generation" think that Welby represents something antique and irrelevant, rather than "young".
Which is why I specifically talked about generations "within conservative opposition to gay rights".
I was born in 1986, so I'm perfectly familiar with what young people think ...
[ 07. July 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Opinion thus far seems to divide between those who think that we should give him credit for not being a vile homophobe, and who may eventually move the C of E's position a bit (but of course we don't know how much because he is NOT announcing a new policy), and those who think that this is all piss and wind until we see something different.
It seems to me that someone who thinks gay sex is sinful, but acknowledges homophobic bullying in schools as a problem, is a considerable improvement on someone who thinks gay sex is sinful and that homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia - the latter having been the de facto position of the Church of England until now.
Granted, we are talking about bad to less bad rather than bad to good, but it's still an improvement.
Agreed. I have more faith in Welby than in Synod right now.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
All of which leaves out the inconvenient fact that the actual "younger generation" think that Welby represents something antique and irrelevant, rather than "young".
Which is why I specifically talked about generations "within conservative opposition to gay rights".
I was born in 1986, so I'm perfectly familiar with what young people think ...
I'm a bit different. I was born in 1957 but my children were born between 1983 and 1996, so I've learnt quite a bit from them and their friends.
eta: my attitude to Welby is much the same as Jade Constable's, although I wouldn't say I have "faith" in him.
[ 07. July 2013, 14:49: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
My daughters were born in the early '80s, plus I'm still involved in high school activities, so I am also aware of the general trend in "young" thinking - which leaves me pretty much opposed to the attitude of my synod, and of too many of the local clergy of all denoms.
The UK isn't only place with self-inflicted problems, but as Andrew Brown , that notorious atheistic Grauniadista, points out, the General Synod has the power to effectively kill the CofE in one swell foop.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
As someone not involved with gay-bullying in CofE schools, I can't comment on how positive I think the new approach will be.
However as an Anglican from outside the CofE, it would be nice to think that Justin would get as worked up and angry about gay-bullying in other parts of the Anglican communion as he apparently has about gay-bullying in CofE schools.
If relations with the church in Uganda, Nigeria and so on, continue in their usual way, all his fine words about what's happening in CofE schools and his angst about the impact of bullying on gay youth -- yea, even unto death -- will be nothing but a sounding gong and a clanging cymbel.
It's not possible for a church to be virtuous at home and ignore gross evil in other parts of the world.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...[Snip]... I'd rather have progress made, step by step, than have the opponents delay any progress whatsoever ...[snip]...
Whilst I would prefer to see further and faster action, this may be the most fraternity minded means to go about things, shame it is not a policy normally considered - slow evolution of policy rather than trying an automatic imposition which just gets backs up and ensures to an extent that any measure fails.
"I'd rather have progress made but wouldn't be jollier to go slower and slower in hopes of making the opposition happy" is your usual tactical proposal that nothing should be done.
Why not go backwards and defrock women priests? That's bound to be a fraternity crowd pleaser for the people who matter to you. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I do wonder how many youth being lectured on anti-gay bullying are going to ask why the church forbids same sex marriage?
Should be a fun time for all.
:-)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Welby is basically a member of the younger generation...
As far as anybody who is anywhere near having any kind of power in the CofE is concerned, he most certainly is in the younger generation.
He's 57.
No wonder the church is seen as irrelevant by the real younger generation.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Welby is basically a member of the younger generation...
As far as anybody who is anywhere near having any kind of power in the CofE is concerned, he most certainly is in the younger generation.
He's 57.
No wonder the church is seen as irrelevant by the real younger generation.
What I was thinking. But I'm afraid the average CofE church is indeed a place where anyone under 60 is young.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
What I was thinking. But I'm afraid the average CofE church is indeed a place where anyone under 60 is young.
That's why I go - someone tells me I'm young nearly every week ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
What I was thinking. But I'm afraid the average CofE church is indeed a place where anyone under 60 is young.
That's why I go - someone tells me I'm young nearly every week
[Tangent]
The youngest person in our congregation yesterday is 2 weeks young. And very cute.
Truly, IME, church congregations in London look very different from the rest of the country.
[/Tangent]
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Opinion thus far seems to divide between those who think that we should give him credit for not being a vile homophobe, and who may eventually move the C of E's position a bit (but of course we don't know how much because he is NOT announcing a new policy), and those who think that this is all piss and wind until we see something different.
My initial reaction to his statement was "I've really not been aware that homophobic bullying is a problem in C of E school."
I'm not sure what this new initiative is meant to achieve - other than to give an appearance that the C of E isn't as homophobic as the vast majority of the population think it is.
If homophobic bullying is such a serious problem, I kinda think we would have heard about it before now. And anyway - ANY bullying (homophobic or not) should be completely out in C of E schools (as in all other schools). Surely every C of E school has an anti-bullying policy? If not - then there is a much bigger problem to be solved than homophobic bullying.
Perhaps he really is trying to shift the ground a little. But surely anyone with an ounce of common sense is going to realize that if the "C of E policy" isn't changing, no amount of work in the schools will change matters much. What are they going to say to the kids? "Actually, being gay is a bad thing and if someone is gay, they are probably going to hell - but try to be nice to them anyway."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
If homophobic bullying is such a serious problem, I kinda think we would have heard about it before now.
I have heard that it's a problem. There was a Ship thread a few years ago where someone posted some fairly heavyweight links on the subject, but I'm not going to attempt to track them down now.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
My initial reaction to his statement was "I've really not been aware that homophobic bullying is a problem in C of E school."
Homophobic bullying is a problem in every school, I would be astonished if that wasn't also true in CofE schools, and there seems to be evidence to suggest that when people have the impression that their homophobic views are condoned the bullying gets worse. The widespread use of "gay" and "faggot" as insults is the tip of a very large iceberg, and any teacher (in secondary at least) will tell you that use of such is common, and some teachers don't challenge it.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Homophobic bullying is a problem in every school, I would be astonished if that wasn't also true in CofE schools, and there seems to be evidence to suggest that when people have the impression that their homophobic views are condoned the bullying gets worse .
This is the truest thing said on this thread and requires a sea change in schools and teachers, who tend to bring their own prejudices with them, even if teachers don't go in for the physical and outright homophobia many tend to be implicit by lack of dealing with the problem - something which is even worse when such attitudes are those of SMT's where the kids then get the impression that it is ok to then abuse LGBT teachers because nothing comes of it...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Oscar: quote:
If homophobic bullying is such a serious problem, I kinda think we would have heard about it before now.
My daughter was subjected to homophobic insults from two of her classmates a couple of years ago.
She was 7 at the time.
I'm assuming things will be a lot worse at secondary school.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"I'd rather have progress made but wouldn't be jollier to go slower and slower in hopes of making the opposition happy" is your usual tactical proposal that nothing should be done.
Why not go backwards and defrock women priests? That's bound to be a fraternity crowd pleaser for the people who matter to you.
You see I'm not entirely sure that you read my comments, nor understand the basic principles of Christian Community... If Christians are meant to be 'one body' then we should aim for a fraternity minded community and surely when we reach an issue that divides us we should actually discuss these things properly as a family, aiming to maintain our oneness, and take time to deal with them rather than taking the illiberal and fascists approach and imposing one will on the rest of the body without discussion or proper care and thought to our brothers and sisters who sit on the opposite side of the fence to ourselves.
Why you raise women priests I'm not sure, since I am on record as being forcefully in support of women at all levels of the threefold ministry, and because I have a proper Christian care and attention for all my brothers and sisters in Christ I should be ridiculed, no wonder the Church is failing...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
If Christians are meant to be 'one body' then we should aim for a fraternity minded community and surely when we reach an issue that divides us we should actually discuss these things properly as a family, aiming to maintain our oneness, and take time to deal with them rather than taking the illiberal and fascists approach and imposing one will on the rest of the body without discussion or proper care and thought to our brothers and sisters who sit on the opposite side of the fence to ourselves.
Oh please. The status quo is already "imposing one will on the rest of the body without discussion or proper care and thought to our brothers and sisters who sit on the opposite side of the fence". All that's changing is which side of the fence feels like they're being imposed on.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Oh please. The status quo is already "imposing one will on the rest of the body without discussion or proper care and thought to our brothers and sisters who sit on the opposite side of the fence". All that's changing is which side of the fence feels like they're being imposed on.
Yes, there is a current overarching view which has held sway for centuries, hence the need for proper discussion, and the slow and steady movements rather than the automatic lurch to the opposite view which just alienates people that I'm supposed to be in community with.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Yes, there is a current overarching view which has held sway for centuries, hence the need for proper discussion, and the slow and steady movements rather than the automatic lurch to the opposite view which just alienates people that I'm supposed to be in community with.
I'm sure people said the same to those pushing for racial integration in the US. Injustice is injustice, and people shouldn't have to wait for justice because that justice makes the perpetrators of injustice uncomfortable.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Yes, there is a current overarching view which has held sway for centuries, hence the need for proper discussion, and the slow and steady movements rather than the automatic lurch to the opposite view which just alienates people that I'm supposed to be in community with.
And meanwhile, other people you're supposed to be in community with are being alienated on a daily basis. But that's fine because it's been that way for centuries, right?
If it's truly the case that some people are going to be alienated whatever we do - and I think it is - then I say we choose to alienate those who advocate hatred and persecution rather than those who happen to have been born with the wrong gender/sexuality. Any objections?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
So now all those who thought JW would be a tremendous ABC are having second thoughts; perhaps they should have looked beyond the much (and over) emphasised "city" experience and Alpha link.
It is up to the people in the pews to show some clergy how reciprocal behaviour might work: next time you meet a bishop - especially if he's with his wife - ask them about their sexuality. And when they take offence remind them that this is what they pronounce about in others...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Don't just ask about their sexuality either. If you meet a Bishop and his wife, 'quiz them on their sex lives.' Important points to cover: birth control? Onanism? Positions or acts condemned/not overtly endorsed by Holy Scripture?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
If homophobic bullying is such a serious problem, I kinda think we would have heard about it before now.
quote:
A 1998 GALOP survey found that 72% of LGB adults reported a regular history of absenteeism at school. More than 50% of LGB men and women who had been bullied at school reported having contemplated self-harm or suicide; 40% had made at least one attempt to self-harm, and three-quarters of those made subsequent attempts. Thirteen per cent of men and 5% of women reported that the homophobic bullying they had experienced at school included sexual assault. 83% had experienced verbal abuse; 47% had experienced physical abuse.
comment by me at launch of EACH Report August 2009
quote:
Michael Gove, Conservative Shadow Secretary of State for Children, Young People and Families committed his party to helping the government beat bullying……"There should be zero tolerance of bullying in schools. "Homophobic and racial bullying is particularly despicable as it is the combination of prejudice and victimisation which is toxic.
Pink News 21.ix.07
quote:
An estimated 2,725 young people call ChildLine each year to talk about sexual orientation, homophobia or *homophobic* *bullying*. This set of issues appears to be of particular concern for boys. Males account for 55% of the calls about these issues. .....homophobic* *bullying* can easily become the defining aspect of a young person’s school
life. Because being gay is seen by many as ‘wrong’ or ‘not normal’, callers indicate that friends are more likely to be unsupportive, to join in with the *bullying*, or even to initiate it after a young person has come out to them. Young people report that many teachers do nothing to stop *homophobic* *bullying*, even when it is at its most overt. ‘It feels like
everyone at school is picking on me,’ said 15-year-old Jason. ‘They shove me in the corridor and call me “gay boy”. It happens in almost every lesson, too. My so-called friends don’t stand up for me, and the teachers don’t do anything to help, even when half the class is calling me names.
ChildLine Report February, 2009
quote:
“Staff in secondary and primary faith schools are only half as likely to say that homophobic bullying is a serious problem in their schools compared to staff in non-faith schools. Two in five staff in faith schools say that homophobic bullying never occurs in their schools. However, gay pupils in faith schools are more likely to experience homophobic bullying than their peers in non-faith schools. Three quarters of young gay people who attend faith schools have experienced homophobic bullying (The School Report).
"Some teachers did explain that the religious ethos of their school or the beliefs of their pupils can be a barrier to tackling homophobia or addressing lesbian and gay issues in classrooms.”
Stonewall 2009
quote:
“Lesbian and gay pupils who attend faith schools are significantly less likely (23 per cent) to tell someone than lesbian and gay pupils who attend non-faith schools. Only four per cent of gay pupils felt able to tell their local religious leaders about bullying.”
Stonewall 2007
The School Report 2007
Plus: Fear of telling parents, lack of support from teachers and parents/carers, religious leaders:
Under-reporting of incidents, lack of concern by faith schools because ‘it’s a sin’:
[scroll lock-breaking broken link removed by host - see below]
Seventy five per cent of young gay people attending faith schools have experienced homophobic bullying.
Peer-reviewed research:
- especially Catholic schools
Homophobic bullying in secondary schools in England and Wales - teachers' experiences Authors: Douglas N.; Warwick I.; Whitty G.; Aggleton P.; Kemp S. Source: Health Education, Volume 99, Number 2, 1999 , pp. 53-60(8) Publisher: Emerald Group Publishing Limited
Rivers, I. (2001) ‘The bullying of sexual minorities at school: Its nature and long-term correlates’, Educational and Child Psychology, Vol. 18 (1): 33-46.
Phoenix A., Frosh S., and Pattman R. (2003) ‘Producing contradictory masculine subject positions:
Narratives of threat, homophobia and bullying in 11–14-year-old boys’, Journal of Social Issues,Vol. 59, No. 1, 2003, pp. 179-195.
Baker, Jean (2002) How homophobia hurts children: Nurturing diversity at home, at school, and in the
community. New York: Harrington Park Press.
Mental Health and the Quality of Life of Gay Men and Lesbians, (British Journal of Psychiatry,2003
See also:
DfES, Homophobia: research and facts Online resource accompanying Stand up for us:
Challenging homophobia in schools. Available online:
[not here it isn't - broken link removed]
Trenchard, L. and Warren, H. (1984) ‘”Something To Tell You” - The Experiences of Young Lesbians and
Young Gay Men in London’, London: London Gay Teenage Group
The Bullying of Sexual Minorities: Its Nature and Long Term Correlates (Rivers 2001) Educational and Child Psychology, 18 (1): 33-46.
Social Exclusion, Absenteeism and Sexual Minority Youth (Rivers, 2000) Support for Learning 15 (1): 13-17.
.
Rivers, I. (2003) Getting in early: reducing homophobic bullying in schools, presented at the NACRO/Pavilion Conference ‘Enough is enough: issues and solutions in tackling homophobic violence’, ORT House Conference Centre, London, 9 May. This surveyed the views of 2,727 pupils in Years 7 and 8.
Norman, J. (2005) A Survey of Teachers on Homophobic Bullying in Second-
Level Schools (Dublin: Dublin City University).
Well-being among same-sex and opposite-sex attracted youth at school Authors: Rivers, I Noret, N 2008 Publisher: National Association of School Psychologists – faith schools less likely to have a policy or deal with homophobic bullying
Guardian re- faith schools as worse:
here
[broken link removed]
And
75 per cent of gay pupils attending faith schools experiencing. homophobic bullying. Pupils at faith schools are also less likely to report it. ...
here
[downloads PDF] [working link]
[scroll lock-breaking broken links removed by host. URLs of broken links kept in case requested - LY]
[ 09. July 2013, 19:18: Message edited by: Louise ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Leo - only one of your links actually went anywhere useful - the WestSussex one.
Could you please check the links - which I couldn't get to work even if I copied and pasted the URLs from your input!
Could I respectfully suggest using a service like this to remove any potential complications in the handling of long URLs by our software.
Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
hosting
One dead horse per thread, please! Please take the discussion about Women Bishops to the open thread or if feeling too heated for that, a hell call is your option.
thanks!
Louise
Dead horses host
hosting off
[ 09. July 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"I'd rather have progress made but wouldn't be jollier to go slower and slower in hopes of making the opposition happy" is your usual tactical proposal that nothing should be done.
Why not go backwards and defrock women priests? That's bound to be a fraternity crowd pleaser for the people who matter to you.
You see I'm not entirely sure that you read my comments, nor understand the basic principles of Christian Community... If Christians are meant to be 'one body' then we should aim for a fraternity minded community and surely when we reach an issue that divides us we should actually discuss these things properly as a family, aiming to maintain our oneness, and take time to deal with them rather than taking the illiberal and fascists approach and imposing one will on the rest of the body without discussion or proper care and thought to our brothers and sisters who sit on the opposite side of the fence to ourselves.
Why you raise women priests I'm not sure, since I am on record as being forcefully in support of women at all levels of the threefold ministry, and because I have a proper Christian care and attention for all my brothers and sisters in Christ I should be ridiculed, no wonder the Church is failing...
I raise the issue of women priests because those who are opposed to them make the same argument about priests as you make about bishops. And yet you run rough shod over their poor little fraternal feelings that things shouldn't change from what they were centuries ago by supporting women priests.
Your proposal to delay because of your proper Christian care seems to apply only to some issues and not others.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
hosting
One dead horse per thread, please! Please take the discussion about Women Bishops to the open thread or if feeling too heated for that, a hell call is your option.
thanks!
Louise
Dead horses host
hosting off
hosting
Palimpsest - that goes for arguments about women priests too. I thought you were making your remarks in the context of the current debate about women bishops in the Church of England. There is a huge thread about ordination of women here. Please stop derailing this one.
Would others please not reply to the derail on this thread?
thanks!
Louise
Dead horses host
hosting off
[ 09. July 2013, 22:36: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
It always amazes me that with all the moral issues in the world, and in Britain especially now, the Church has decided that "This is the hill I will die on." And why anyone would choose to die on the wrong side of non-personal moral issues simply confuses me.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It seems to me that someone who thinks gay sex is sinful, but acknowledges homophobic bullying in schools as a problem, is a considerable improvement on someone who thinks gay sex is sinful and that homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia - the latter having been the de facto position of the Church of England until now.
Do you really think that ny of the previous three ABCs thought that "homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia"?
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
It always amazes me that with all the moral issues in the world, and in Britain especially now, the Church has decided that "This is the hill I will die on."
Maybe Fred Phelps has decided that, but if by "the Church" in this context you mean the Church of England, what makes you think it has decided that?
[ 12. July 2013, 17:43: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Do you really think that any of the previous three ABCs thought that "homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia"?
Carey? Wouldn't surprise me for a second.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Do you really think that any of the previous three ABCs thought that "homophobic bullying is an invention of the PC thought police brigade mafia"?
Carey? Wouldn't surprise me for a second.
Carey still thinks that the real bullies are those who insist that Real Christians can't be nasty to gay people.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
It always amazes me that with all the moral issues in the world, and in Britain especially now, the Church has decided that "This is the hill I will die on."
Maybe Fred Phelps has decided that, but if by "the Church" in this context you mean the Church of England, what makes you think it has decided that?
Are you reading this thread? The Church of England as represented by its leaders is actively openly homophobic. The Archbishop of Canterbury is claiming that allowing consenting adults to marry whatever their genitalia would see marriage abolished, redefined and recreated".
What makes me think that the CofE has chosen that hill to die on? The statements and actions of those chosen and empowered to speak for it.
And in response to your other recent question, as others have said, former archbishop Carey is a raging bigot who thinks that it's Christians being oppressed because we no longer grant them automatic moral standing and license to pass any teachings they care to make off as moral.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Also when it comes to voting on marriage, of the 14 Lords Spiritual, 9 voted to try and prevent people marrying those they love and care for - and not one single bishop was brave enough to vote against the pack. When it came to actually curing the sick with the recent horrible NHS Social Care Bill, only four bishops bothered to vote, with one being in favour of cutting up the NHS.
What makes me think that they care more about preventing people from getting married than curing the sick? On which one did they make a stand?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Homophobic and transphobic bullying in schools is an enormous problem (thanks for those links, Leo - although Stonewall's transphobia is a problem). The main problem as experienced by myself and other LGBTQ+ individuals is that teachers seem to encourage LGBTQ+ students to 'tone down' their 'difference', or if they have actually come out, that they shouldn't have done it and should have expected bullying as a result of it. When I came out (I told friends, but someone overheard, and I refused to deny it) and was seriously bullied, I was told 'what did you expect?' and when I was physically attacked on the way to school I was simply told to walk a different route.
Another problem is the invisibility of transphobia and trans issues.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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