Ship of Fools: Gay Shaming?

Thread: Gay Shaming? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

In this story from this time last year, a high school principal gave two boys who were fighting the choice of suspension or holding hands for an hour.

My take on this is that it is sending the message that two men holding hands is shameful -- which seems to me to be homophobic. A gay friend doesn't read it this way, and thinks that forcing a bully to hold hands with a gay boy he was bullying may make him "think twice" before he bullied a gay person again. And thus it could actually be good for LGBTQ high school kids, not bad.

I also am opposed to shaming as punishment on general principle, and it seems to me like bullying in and of itself. It seems abusive.

What do people think?

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

It seems to me to be better to have them work at a useful project side by side - amicably or it doesn't count and they'd have to work some more another day. That way they might be forced to start seeing each other as people.

But, yeah, the way it was done plays into homophobia, IMO.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It's hard to know how much of the reaction of the boys - and the other students around them - was actually intended by the principal. Just because they appear deeply embarrassed and people laughed at them, doesn't mean that the shaming was actually the principal's intention.

I suspect someone here in this story is homophobic. I'm just not sure precisely who.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A gay friend doesn't read it this way, and thinks that forcing a bully to hold hands with a gay boy he was bullying may make him "think twice" before he bullied a gay person again.

Where do you get the idea that one of the boys involved is gay? I didn't see that in any of the articles I read.

I think that the principal's intention was exactly to shame the boys, because holding hands with another teenage boy is embarrassing, because it makes you look gay.

So I think there's plenty of homophobia to go around - by the principal and by the children.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by mousethief
I also am opposed to shaming as punishment on general principle, and it seems to me like bullying in and of itself. It seems abusive.

Surely part of the thing about public justice is that those found guilty should be held up to public censure - shame, if you like.

That is why there is a good case to be made for defendants in some cases - mainly to do with sexual assault allegations - being anonymous until and unless a guilty verdict is reached.

This element is well-recognised: its why cases in the Family Division involving children are only reported using initials and where, if necessary, cases are heard in camera (private) so that minors are spared from being identified in cases involving their warring parents.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A gay friend doesn't read it this way, and thinks that forcing a bully to hold hands with a gay boy he was bullying may make him "think twice" before he bullied a gay person again.
Where do you get the idea that one of the boys involved is gay? I didn't see that in any of the articles I read.

Sorry I wasn't clear. That was an example he gave for how this could be a good thing for gays at the school -- not a description of this case.

quote:
I think that the principal's intention was exactly to shame the boys, because holding hands with another teenage boy is embarrassing, because it makes you look gay.

Yes, that was what I thought also.

Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A gay friend doesn't read it this way, and thinks that forcing a bully to hold hands with a gay boy he was bullying may make him "think twice" before he bullied a gay person again.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be forced to hold hands with a kid who had been bullying me.

Posted by whitebait (# 7740) on :

At my (all male) school in Edinburgh in the 1970s a schoolteacher (known to be an evangelical Christian) spotted two boys touching eachother's hands under the desks.

He called them to the front of class, and said words to the effect that people who were that way inclined should be prepared to be open about it. He then made them run three times around the school buildings whilst holding hands.

Despite the fact that this was during classes, and few others would have seen them, our class had seen it, and the two boys were most embarrassed. I recall the uneasy silence in class during the whole incident.

It was very definitely an attempt to shame and humiliate the two boys, and in retrospect says more about the teacher's homophobia. It certainly left an impression on me. I came out very much later in life.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

It wouldn't work here where boys hold hands with and drape themselves around the neck of male friends, as girls do with one another - and where boys hold hands with their dads up to all sorts of ages and male friends hold hands in the street or when just having a chat - I sometimes think that unless they are physically in contact they cannot communicate as well.

I think it is wonderfully healthy!

In your story I think the principal is probably well-meaning but a bit of an ass.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
A gay friend doesn't read it this way, and thinks that forcing a bully to hold hands with a gay boy he was bullying may make him "think twice" before he bullied a gay person again.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to be forced to hold hands with a kid who had been bullying me.

Thinking of the bullies I experienced in school, I'm sure one of them would try to squeeze the shit out of my hand.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Ugh. Yes. Memories.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

My parish now includes a fair contingent of refugees and immigrants from Burundi. One of the interesting things that I as a white North American male in his 60s had to learn was to be willing to hold hands with a (male) priest in his 40s. Not a lot, and not long. But still.

John

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's hard to know how much of the reaction of the boys - and the other students around them - was actually intended by the principal. Just because they appear deeply embarrassed and people laughed at them, doesn't mean that the shaming was actually the principal's intention.

I suspect someone here in this story is homophobic. I'm just not sure precisely who.

The students seem publicly humiliated. Is it possible that the principal just reinforced in those students' minds that it is okay when you are in a position of power to subject to humiliation others who cannot defend themselves? I'd much rather he had stipulated they work together, as suggested upthread...supervised, of course. Perhaps some counseling, too.

Parent/student consent or not, they should have never been put in the position of making a choice between this or suspension.

Posted by Aelred of Rievaulx (# 16860) on :

This anti-homophobic bullying video from Ireland uses hand-holding in a wonderfully positive way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJxqvalFxM

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