|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Justin Webley's reasoning for rejecting gay marriage
|
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
|
Posted
I think we can avoid the Dead Horse here.
Apparently if the CofE accepted gay marriage it would lead to massacres in Africa.
Now to me this smacks of two things:
1: A flat out racist fabrication.
2: People looking for an excuse.
3: Even if you believe it it's giving in to terrorists.
On the other hand it does explain quite a lot. Including why Webley is openly willing to sacrifice the future of the Church in the UK. He thinks by doing so he is saving lives. Which ... is a take I can sympathise with (assuming he is telling the truth) and in his shoes might make the same decision. If he believes what he is saying then it's not himself he risks getting martyred but bystanders.
Interesting issue here.
--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I think we can avoid the Dead Horse here.
Apparently if the CofE accepted gay marriage it would lead to massacres in Africa.
Now to me this smacks of two things:
1: A flat out racist fabrication.
2: People looking for an excuse.
3: Even if you believe it it's giving in to terrorists.
On the other hand it does explain quite a lot. Including why Webley is openly willing to sacrifice the future of the Church in the UK. He thinks by doing so he is saving lives. Which ... is a take I can sympathise with (assuming he is telling the truth) and in his shoes might make the same decision. If he believes what he is saying then it's not himself he risks getting martyred but bystanders.
Interesting issue here.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) What I'd like to say is really only appropriate for Hell.
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
That was three things.
And it is Welby.
I think this is an interesting and probably valid reason for his actions. I am sure that he is acting in good faith, in an attempt to keep a degree of peace in Africa. That is laudable, because saving lives is a good thing to do.
However, a) I do not think that failing to accept gay marriage in the CofE will actually make a fig of difference to some of the more passionately unhinged sorts of people who would kill all of the Christians because the Christians are going to make them all gay. This is on the crazy edge of WBC ideas.
b) trying to secure some peace in Africa at the expense of the church at home is wrong. The Anglican Communion is not more important than the church at home. If the CofE dies, what is the value of the communion then?
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
So because a bunch of people on a different continent are such utterly bigoted fuckwits that they'll kill their neighbours based on what the Church in Britain does, the Church in Britain has to continue to perpetuate bigoted fuckwit policies?
Fuck that.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
...um, what Marvin and Schroediger's Cat said, except for the bit about it being a valid reason for his actions.
[ 04. April 2014, 16:13: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Arm the Christians?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I was prepared to give +Justin the benefit of the doubt ... no longer.
This "reasoning" is horseshit: moslem fundamentalists who are wiping out people in northern Nigeria will continue to try to wipe them out regardless of what the CofE does or pronounces.
If you think I'm wrong, try this:
There are fundamentalists in Pakistan and Afghanistan who massacre medical staff from the WHO and similar because they state that vaccination teams are, in fact, a cover for sterilising moslems: according to +Justin's argument the CofE should actively and vocally pronounce against vaccination programmes. So, why haven't we heard any condemnation of attempts to eradicate polio, etc?
The man is trying to find a fig-leaf and, it would seem, is happy to drag into the equation the victims of sectarian attack to bolster his actions at home.
Disgraceful.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
I think they are armed, at least in some countries. In some places it's already more or less a civil war between Christian and Islamic factions. There was a book I read on the subject a while ago... The Tenth Parallel: Where Christianity adn Islam Meet.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The problem with Welby's argument is that it can apply to any change in the social or gender mores of western society. I don't see how gay marriage on this score is any different from the changes generated from the feminist revolution. The ABC is certainly not stopping the ordination of female bishops because some African countries are patriarchal and do not recognize female leadership.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
FWIW the whole interview is available on YouTube, and the specific section where he addresses this issue is here.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The problem with Welby's argument is that it can apply to any change in the social or gender mores of western society. I don't see how gay marriage on this score is any different from the changes generated from the feminist revolution. The ABC is certainly not stopping the ordination of female bishops because some African countries are patriarchal and do not recognize female leadership.
Though what he says is not about whether it (equal marriage) is recognised or not in African countries, but that people get killed because of it.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
dv
Shipmate
# 15714
|
Posted
He apparently thinks that those slaughtering people in ditches are no less enlightened than folk who wish to bless gay marriages. The man is a moral cripple.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
Welby has a simplistic understanding of how religious persecution works.
If we are talking about the persecution of Christians in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, it is because those countries are explicit theocracies where a single religion is legislated as the official one by law.
If we are talking about the persecution of Christians in African countries, much of it is due to intertribal and ethnic conflict, created in many cases, btw, by western imperialism. The ABC would score more points for me if he apologized for Britain screwing things up in Africa during the 19th century.
The notion that a CofE decision to celebrate SSM would affect conflicts in Africa demonstrates that the ABC exaggerates the importance of the Church on the world stage. As much as some Brits would like to think, the world does not revolve around the UK.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
Other people's actions can never make your actions morally wrong. If your actions are morally wrong to begin with - e.g. burning other people's holy books - then you share some culpability for their reactions. But if you're doing something that's morally permissible e.g. getting married - then you aren't at fault for anybody else's reactions.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Hosts agree. It is a Dead Horse topic. Transferring.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Now to me this smacks of two things:
1: A flat out racist fabrication.
2: People looking for an excuse.
3: Even if you believe it it's giving in to terrorists.
Among our many weapons are fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to the Pope.
I must say that I am not sold on an account of Muslim fundamentalism that says that the likes of Boko Haram are content to dwell in peace and amity with Christians unless an English Clergyperson presides over a same sex wedding, at which point it becomes "kill them all, God will know his own". And, pushing the boat out here, I am not sure that I want to give the likes of Boko Haram a veto on the Church of England's position on human sexuality. It pains me to raise the issue of Bad Faith at this point but my Sartredar has rather kicked in and won't go away.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The ABC is certainly not stopping the ordination of female bishops because some African countries are patriarchal and do not recognize female leadership.
Some African Anglican provinces ordained women long before England did. They have the lead on us there.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
If he wants to avoid the slaughter of Christians, shouldn't he be stopping missionary and church support in Africa. Otherwise, by his logic, he's responsible for the murder of Christians by converting people to Christianity.
What a pathetic loser.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
I've been trying to think of historical parallels to this and failing. The closest I get to it is the Satanic verses/Prophet cartoons/Innocence of the muslims controversies where it's argued by some that free speech (ranging from stuff with literary merit through ephemera to the genuinely awful) which doesn't accept the taboos of another religious group must be stifled lest fundamentalists of the outraged religious group commit crimes here and in other countries. So, for example, an innocent foreign embassy staff member gets killed (allegedly) or people get killed in a confrontation with police because someone is outraged that 'blasphemous' free speech wasn't stopped in another country.
It seems to rely on the outraged having an anti-Enlightenment view of blasphemy ie. being willing to kill to uphold outraged religious beliefs.
It's almost as if the Church of England has re-introduced the blasphemy acts unilaterally but that it is basing them not on Christian standards but on fundamentalist Islamic ones - the Church of England may not do anything that African Islamists would find blasphemous and which might tend to outrage them, but the problem is that the standards of Jihadis, many of whom are Salafis who wish a return to the days of the 7th century caliphate cannot be the basis of a modern democracy or a post-Enlightenment church.
The solution to puritanical Jihad is better security for the people threatened by it. If openly giving aid from a non fascist western source which doesn't persecute women and gays endangers people then the aid needs to be given via non-religious professional bodies, but of course they get targeted too - someone above was mentioning the attacks on medical workers, and of course the Taliban attacks on girls' schools. If people don't want to be associated with a western church with post-enlightenment views, then links could be cut to save face for them so they can anathematise the horrors of western equality.
But it surely can't be a solution to regulate Christian expressions of belief via the standards of fundamentalist Islamic militias. Welby should be campaigning for greater security for these people and paying for it, if need be, before he should be telling people that Salafis and Jihadis must determine whether our neighbours can marry. The Anglican communion ought to be broken up, rather than be used to make this kind of excuse.
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
I should point out that what I meant by a "valid" reason, I meant that if his analysis was correct, it would explain and justify his actions.
I then argued that his analysis was mistaken, which is is.
I quite like Justin, but on this, he has made a mistake. Sadly, it is the mistakes that most leaders are remembered for, not their successes.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
If he wants to avoid the slaughter of Christians, shouldn't he be stopping missionary and church support in Africa. Otherwise, by his logic, he's responsible for the murder of Christians by converting people to Christianity.
What a pathetic loser.
Go and learn some history. The part of Africa he was directly talking about - Nigeria - was not "converted" by white missionaries from Europe or North America, they mostly failed desperately. The start mostly came from black missionaries from Sierra Leone and the Caribbean, but the big mass conversions (and they were huge) were led by local people.
The Anglican church in Nigeria was set up by the British Church Missionary Society (and its first bishop was an African, Samuel Ajayi) in the early 19th century and remained rather small outside a few coastal colonies, and most of its ministers were African. In the late 19th century British government doctrine changed and they tried to remove black ministers from positions of influence, so a large part of the Anglicans broke away to form a locally-run, locally-led connexion of churches (with some informal support from CMS which has always promoted local leadership in missionary churches, and arranged for bishops from outside Nigeria to ordain Nigerian clergy who the government-appointed Anglican bishops would not ordain - what goes around comes around).
The now very large, and still growing, Anglican prescence in Nigeria is descended from these African-led churches as much as if not more than from the white-led ones. And they export missionaries these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The ABC would score more points for me if he apologized for Britain screwing things up in Africa during the 19th century.
What makes you think he hasn't?
[ 04. April 2014, 19:12: Message edited by: ken ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...
The now very large, and still growing, Anglican prescence in Nigeria is descended from these African-led churches as much as if not more than from the white-led ones. And they export missionaries these days.
But by his dazzling logic the murders are caused by the presence of the white led churches from countries where gays are tolerated. If they pull out, leaving only the local black run churches, then the problem should go away.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
Has the ABC ever considered the fact that by allowing SSM, it could send the message around the world that LGBT people are in fact, people like everyone else and that this could go someway in ending homophobic violence?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Putin did not need Western influence to persecute gays, why do people in Africa?
This is about power, ultimately.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
Sounds roughly equivalent to the ideas that led evangelicals to cancel their support of impoverished children in Africa through World Vision because "the gays made them do it".
That didn't lead to the slaughter of innocents...well, only by implying that starvation was the fault of the existence of gays...but it has led to a diminution of the evangelical church (or so one would hope)
Maybe it is time to wrap up the C of E and replace it with some truly English societal focus - the United Force of Morris Dancing and Self-Help or something, which no person outside England would bother to notice.
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
This is a pathetic comment from Welby on many levels.
For a start, Muslims don't need an excuse to kill Christians in Nigeria. Nor vice versa. SSM in the UK isn't going to make one iota of difference.
You can't make a judgement on what is right to do on the basis that someone somewhere in the world might take it the wrong way. That's not morality - just cowardice.
If Welby were definitely "pro" SSM, then his argument might carry more weight. "OK - I am really in favour, but the consequences could be catastrophic." But Welby ISN'T in favour (unless he has completely changed his opinion in the last few months). This statement is simply his way of trying to pin the blame on other people for his own opposition to SSM. And that's not just cowardice, but hypocrisy.
And if Welby is so concerned about what is happening in Nigeria and Uganda, where are his statements of opposition to the homophobic laws in those countries and the homophobic oppression that leaves gays and lesbians in fear of their lives? When did he last speak out against that?
The man is a complete tosser.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And if Welby is so concerned about what is happening in Nigeria and Uganda, where are his statements of opposition to the homophobic laws in those countries and the homophobic oppression that leaves gays and lesbians in fear of their lives? When did he last speak out
Dunno when he last did, but you could try looking at some of the news reports of his visit to African countries in January and February is year. Or the letter sent to bishops n the Communion just before that.
What is it with Archbishops of Canterbury that turns liberal Christians into biased deaf credulous whingers?
And why the astonishing and ugly level of ignorance of African Christianity?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
It seems oddly reminiscent of the claims around here that we can't do anything about climate change until other countries do. Apparently we can't do too much about discrimination against homosexuals until other countries do.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
There are several quoted speeches and interviews on the ABC's website from his African visit:
The ones that could be relevant are:
Archbishop prays at a site of murdered church workers - in South Sudan
Nigerian Anglican Church a Powerhouse
World Service interview on Nigeria
There's nothing on homophobic laws in those public statements.
The letter to the Primates of the Anglican Communion and Presidents of Uganda and Nigeria is dated 29 January 2014 and is here. It quotes the Dromantine Communiqué of 2005.:
quote:
‘….we wish to make it quite clear that in our discussion and assessment of moral appropriateness of specific human behaviours, we continue unreservedly to be committed to the pastoral support and care of homosexual people.
The victimisation or diminishment of human beings whose affections happen to be ordered towards people of the same sex is anathema to us. We assure homosexual people that they are children of God, loved and valued by Him and deserving the best we can give - pastoral care and friendship.’
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What is it with Archbishops of Canterbury that turns liberal Christians into biased deaf credulous whingers?
I guess it's the simple fact that any post-modern ABC who puts his or her head above the parapet on same-sex relationships/marriage straight away gets fired at from both directions.
Hardly a place where liberalism survives, well not for very long anyway.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
What is it with Archbishops of Canterbury that turns liberal Christians into biased deaf credulous whingers?
I think it is b/c the ABC seems to be asserting a false Via Media between affirming and opposing homosexuality.
On the one hand, the Church tells people in Africa to not kill or jail LGBT persons. On the other hand, the Church does not marry LGBT couples and LGBT clergy are worried for their jobs if they get civilly married in England.
It's as if the CofE wants to be the happy and sensible middle man between the TEC and the African churches.
I call it "polite homophobia."
[ 05. April 2014, 12:30: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Yes, but time was when the possible penalties were far higher and yet ABCs stuck to their guns if they felt they were right.
No one would suggest that +Justin (or Rowan, in his day) face the fate the Cranmer or Becket: but is it too much to ask that if a thing if wrong in the Anglican Communion (of which they are supposed to be head) then they condemn it?
If homophobia and persecution is wrong for a UK Christian, what makes it OK for an African.
The decision to take the coward's way out is bad enough: the attempts to justify leave one feeling nauseous.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
fluff
Shipmate
# 12871
|
Posted
Welby's reasoning is a classic example of kettle logic.
I don't agree with equal marriage.
I can't implement equal marriage because of homophobia in Africa.
An article demonstrating a similar phenomenon can be accessed here.
[ 05. April 2014, 16:46: Message edited by: Louise ]
Posts: 109 | From: South England | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
My thoughts on the matter are indeed in Hell, to which the ABC is duly consigned by laser.
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
fluff
Shipmate
# 12871
|
Posted
Are the URL problems in my above post? Apologies if so. Not sure what to do about this...
Posts: 109 | From: South England | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
|
Posted
The responses to Justin have focussed on the African impact of things. But of course the African question was not the first issue he was addressing. He started by expressing the theological and canonical reasons why the Church of England does not support gay marriage. I know a lot (the majority?) of Shipmates don't accept Canon B30 and the position as it currently is defined by the CofE, but that was his starting point. The consequences in relation to Africa followed from that.
The African issue is more difficult for those on both sides of the argument. The criminalisation of/persecution of/violence against LGBT people in Africa is absolutely reprehensible, and to be campaigned against and condemned. Uganda in particular is problematic. But similarly it is impossible to ignore the point Justin is making about one of the pretexts being used by Muslims against Christians in (eg) Nigeria. Neither side in the debate can ignore the knock-on effects of our actions and actions (and with many Africans in the Church in London, we are only too conscious of their concerns). Once we admit that we have a care for the Church in Africa (and we do), we have to listen to what they have to say. Being prepared to condemn Ugandan homophobia necessitates engagement with Ugandan church people who don't get where we are coming from. Being prepared to support persecuted Nigerians also necessitates listening to their concerns.
Some may that the argument on "equal marriage" is over in the Church of England. It isn't. And Justin and the HoB still have the right to express a contrary view. We know that Thinking Anglicans and others will just pile in whenever that contrary view is expressed. But the two years of facilitated conversations to which we have committed ourselves are to be a two-way, not a one-way listening process.
--------------------
Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fluff:
Are the URL problems in my above post? Apologies if so. Not sure what to do about this...
There seems to be an extra "http" which some nice Host might be able to remove for you.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
But the two years of facilitated conversations to which we have committed ourselves are to be a two-way, not a one-way listening process.
Well, listening was supposed to have started after Lambeth 1988. But didn't. Espcially as the Nigerian and Ugandan bishops refused to listen (as has the current Bishop of Birkenhead) in the basis that scripture has spoken so there is no more to say.
The Pilling Report people claim to have listened but nowhere do they summarise what they heard.
It seems that 'listening', even to people's personal testimonies, is an exercise in being polite while continuing to do nothing.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Some may that the argument on "equal marriage" is over in the Church of England. It isn't. And Justin and the HoB still have the right to express a contrary view. We know that Thinking Anglicans and others will just pile in whenever that contrary view is expressed. But the two years of facilitated conversations to which we have committed ourselves are to be a two-way, not a one-way listening process.
Honestly, Bishop, how can those who support equal marriage in the Church continue to believe that they're part of a real two-way listening process when the Archbishop of Canterbury tells them that they're responsible for murdered Africans?
It's an outrageous and reprehensible slander. If there were no equal marriage anywhere in the West, Muslim thugs would still be murdering Christians (and Christian thugs, let's add, would be murdering Muslims); they would simply use a different pretext.
As a member of the Episcopal Church of the United States, I am feeling ever more confident that we need to cut our links with the C of E. Let's end this sham "communion" in which the person who is supposed to be our titular leader can speak such slanders!
Archbishop Welby should be ashamed of himself ... and so should anyone who defends him.
--------------------
שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Dubious Thomas: quote:
If there were no equal marriage anywhere in the West, Muslim thugs would still be murdering Christians (and Christian thugs, let's add, would be murdering Muslims); they would simply use a different pretext.
This.
However as an American Episcopalian, I'd prefer to remain in relationship with his church while telling him that he is being outragreous on this issue on all our behalfs. I've had it with schism.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
As a member of the Episcopal Church of the United States, I am feeling ever more confident that we need to cut our links with the C of E. Let's end this sham "communion" in which the person who is supposed to be our titular leader can speak such slanders!
Archbishop Welby should be ashamed of himself ... and so should anyone who defends him.
If TEC ever create plants in this country, I would be towards the front of the queue.
[ 05. April 2014, 17:05: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Well, listening was supposed to have started after Lambeth 1988. But didn't.
My mistake - I meant 1988.
And re- posts above about severing links with the C of E, I too would be in the queue for links with TEC.
I am ashamed of our C of E bishops and have been ever since 'Some Issues in Human Sexuality' misquoted the most up to date Hebrew Leviticus commentary, written by a friend of mine, simultaneously proof-texting other writers in order to come to the conclusion it had already wanted.
Ditto the Pilling Report and its misuse of statistics e.g. it quotes a doorstep survey in which only 1% said they were gay - well do you tell any doorstep canvasser the truth? It then suggested that such a percentage was statistically irrelevant.
Meanwhile, it went on to quote stats. that said that 1% could change their orientation and took this figure as relevant - the same figure that was previously IRrelevant. (Meanwhile ignoring the fact that 70% of that 1% was 'straights' who converted to gay, not the other way round.)
If that is the material which helps our bishops to come to one mind, then our bishops are either incredibly stupid of incredibly mislead.
No amount of 'facilitated listening' is likely to hel[p them if they are so incredibly naive.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
Pete173, I expect you know the saying, 'Everything before the "but" is bullshit.'
[ 05. April 2014, 17:29: Message edited by: Amos ]
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Being prepared to support persecuted Nigerians also necessitates listening to their concerns.
There is a whole lot of difference between "listening to their concerns" and "using scare stories as a pretext". Welby seems to be doing the latter.
Of course it is right to listen to concerns from people who are facing attacks. No-one is suggesting otherwise (and the implication in Welby's comments that "liberals" don't care about what happens to fellow Christians in Nigeria is quite frankly insulting). But it is what you do about those concerns that matters. Sadly, the truth is that no matter what decision is made by the C of E about SSM, Christians will still find themselves under attack from Islamists. So NOT embracing SSM will make no difference - and it is misleading to suggest otherwise.
I am not too sure what anyone CAN do about the interfaith tensions in places like Nigeria and Sudan. But using them as a pathetic figleaf to cover your own anti-SSM tendencies is not helpful to anyone.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fluff
Shipmate
# 12871
|
Posted
quote:
There seems to be an extra "http" which some nice Host might be able to remove for you. - Pigwidgeon
Thanks! Rather better...
Posts: 109 | From: South England | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Ah, here we go. From the Bishop's fellow Londoner and slaphead, now under the shadow of the Elephant and Castle:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/20/gayrights.religion2
Another 'slaphead' here - clearly we have too much testosterone.
He mentions the 1991 document Issues in Human Sexuality - this was never voted on, was 'guidance' only yet has become a sort of doctrine - you cannot apply for ordination unless you sign a form saying that you will 'abide by' it. I'd have thought it would be good if ordinands were asked to 'abide by' the Creed. At least that was agreed and voted on by the Universal Church.
Having read through Giles' article, i now see that it was written in 2003 - how far backward we have travelled since then.
The C of e has become an irrelevant laughing stock, led by our bishops.
If i wasn't an anglo-catholic, I would abolish bishops.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
So, are Scott Lively and his merry band going to have invitations to the next Lambeth Conference?
I see that the Justin is visiting the US next. How is he going to reply to those who have rightly taken offence at his saying that 'something that happened in America' (probably meaning the consecration of openly gay bishops) was responsible for the murder of innocent (ie heterosexual) African Christians?
[ 05. April 2014, 18:43: Message edited by: Amos ]
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
