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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Female ABC and Anglican-Catholic Relations
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
16 July, 2014 22:35
So imagine there's a female Archbishop of Canterbury one day. Would the practice of Roman Catholic Popes giving Archbishops of Canterbury episcopal insignia as presents stop?
Anglican Bishops have been allowed to lead vespers in Roman Catholic churches while wearing episcopal insignia. With female Church of England bishops, will this practice continue?
I know that the RCC does not recognize the validity of Anglican orders anyway, but it's still been willing to make these ecumenical gestures so far - will they stop once female Anglican bishops might take part in them?
I don't know if there are examples from the Anglican provinces that already have female bishops to draw from.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
16 July, 2014 22:56
I think it will very much depend on the mood of the Bishop of Rome at the time. The character of personal relations between the Pope and the ABC has long been at odds with the official statements of the Vatican. I hold out the faint hope that a future female ABC might trigger a revelation to the Holy Father that might bring about the same developments in the RCC.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
17 July, 2014 02:20
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I know that the RCC does not recognize the validity of Anglican orders anyway, but it's still been willing to make these ecumenical gestures so far - will they stop once female Anglican bishops might take part in them?
I don't see why. Why should the RCC view a "female lay leader of an ecclesial organization" any different from a male lay leader of the same group?
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
17 July, 2014 05:14
Rome talks about a "hierarchy of truths" when it comes to Ecumenical relations. Women's ordination is up there with abortion and same sex marriage as something that must be opposed at all costs for Rome. So it may be ok to give episcopal insignia to male Anglican bishops or to allow them to preside at a vespers service in a Catholic church wearing episcopal insignia - even when Rome teaches that Anglican orders are null and void - but to appear to lend any support to the idea of women's ordination - especially since Anglican understanding of holy orders and apostolic succession is closer to Rome's than other denominations that emerged from the Reformation - would be something that I don't think Rome would be willing to do in any way - or at least not in a way as blatant as what Rome has been allowing with male Anglican bishops. But I may be wrong.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
18 July, 2014 22:02
My prediction is that if there is a female ABC the Pope will not give her any episcopal regalia. I'm not sure if he would let her preside (or co-preside) at vespers in her own episcopal regalia in a Catholic Church. He might. Especially if the liturgy is altered enough from Roman Catholic vespers that it can be called an "Ecumenical prayer service" and so standard liturgical rubrics would not apply. But there are rubrics in the RCC even for ecumenical services. I just don't know them.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
21 July, 2014 00:18
By the time there's a female ABC the Anglican Communion might already have embarked upon the process of fragmentation.
This gives rise to thoughts as to the right kind of woman for the job, and the circumstances she'd inherit. She'd certainly have to be a consummate politician and a smooth operator to hold the Communion together as well as charming the RCC. Too much of a politician for many to stomach, I imagine. Alternatively, if the Communion had already broken up by that point she'd have a less conflicted role as the outspoken left-wing leader of a much smaller, more liberal institution, in which case, the RCC would probably just lose interest. I think the RCC might have re-directed its attention towards staging a takeover of worldwide Pentecostalism by that stage!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
21 July, 2014 20:35
Is that female ABC a Lesbian?
This does seem like about as minor an issue as could be. The Pope allowing the ABC to preach is not guaranteed for the next ABC or the next pope. And it doesn't really change much. Two or three times in his life the ABC won't be able to preach in a Catholic Church. That's about as tiny a problem as there could be.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
02 August, 2014 19:28
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
My prediction is that if there is a female ABC the Pope will not give her any episcopal regalia. I'm not sure if he would let her preside (or co-preside) at vespers in her own episcopal regalia in a Catholic Church. He might. Especially if the liturgy is altered enough from Roman Catholic vespers that it can be called an "Ecumenical prayer service" and so standard liturgical rubrics would not apply. But there are rubrics in the RCC even for ecumenical services. I just don't know them.
Vespers would not be the decision point here; it is an office at which unordained can officiate-- indeed, there are two RC monasteries (one closed, one open) near me where vespers is sung by nuns, with a nun officiating. I have attended nun-driven vespers in a parish church in Spain (held instead of an evening Mass as the priest's car had broken down).
The episcopal ring was given by Paul VI to Michael Ramsey, who willed it to his successors-- I cannot recall which pope gave the pectoral cross, although various archbishops of Canterbury have received panagia from the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Romania, Bulgarian, and Romania, among others. Whether or not future gifts include episcopal paraphernalia will depend on the pope du jour.
The real question is whether or not the use of (IIRC) the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore for archbishops of Canterbury would continue to operate for a woman bishop. This was a Paul VI decision, since confirmed by J2P2, B16 and Pope Frank.
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
04 August, 2014 09:09
Svitlana: quote:
Alternatively, if the Communion had already broken up by that point she'd have a less conflicted role as the outspoken left-wing leader of a much smaller, more liberal institution...
What makes you think a female ABC would be left-wing and theologically liberal? All the women priests I know are theologically orthodox (not surprising really, as the church I worship in is Aff Cath). I haven't interrogated them about their political beliefs, but I wouldn't assume they are all left-wing - I'd expect at least half to be moderately right-wing (from a European perspective, though an American would probably think we're all raving communists). I know at least one who is opposed to same-sex marriage. If the C of E does split it will probably split into several fragments; it's likely that more than one of these will have women priests.
Factionalism in the C of E is a lot more complicated than you seem to think.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
04 August, 2014 21:57
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
]What makes you think a female ABC would be left-wing and theologically liberal? All the women priests I know are theologically orthodox (not surprising really, as the church I worship in is Aff Cath). I haven't interrogated them about their political beliefs, but I wouldn't assume they are all left-wing - I'd expect at least half to be moderately right-wing (from a European perspective, though an American would probably think we're all raving communists). I know at least one who is opposed to same-sex marriage. If the C of E does split it will probably split into several fragments; it's likely that more than one of these will have women priests.
Factionalism in the C of E is a lot more complicated than you seem to think.
My point wasn't that a female ABC would automatically be left-wing, but that a fragmented CofE might leave a left-wing core. (And left-wing doesn't necessarily mean non-orthodox, just as right-wing doesn't necessarily mean orthodox.) That left-wing core would presumably choose a left-wing leader, whether male or female, because it would no longer be constrained by the need to be a broad church. But there are plenty of other possible scenarios, I'm sure.
I do understand by now that the CofE is a dreadfully complicated institution. So complicated that only the cleverest people should be in the CofE, perhaps!
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
05 August, 2014 08:47
Svitlana: quote:
I do understand by now that the CofE is a dreadfully complicated institution. So complicated that only the cleverest people should be in the CofE, perhaps!
We're not proud: we'll take anybody And to paraphrase Babylon 5: Understanding is not required. Nor is obedience.
Not yet, anyway... turning up most Sundays and being willing to go on the coffee rota is usually enough for most churches. Either or both of these requirements may be waived.
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Ahleal V
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# 8404
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Posted
08 August, 2014 10:36
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The real question is whether or not the use of (IIRC) the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore for archbishops of Canterbury would continue to operate for a woman bishop. This was a Paul VI decision, since confirmed by J2P2, B16 and Pope Frank.
I thought that +Rowan's celebration of the sacraments in S.Sabina was a one-off which seemed to cause great discontent in some circles? Is it custom for +Canterbury to celebrate at Maria Maggiore when in Rome?
Jamie, whilst I know a few young AC women-priests who are not generally on the liberal end of things, they are the exception, I think. Presumably those who are likely to be raised to the episcopate in the next few years - the present Deans and such - are generally on the left-wing, liberal end of things?
x
AV
[ 08. August 2014, 09:38: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
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Ahleal V
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# 8404
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Posted
08 August, 2014 10:39
JaneR, sorry, I seem to have misread you as Jamie!
Apologies,
AV
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
13 August, 2014 22:38
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
I do understand by now that the CofE is a dreadfully complicated institution. So complicated that only the cleverest people should be in the CofE, perhaps!
We're not proud: we'll take anybody And to paraphrase Babylon 5: Understanding is not required. Nor is obedience.
Not yet, anyway... turning up most Sundays and being willing to go on the coffee rota is usually enough for most churches. Either or both of these requirements may be waived.
Although I tend to worship with the CofE these days, one of the reasons why I don't feel I belong is because it seems to be such a complicated institution, and one that doesn't encourage lay involvement with the bigger picture. I come from a denomination where understanding how things 'work' seems to be valued a bit more. To me, this is a form of lay empowerment.
I find myself wondering whether a female archbishop would be more radical than a male one regarding lay engagement, or whether the understanding would still be that lay people can just go on a rota if they really must be involved with anything. I don't know if there's any gender difference in how the clergy envision lay empowerment, but the dynamic could be interesting, since most of the 'lay empowerment' in question would involve women, because they're in the majority in church life. It's often said that female leaders tend not to encourage and support other women as they could. I don't know how this is seen in terms of church life.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
13 August, 2014 23:42
No, you're just going to the wrong CofE church. Other churches will tell you more about involvement if you desperately want to sit on Synod and all the other arcane institutions. If other churches don't tell us how things work, how do you think the rest of us CofE bods know anything?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
14 August, 2014 00:14
This may be a tangent, but I don't particularly want to be depicted as 'desperate', just as someone who thinks it's reasonable to be informed about the institution that would like some of my time and money. But maybe that's all it takes to be seen as 'desperate' in the CofE!
Maybe one day I'll discover the 'right' CofE church, but I got a bit tired of church hopping.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
14 August, 2014 09:49
Svitlana: quote:
Although I tend to worship with the CofE these days, one of the reasons why I don't feel I belong is because it seems to be such a complicated institution, and one that doesn't encourage lay involvement with the bigger picture. I come from a denomination where understanding how things 'work' seems to be valued a bit more. To me, this is a form of lay empowerment.
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Sorry, I thought you were joking... which is why my reply was not entirely serious.
I think part of the problem is that (because of its history) the C of E is a compromise between several different models of how a church should work. When we broke away from Rome the hierarchical structures were left intact, but as time went on parish councils got more power. Cathedrals are outside the parish system and most people are fuzzy about exactly how they slot into the structure. Also (this being the Anglican church) the average pew-sitter does not pay much attention to the antics of the hierarchy unless they do something embarrassing (such as choosing the wrong side in the Occupy London protest) or outrageous (like voting No to women bishops against the wishes of the majority).
And the other problem is that everyone expects the Archbishop of Canterbury to behave like the Pope. He has nowhere near that amount of authority. He only has direct authority over the Church of England; all the other national Anglican churches (including, for example, the Church in Wales) are independent and can govern themselves as they see fit. If they wanted to take themselves out of communion with Canterbury, they could. Exerting his authority over the C of E is difficult enough, as the continuing dispute over women priests has demonstrated.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
15 August, 2014 23:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The real question is whether or not the use of (IIRC) the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore for archbishops of Canterbury would continue to operate for a woman bishop. This was a Paul VI decision, since confirmed by J2P2, B16 and Pope Frank.
I thought that +Rowan's celebration of the sacraments in S.Sabina was a one-off which seemed to cause great discontent in some circles? Is it custom for +Canterbury to celebrate at Maria Maggiore when in Rome?
Jamie, whilst I know a few young AC women-priests who are not generally on the liberal end of things, they are the exception, I think. Presumably those who are likely to be raised to the episcopate in the next few years - the present Deans and such - are generally on the left-wing, liberal end of things?
x
AV
ah it may have been Sta Sabina! I must check on this. In any case the church in question is provided for Canterbury use when in Rome. It was a top-down decision, and many integrist bloggers (as you discovered) blew their gaskets sideways. But it is a 40-year old concession, and there are many who are more papal than the pope.
The women clergy of my acquaintance tend to be more of the spiky variety, but I general avoid venues where I would have to socialize with non-spiky clerics, such is my intolerance toward other points of view, a phenomenon growing with age.
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