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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oh yeah, Dr Beeching
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
So it is now official that Vicky Beeching has come out.
Given her prominence across denominations, this will be fairly big news to some. She has written before about how some conservatives had boycotted her work (damaging her income) after her support of equal marriage. To some, this may be the last straw about using her music in worship.
For your courage, Vicky, we salute you. We wish you all the happiness in the world, including making up for some lost time. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Massively proud of her.
And angry at a church that has meant she's suffered alone for so long.
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
And here I was thinking that we were to do a rehash of the Beeching railway cuts of the mid-60s!
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
Massively proud of her.
And angry at a church that has meant she's suffered alone for so long.
Hell yes, that interview was gut-wrenching.
Beeching's courage may kickstart a seachange in evangelicalism and Anglicanism. She's a major worship singer-songwriter on both sides of the Atlantic, has headlined festivals like England's Spring Harvest, and, most importantly, is close friends with the Welbys.
Justin Welby would need a heart of ice to see the effect of the church's homophobia on Beeching and not think, "God, what have we, have I, done to my friend?" This'll bring the consequences of "traditional teaching" home to him more than a thousand "facilitated conversations."
It might just prove the wakeup call he so desperately needs.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
Massively proud of her.
And angry at a church that has meant she's suffered alone for so long.
Hell yes, that interview was gut-wrenching.
Beeching's courage may kickstart a seachange in evangelicalism and Anglicanism. She's a major worship singer-songwriter on both sides of the Atlantic, has headlined festivals like England's Spring Harvest, and, most importantly, is close friends with the Welbys.
Justin Welby would need a heart of ice to see the effect of the church's homophobia on Beeching and not think, "God, what have we, have I, done to my friend?" This'll bring the consequences of "traditional teaching" home to him more than a thousand "facilitated conversations."
It might just prove the wakeup call he so desperately needs.
I have mixed reactions to this. On the one hand, I agree that maybe this will prove to be a turning point for Welby and Anglican evangelicalism. But on the other hand, I find myself saying "why the fuck should a "famous" Christian's experience count more than the suffering of countless gay and lesbian "ordinary" Christians whose stories have been ignored and dismissed so brutally in recent years?"
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I have mixed reactions to this. On the one hand, I agree that maybe this will prove to be a turning point for Welby and Anglican evangelicalism. But on the other hand, I find myself saying "why the fuck should a "famous" Christian's experience count more than the suffering of countless gay and lesbian "ordinary" Christians whose stories have been ignored and dismissed so brutally in recent years?"
It doesn't, to any degree; it just happens that she's close to a man with the power and platform to effect change.
Of course Welby should've stood up for lesbian and gay people long ago, but we often overlook things until they become personal. Having a friend or relative come out is one of most powerful catalysts for change.
Welby's just had a hard, long overdue punch in the gut. This is no longer an abstracted issue; from today, he knows that teaching he defends left his daughter's friend on a chemo drip. All LGBT people would benefit if he takes the lesson to heart.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
But on the other hand, I find myself saying "why the fuck should a "famous" Christian's experience count more than the suffering of countless gay and lesbian "ordinary" Christians whose stories have been ignored and dismissed so brutally in recent years?"
It shouldn't, but that's not the world we live in. It's been shown time and again that the most significant factor in converting people from homophobia is them actually knowing someone who is homosexual. When it's the abstract concept of "teh gayz" it's easy to demonise them, when it's the personalised "my friend Vicky who I love" it's less so.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't think it will have any effect. Homophobia is institutionalized in various churches, and does not hinge on knowing some nice gays and lesbians, or knowing some who have suffered a lot.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm delighted that she has come out. Although I don't know her, it seems that she is a pretty serious theologian. So I hope that she doesn't find herself having to speak on "The Gay Issue" every time she stands on a platform for the next five years, but can continue to speak on anything that interests her.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
can continue to speak on anything that interests her.
Probably will need to, because judging by the venues, I guess her worship-leading career has just taken a serious hit ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
(I confess I thought this thread must be about railways too)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I don't follow that music scene very much nowadays, so I don't know her. But I know she's not the first. Jennifer Knapp came out, Ray Boltz came out, a young guy who (until then) broadcast one of the most popular Christian Contemporary Music television shows came out.
And there was a considerable backlash against all of them.
In the course of looking things up to check names, I discovered that being in favour of same-sex marriage will cause you a backlash too. Folks have been yanking Jars of Clay off their playlists after the lead singer expressed his support for same-sex marriage a few months ago (or at least, his inability to understand the logic of the argument AGAINST same-sex marriage).
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(I confess I thought this thread must be about railways too)
So did I ... IMO that would have been MUCH more interesting!
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
P.S. Is she "Dr." Beeching anyway? I had rather thought that her Ph.D. studies were still ongoing, but I may be out-of-date on that.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
P.S. Is she "Dr." Beeching anyway? I had rather thought that her Ph.D. studies were still ongoing, but I may be out-of-date on that.
Not yet, I was being a bit mischievous with the title. She's still working on her thesis on transhumanism.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(I confess I thought this thread must be about railways too)
So did I ... IMO that would have been MUCH more interesting!
Well you did say quote:
every time she stands on a platform for the next five years
... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 14. August 2014, 10:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
What - a signal failure at East Croydon again?
Seriously, I salute her for being honest. I'm sure we can all hear the sound of Evangelical doors being slammed shut in her face, but hopefully her integrity will open others.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Reading her story, there was so much that resonated with me and reminded me of my own experiences in evangelical churches. I am really excited for her and for what she's going to bring to the church.
I also hope that LGBT issues can be seen as whole-church issues and not 'liberal issues' because of this and hopefully other evangelicals coming out, as I'm sure will happen.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
Massively proud of her.
And angry at a church that has meant she's suffered alone for so long.
Hell yes, that interview was gut-wrenching.
Beeching's courage may kickstart a seachange in evangelicalism and Anglicanism. She's a major worship singer-songwriter on both sides of the Atlantic, has headlined festivals like England's Spring Harvest, and, most importantly, is close friends with the Welbys.
Justin Welby would need a heart of ice to see the effect of the church's homophobia on Beeching and not think, "God, what have we, have I, done to my friend?" This'll bring the consequences of "traditional teaching" home to him more than a thousand "facilitated conversations."
It might just prove the wakeup call he so desperately needs.
He has started to wake up. He commissioned a report into Homophobic Bullying in Church Schools and its guidance now forms part of SIAMS inspections.
It is seen as too radical by some bishops and as 'promoting homosexuality'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think it will have any effect. Homophobia is institutionalized in various churches, and does not hinge on knowing some nice gays and lesbians, or knowing some who have suffered a lot.
It won't have any direct effect. But it can have an indirect effect by making individuals more receptive. Individuals can leave churches in which homophobia is institutionalized. If enough leave homophobic churches to join or start non-homophobic churches, the homophobic churches they leave could conceivably collapse.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If enough leave homophobic churches to join or start non-homophobic churches, the homophobic churches they leave could conceivably collapse.
Is that something you would want to see? Personally, I would prefer to see a transformation rather than collapse.
What is particularly admirable is that Vicky is looking to stay in the church rather than leave, which seems to have perplexed some of the non-christians commenters. Too many who have given up on their faith have done so because of the way they were treated by other people, so it's good to see her be a bit stubborn, in spite of some of the poor treatment she's received in the past.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Call me a grouch (what a surprise!), but I really have a problem with Vicky Beeching becoming a poster girl for LGBT Christians.
For a start, there are plenty of other people who are far more qualified to speak out on this subject. I repeat, why should her voice be listened to and not theirs?
But mainly, it is because she, by her own admission, is still in the process of coming out. There are huge issues she still has to work through. For her own well-being, she would be better off spending how ever long it takes to do that away from the public eye (especially the vindictive eye of evangelicals who feel betrayed).
My advice to her would be "now you've outed yourself, don't accept any invitations to speak at conferences or whatever, unless it is on a topic completely separate from LGBT issues. Don't talk to anyone about your situation unless it is someone you trust 100% to respect confidentiality."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Call me a grouch (what a surprise!), but I really have a problem with Vicky Beeching becoming a poster girl for LGBT Christians.
For a start, there are plenty of other people who are far more qualified to speak out on this subject. I repeat, why should her voice be listened to and not theirs?
But mainly, it is because she, by her own admission, is still in the process of coming out. There are huge issues she still has to work through. For her own well-being, she would be better off spending how ever long it takes to do that away from the public eye (especially the vindictive eye of evangelicals who feel betrayed).
My advice to her would be "now you've outed yourself, don't accept any invitations to speak at conferences or whatever, unless it is on a topic completely separate from LGBT issues. Don't talk to anyone about your situation unless it is someone you trust 100% to respect confidentiality."
Sorry, but why are there other people who are more qualified to speak on the subject? She's LGBT, she's a Christian, what other qualifications are needed? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I don't think she's a poster girl for LGBT Christians - at least not yet - since there are already plenty. However, her position as an LGBT evangelical is the more distinctive thing and it is something she's very well qualified to speak about.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Don't talk to anyone about your situation unless it is someone you trust 100% to respect confidentiality.
FWIW, I noticed in that article that she apparently confided in the CEO of Stonewall a while back and that they respected her confidentiality. Kudos to them for that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If enough leave homophobic churches to join or start non-homophobic churches, the homophobic churches they leave could conceivably collapse.
Is that something you would want to see? Personally, I would prefer to see a transformation rather than collapse.
That would be preferrable, yes, but I was responding to quetzalcoatl's assertion, and allowing it to be true for the sake of argument. This doesn't mean I want it to be true. I'm just saying that even if it is true of direct effect on institutions (transformation), there is still the possibility of indirect effect (collapse).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
There are plenty of people who have had far more experience of "being" lesbian or gay and facing directly the prejudice and flak from churches and believers.
And by her own admission she knows very little about being in a normal Same Sex relationship. If you like, she may have the theory, but she's not got the practical wisdom.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Call me a grouch (what a surprise!), but I really have a problem with Vicky Beeching becoming a poster girl for LGBT Christians.
Understand, I agree that celebrities receiving more attention for that which non-famous people suffer is wrong.
However, it is the way we work, it is in our nature. So rather than complain, IMO, we should use it.
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Personally, I would prefer to see a transformation rather than collapse.
Burn them to the ground.* The match was lit and they hid it with a paper shroud, the fire caught and they offered a glass of water. Let. Them. Burn.
*Metaphorically
[ 14. August 2014, 16:03: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
There are plenty of people who have had far more experience of "being" lesbian or gay and facing directly the prejudice and flak from churches and believers.
And by her own admission she knows very little about being in a normal Same Sex relationship. If you like, she may have the theory, but she's not got the practical wisdom.
First off, are you LGBT? If not, then it's definitely not your place to decide who is 'gay enough'.
Secondly and most importantly of all, did you not read the article? Beeching has known she was gay from a young age and told a crowd of 4000 people at a Bible camp, only to be 'exorcised'. Having spent a long time in the closet does not make her experiences less valuable or her 'less gay' during the time she was in the closet. A gay person in the closet is still a gay person with valuable and important experiences to talk about.
Also, how gay one is does not depend on their level of sexual activity - it is incredibly offensive and wrong to suggest that gay people need to be in same-gender relationships in order to 'experience' being gay. They experience being gay by living while being gay - that's it. This is just a tired rehash of the idea that celibate gay people are somehow 'less gay', or the idea that gay teenagers 'can't know they're gay yet'. It's heterosexist and erasive bullshit.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He has started to wake up. He commissioned a report into Homophobic Bullying in Church Schools and its guidance now forms part of SIAMS inspections.
It is seen as too radical by some bishops and as 'promoting homosexuality'.
You're right, Welby's gone some of the way, but he's maintained a fatal distinction, by defining "homophobia" so narrowly that "traditional teaching" is exempt.
Now he's seen, up close and personal, what his tradition does to people. His previous movement gives me hope that his legalistic boxes will fold.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
There are plenty of people who have had far more experience of "being" lesbian or gay and facing directly the prejudice and flak from churches and believers.
And by her own admission she knows very little about being in a normal Same Sex relationship. If you like, she may have the theory, but she's not got the practical wisdom.
I don't see what's to be gained by some experience Top Trumps.
Beeching's been through hell and back thanks to the church's homophobia. So what if she hasn't experienced a relationship? Plenty gay people haven't experienced being closeted in the eye of the Christian right's storm. Haven't experienced an exorcism, being contractually obliged to headline Prop 8 rallies, or had the stress of passing trigger an auto-immune disease. Their experience isn't somehow less valid for the absence.
To get to the heart of your objection: no, it's not fair that Welby may be moved to change by Beeching's experience, after he's shut out so many others. Emotions aren't driven by reason alone. If it brings change that benefits all, fairness will have been brought about by those imperfect means.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He has started to wake up. He commissioned a report into Homophobic Bullying in Church Schools and its guidance now forms part of SIAMS inspections.
It is seen as too radical by some bishops and as 'promoting homosexuality'.
You're right, Welby's gone some of the way, but he's maintained a fatal distinction, by defining "homophobia" so narrowly that "traditional teaching" is exempt.
I quite agree.
People like him take a long time to shift.
Their emotions go ahead of their rule books.
I am about to read a biography of Welby - I hope it will make me more sympathetic to him.
At the moment, I am unimpressed.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
She's LGBT, she's a Christian, what other qualifications are needed?
Well, she could be talented, knowledgeable, articulate, courageous, filled with the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus, and ... oh, wait.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
She's LGBT, she's a Christian, what other qualifications are needed?
Well, she could be talented, knowledgeable, articulate, courageous, filled with the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus, and ... oh, wait.
Having just watched her take apart Scott "I categorically don't want Uganda to hang the gays" Lively, couldn't agree more. (Channel 4 News, available to watch on www.channel4.com )
I'm likewise unimpressed with Welby, leo, but gotta work with what we got.
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
It made me so sad reading her story, because it is one I've heard before (albeit not the exact details). But when I've heard it before the story ends differently, in them leaving the church. She has been far more gracious towards the church than I could be in her circumstances.
It also makes me sad when I see a university chaplain I know commending Richard Inwood on being true to gospel teaching or some such rubbish. I dread to think what would happen if a gay student came to him for advice. I can only hope that he reads the Independent and it at least gives him some pause for thought.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Good to see you posting again ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
I slink back in again every so often
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
It has also been interesting seeing how people in my church have responded to this. We don't have any official position as such (evangelical baptist, more towards the open end I would say), and I didn't really know what a lot of people think about 'the gay issue'. Today though there have been a significant number of people showing their support of Vicky. I do wonder how many evangelicals are OK with gay relationships but don't really talk about it much. Is there a tipping point coming where people feel more free to be honest about it?
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Is there a tipping point coming where people feel more free to be honest about it?
I think there is. I was at a cousin's funeral recently. My cousin had been a Mission Sister since her early 20s, so it was a full on Roman Catholic experience, involving a vast number of my aunts, uncles and cousins (over 600, and I'm not joking).
Before the Rosary, I was chatting to the priest in charge, who has known my (Anglican) mum very well for as long as I can remember. He asked how I found going to church these days, after going through the horrible homophobia of following a call. As I was on my own, he sat me with an aunt and uncle I haven't seen since I was a kid. After a few pleasantries, my aunt said that she was horrified at the way the church had treated me and it was about time things changed both in my denom and hers. I was a bit startled that she chose that topic of conversation, to be honest!
Over the 3-day course of the Rosary, Mass and day-long wake, several of my aunts and cousins imparted the same sort of message (my uncles are not what you'd describe as talkers, but they were all friendly). I have no doubt that if I have a young cousin who is gay or lesbian, they will be nurtured to be a part of their parish (at least while the current priest is in charge, anyway).
And one of the reasons I went to this funeral was that my cousin who died, and her mum, my favourite aunt, have always been incredibly welcoming of me and my partner.
This is a very middle-of-the-road Catholic parish, in a largish country town. My rellies are mostly farming/trades/housewife types who have lived all their lives in the area, without a lot of exposure to lesbians and gay men. If they can be accepting, then I have a great deal of hope.
[ 14. August 2014, 22:47: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
She's LGBT, she's a Christian, what other qualifications are needed?
Well, she could be talented, knowledgeable, articulate, courageous, filled with the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus, and ... oh, wait.
And you're quite sure she isn't? What evidence do you have?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
I'm slightly horrified that news networks still think it's okay to give Scott Lively airtime, as if he's someone who's sane or has an opinion that matters.
However Beeching did an incredible job of standing up to him and making him look stupid.
For unashamedly ulterior motives, I'm glad he got airtime. Best recruiting sergeant affirming Christianity could ask for.
I'm sure C4 wanted the brawl he delivered, but his brand of theological gay-bashing is influential globally, so it was justified.
Looking forward to the inevitable Beeching v. Welby (Sr.) debate.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Bless her heart, but I've never heard of her in my entire life. Is she more of a musician in Evangelical churches?
Yup, evangelical songwriter through EMI, also a prominent new-media analyst. Headlined Christian festivals like Alive & Creation in the U.S., and Spring Harvest & Greenbelt in England.
I suspect this'll have far more of an impact than Jennifer Knapp's coming out. Along with an in with the Anglican leadership, Beeching's studying for a theology doctorate, has an established profile as a commentator, and can be a combative debater. Attitudes have also shifted in the last few years.
Time's right.
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quantpole
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# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
She's LGBT, she's a Christian, what other qualifications are needed?
Well, she could be talented, knowledgeable, articulate, courageous, filled with the Holy Spirit and the love of Jesus, and ... oh, wait.
And you're quite sure she isn't? What evidence do you have?
I thought the implication was that she is all of those things.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Vicky is looking to stay in the church rather than leave, which seems to have perplexed some of the non-christians commenters.
I don't know of her (though I'm now listening on Youtube), but I'd be a bit perplexed myself. Why not find a more tolerant mainstream church? They're desperate for intelligent, articulate young members! Why allow yourself to face aggro from people who don't approve of you?
On reading the link, though, I realise that the evangelical world, especially in its American incarnation, is where her career as a musician lies. She can't walk away from that environment without losing her livelihood. (Alternatively, she could finish her PhD and become an academic theologian, and her sexuality and personal life would then be of less interest.)
As an outsider to this world, my impression from reading stories like this is that if mainstream evangelicalism accepts diverse sexualities it could well be because celebrity culture is so important to evangelicalism. If evangelical celebrities increasingly speak out or act in favour of acceptance, as some seem to be doing, there's little that other evangelicals can do, unless they withdraw from that celebrity culture entirely. Acceptance is the price evangelicals will have to pay for maintaining the cultural relevance they prize so highly.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Vicky is looking to stay in the church rather than leave, which seems to have perplexed some of the non-christians commenters.
I don't know of her (though I'm now listening on Youtube), but I'd be a bit perplexed myself. Why not find a more tolerant mainstream church? They're desperate for intelligent, articulate young members! Why allow yourself to face aggro from people who don't approve of you?
On reading the link, though, I realise that the evangelical world, especially in its American incarnation, is where her career as a musician lies. She can't walk away from that environment without losing her livelihood. (Alternatively, she could finish her PhD and become an academic theologian, and her sexuality and personal life would then be of less interest.)
As an outsider to this world, my impression from reading stories like this is that if mainstream evangelicalism accepts diverse sexualities it could well be because celebrity culture is so important to evangelicalism. If evangelical celebrities increasingly speak out or act in favour of acceptance, as some seem to be doing, there's little that other evangelicals can do, unless they withdraw from that celebrity culture entirely. Acceptance is the price evangelicals will have to pay for maintaining the cultural relevance they prize so highly.
I feel like this has all been said before re 'why don't they just leave'. As gay Catholics know as well as gay evangelicals, finding a match between one's theology and one's sexuality is not easy if your theology ties in with generally more conservative churches. And you can't just change your theology on a whim. Clearly, Beeching didn't feel comfortable enough in mainstream churches to join them.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[...] Why not find a more tolerant mainstream church? [...]
Interestingly, she has:-
quote:
[Beeching] still considers herself an evangelical, although she no longer attends charismatic evangelical services and now prefers the more traditional services of London's main cathedrals, Westminster Abbey, St Paul's and Southwark. She likes being in churches where no-one knows who she is and where she is not likely to be asked to join the worship team any time soon. "No-one singing any of my music, which is nice." She also needed the kind of space where she could prepare mentally and spiritually for coming out, the more contemplative meditative space found in cathedral worship, in particular services such as evensong.
The problem in England is that the state church is, thanks to its powerful evangelical wing, itself institutionally homophobic, commanding gay people to repent and suppress their sexuality for life.
Its biggest competitors are the Catholic Church and independent pentecostal churches.
There's no equivalent to affirming mainline American denominations like the Episcopalians and Lutherans.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Jade Constable
Of course, I do get it: evangelical churches and non-evangelical churches have a different vibe, and some people miss the lively atmosphere and more fervent spirituality when they worship in a more tolerant environment.
Byron
Referring to the UK, what about the Methodists? What about the URC? They might not be big, flashy and fashionable, but they are generally more tolerant places, so it's odd to ignore them entirely. Maybe with a bit of effort from post-evangelical newcomers they could become livelier and more interesting places to be. It might be easier than trying to make evangelical churches change their theology about sexuality. But maybe not....
I suppose these are questions I ask myself rather than others, but if people like Vicky Beeching yearn for spiritually vibrant but tolerant churches, why aren't there more such churches? Why aren't all these intelligent people becoming church leaders (even planting churches if necessary) and creating the churches that they want? Well, maybe the time is right and this is now happening. I'm in favour of having a diversity of church types, and we're obviously in desperate need of lively, passionate churches that are also accepting of different sexualities and lifestyles.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Regarding Catholicism, my understanding was that there are quite a few fairly recent breakaway movements that aim to rectify some of the 'problems' in the RCC, either in a more liberal or a more conservative direction. These churches aren't present in every town and vicinity, but the same could be said of the Seventh Day Adventists, or any other non-mainstream denomination one could mention.
I do think it's unrealistic to expect every denomination to become accepting of a wide variety of sexualities and types of sexual expression, but many have become more tolerant over the 20th c., so the process is likely to continue, in some denominations at least. Presumably some evangelical groups are moving faster than others. It would be interesting to see if there's been any analysis of this development in evangelicalism.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
But evangelicalism isn't just about worship style, it's theology too. I don't see why LGBT Christians are supposed to join churches which have beliefs they disagree with. Why not help LGBT Christians to change churches from the inside?
As for why there aren't more affirming evangelical churches, I honestly think that evangelical LGBT Christians would be too afraid of the backlash. I think part of the result of not having vertical hierarchy (or much less vertical hierarchy) is having horizontal hierarchy. Ironically, I think independent churches care far more about what other independent churches think of them than churches in more hierarchical denominations.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Headlined Christian festivals like Alive & Creation in the U.S., and Spring Harvest & Greenbelt in England.
Oddly, I've heard of the British ones (through the Ship and also references by Adrian Plass and I think Sheila Walsh), but not the US ones at all.
Mind you, I hadn't heard of the Mars Hill guy either till very very very recently.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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