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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: St. Clements
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
OK...this thread was started in Purgatory but closed because it was a Dead Horse which it obviously is. Apparently, a female priest is preaching at St. Clements in Philadelphia. It appears that some of the people are unhappy with the fact a female priest is preaching at St. Clements. You know what? The priest in question is an awesome priest. One of the most moving experiences I've ever had was hearing her sing the Salve Regina at compline. On things that actually matter, she is as orthodox as the next priest. As far as I'm concerned, those who have a problem with her can fuck the Hell right off.
And this is me, Beeswax Altar, if you plan on staying in TEC and I'm too liberal for you, well you are just plain fucked.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
She will change many minds then, which is good news ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Tips hat to Beeswax Altar, both for restarting the discussion here with a proper OP and nailing his own colours firmly to the mast. Thank you.
B62, DH Host.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
OK, so I'm firmly in favour of OOW so obviously think it's a good thing, but I have friends who are firmly opposed but would have no objection to this.
IME, those opposed to OOW have no objection to women preaching, they just don't recognise their priestly orders and object to them performing sacramental duties.
[ 18. September 2014, 08:22: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
quote:
Spike said:
IME, those opposed to OOW have no objection to women preaching, they just don't recognise their priestly orders and object to them performing sacramental duties.
It wasn't always so, though. Let's remember the wonderful Maude Royden.
quote:
In 1916 Archb***op Davidson put her on the council of his national mission which was to re-Christianize wartime ***land. Hundreds of missioners—clergy, laymen, even laywomen—were to ‘speak’ to the people. But Davidson suddenly got cold feet at the thought of women ‘speaking’ in church, contrary to custom, and with such as Maude likely to attract large congregations.
In the end it was left to the b***ops, many of whom—like the b***op of London—ruled that where women must speak in church for want of other accommodation, it should be only to their own sex, and only from the foot of the chancel steps.
Were there still untouchables, Maude wrote then, that women should be barred from holy places?...
Her devoted friend, Hudson Shaw... had been since 1912 vicar of St Botolph without B***opsgate and it was at his invitation that in 1918 she spoke in church on the League of Nations and Christianity. He was rebuked by the b***op of London.
In 1919 Shaw asked her to preach at the three hours' service on Good Friday. The b***op forbade it, on the grounds that this was an especially ‘sacred’ service.
Next time you hear someone say that progress is not possible in the Church without betraying 2,000 years of tradition, ecumenical consensus, etc, remember all the follies of the past which we cannot now look back on without embarrassment.
The powerful prejudice of b***ops and archb***ops in the Church of ***land less than 100 years ago against a woman even preaching in church, with no question of ordination, is one such folly.
[ 18. September 2014, 09:23: Message edited by: bad man ]
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
* 'm delighted. Actually, while * 'd known about this, * wasn't aware that the cat was out of the bag yet. Can hardly wait for the auspicious events on Michaelmas.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
OK, * just looked at the par*** website and see that the services for the 28th and 29th have been put up since the last time * checked the site earlier this week. Excellent.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Maude Royden, quoted by badman: quote:
Were there still untouchables, Maude wrote then, that women should be barred from holy places?...
...unless they're doing the cleaning, when the objections to women entering the sanctuary magically disappear.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Maude Royden, quoted by badman: quote:
Were there still untouchables, Maude wrote then, that women should be barred from holy places?...
...unless they're doing the cleaning, when the objections to women entering the sanctuary magically disappear.
That's rather good. Servitude trumps sacramental necessity?
Of course one can argue that it is the responsibility of the president to polish off the wine and wafers (or make sure they are securely reserved if that's allowed) and clean the cup and plate. Which shows that housekeeping is not just a matter for women.
I'm presuming that the Levites were responsible for the care and maintenance of the Holy of Holies, BTW.
The problem with reserved roles in accordance with perceived and received tradition is that they produce odd-looking boundaries. You ought to hear my wife about my washing up abilities; nothing to do with gender or stereotyping, she's just a lot more observant than I am.
Which, interestingly, is where I come from. My perspective is that talent, gifting and calling trump all other considerations. That sure applies to preaching, but more generally, Beeswax Altar's comment here.
quote:
On things that actually matter, she is as orthodox as the next priest.
Gender doesn't determine Christ-character either. The growth of that is a work in all of our hearts.
[BTW it does me good to get heckled over washing up and at least try to do better. I appear to have some inbuilt weaknesses re observation, but that doesn't mean I can't improve. We all need reminding about the things we need to work on.]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My view about OOW hasn't changed at all, but time makes me less and less prepared to put up with the posturing of both sides of the fence.
IMO churches - all of them - need to ensure that their selection processes are sufficient to weed out those who are incapable of doing the job of pastor.
For the last 30 years there has been a tendency to see the job of priest (or minister or pastor) as just a job, rather than a calling. Sure, the powers-that-be talk about vocation but there are plenty of them, never mind those they select, who are all too ready to talk in terms of the 'job' and seem more concerned with ensuring they get their day off each week than looking after a parish.
I've met a few excellent women priests - as I have male priests - and I've met some who should never have been sent for training; some, moreover, of whom there must always be the suspicion that if they had presented to a selection board as male would never have been approved for ministry, never mind ordination.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Barnabas62: quote:
That's rather good. Servitude trumps sacramental necessity?
Merely an observation based on the actual state of affairs in my grandma's church when I was a child. The vicar refused to let women behind the altar rail. Unless they were doing the cleaning or flower arranging.
Now, if he *really* thought that the presence of women in the sanctuary would contaminate it (which as far as I could make out was his justification for not having female altar servers or ministers of the Sacrament), don't you think he would have done the vacuuming and dusting of that part of the church himself?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Quite. Bit like the apartheid people who didn't want black people around them- except for their servants.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Barnabas62: quote:
That's rather good. Servitude trumps sacramental necessity?
Merely an observation based on the actual state of affairs in my grandma's church when I was a child. The vicar refused to let women behind the altar rail. Unless they were doing the cleaning or flower arranging.
Now, if he *really* thought that the presence of women in the sanctuary would contaminate it (which as far as I could make out was his justification for not having female altar servers or ministers of the Sacrament), don't you think he would have done the vacuuming and dusting of that part of the church himself?
Fascinating further detail. By the sound of him there is absolutely no chance of him taking on the vacuuming and dusting.
Reminds me of a relative of mine, an uncle long dead. I can close my eyes and hear him saying "that's women's work".
He wasn't dogmatic; just knew he was right. Used to drive my mum round the bend.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by l'organist:
I've met a few excellent women priests - as I have male priests - and I've met some who should never have been sent for training; some, moreover, of whom there must always be the suspicion that if they had presented to a selection board as male would never have been approved for ministry, never mind ordination.
No priest now serving could make it through the discernment process in every diocese. Yes, some women are bad priests just as some men are bad priests. Here is the difference. When a person or congregation has a bad experience with a male priest, they don't then hold that experience against all male priests. Furthermore, the same congregation wouldn't have had a problem if a male priest did the exact same things the female priest did that made them mad in the first place.
I've seen it happen over and over and over again.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Well, I've seen a female cleric get nothing more than tea and sympathy and the lightest tap of the knuckles for having an affair in not just one but two parishes...
Second time around her husband left her - he wasn't prepared to take any more but the bishop thought different.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Really?
You think male priests don't get away with having affairs?
The bishop in question would likely handle the situation the exact same way if the priest were male. Some Christians believe one's sex life is entirely private and has no bearing on their faith at all. Some of those Christians happen to be bishops. The bishops who believe that are likely to believe in the ordination of women as well. All of which says nothing about the ordination of women or the experience of female priests in the church.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Well, I've seen a female cleric get nothing more than tea and sympathy and the lightest tap of the knuckles for having an affair in not just one but two parishes...
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Really?
You think male priests don't get away with having affairs?
More tellingly, haven't we had enough stories recently of various (mostly male) clergy doing a lot worse things than a consensual affair with an adult partner and receiving minimal, if any, punishment from their hierarchy?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
ensuring they get their day off each week than looking after a parish.
Not a priest myself but I've known a fair few and I would be inclined to say that this is mean spirited and unfair. Protecting their day off is one step in ensuring that priests safeguard their own health and sanity. Without those they are no good to their parish. The minister at the local church here suffered serious health problems as a result of stress and in order to ensure that they are able to do the good work they have been doing in the parish it is essential to ensure that they take sufficient time off.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
ensuring they get their day off each week than looking after a parish.
Not a priest myself but I've known a fair few and I would be inclined to say that this is mean spirited and unfair. Protecting their day off is one step in ensuring that priests safeguard their own health and sanity. Without those they are no good to their parish. The minister at the local church here suffered serious health problems as a result of stress and in order to ensure that they are able to do the good work they have been doing in the parish it is essential to ensure that they take sufficient time off.
Imagine if someone said that they know doctors who are more concerned with ensuring they get their day off every week than in caring for patients. Oy.
And before anyone says it, the notion that priesthood is a calling and the practice of medicine is not a calling seems like a sort of bizarre clericalism to me. FWIW I am a layperson.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
ensuring they get their day off each week than looking after a parish.
Not a priest myself but I've known a fair few and I would be inclined to say that this is mean spirited and unfair. Protecting their day off is one step in ensuring that priests safeguard their own health and sanity. Without those they are no good to their parish. The minister at the local church here suffered serious health problems as a result of stress and in order to ensure that they are able to do the good work they have been doing in the parish it is essential to ensure that they take sufficient time off.
Imagine if someone said that they know doctors who are more concerned with ensuring they get their day off every week than in caring for patients. Oy.
And before anyone says it, the notion that priesthood is a calling and the practice of medicine is not a calling seems like a sort of bizarre clericalism to me. FWIW I am a layperson.
Doctors here DO keep their days off. Always. There are locums for emergencies.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Besides, to think that no one else can do what you do is a sin of pride.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm not suggesting it is a question of thinking no one can do what they do.
What I was saying was that there are clergy out there for whom nothing - absolutely nothing - is allowed to interfere with the day off, for example: - priest who took his day off so no celebration of the eucharist on the church's patronal feast day
- priest who wouldn't go to his own churchwarden dying at home to give last rites
- priest who heard intruder alarm at church next to his house but didn't contact anyone
- priest who lined up a selection of retired clergy for Christmas Day because it fell on the day off
- priest who has Friday as day off, reporting gleefully 'So I don't have to do a service on Good Friday'
In the last twenty years I've encountered all of the above (and more).
And I won't even go near the cleric who, in addition to his 6 Sundays per year, made it a point that when his children were on holiday from school he was off duty from the last service on one Sunday to the first Sunday on the next; technically he only took 6 weeks of holiday but in practice he was uncontactable for 17 over the course of a year.
Now call me old-fashioned but I don't detect a strong sense of vocation in any of that.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
And then there is the priest who doesn't 'do' visiting:
'I don't believe there is anything to be gained from me visiting people I don't know. People who require baptism or marriage can come to the Rectory.'
For the same reason he doesn't visit the bereaved, not even to discuss funeral arrangements, because 'The last thing they want is a stranger coming to the house.'
Anyone who dares disturb him in the Rectory is either kept on the doorstep or, if it is raining, he has a trestle table and 3 chairs in the garage.
At the end of a service he processes down the aisle, into the vestry, disrobes and goes back to the Rectory.
Truly a shepherd of his flock.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
And then there is the priest who doesn't 'do' visiting:
'I don't believe there is anything to be gained from me visiting people I don't know. People who require baptism or marriage can come to the Rectory.'
I'm afraid that that is what they have been teaching them in seminaries for at least the past 30 years.
I prefer to visit people in their homes - it saves me having to do housework to make my place tidy!
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now I see where L'organist is coming from.
I agree.
Those priests should have moved their day off for such exceptional events or taken time off in lieu.
Indeed. Such behaviour is totally outside of my experience.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
.... truly a shepherd of his flock.
Or perhaps autistic? Or ill?
But, if left unaware of how his approach speaks of Christ to others (not), a candidate for conduct and capability processes.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I'm afraid that that is what they have been teaching them in seminaries for at least the past 30 years.
To a certain extent, very true. I suppose I'd be considered reasonably unusual in our own (non CofE) circles in that I visit people at home, work and during groups at church.
I recognise though the demands of colleagues who have multiple congregations and several Grade 1 listed buildings to look after, alongside high expectations of what it is to be the "established" church.
I have none of these, although we're a pretty big church in terms of numbers and I'm the only paid person on the ministry team. It does allow me, for example, to spend a significant time picking up on conversations and needs.
[ 28. September 2014, 05:52: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
To get back to the original topic and perhaps to close it out, I can report that the Institution of the 19th Rector of St Clement's, and the Solemn High Mass with the Bishop Provisional of Pennsylvania presiding from the throne, was beautiful. The nave was more completely filled than I have ever seen it over the past seven years, the music (with orchestra and our full professional choir) was gorgeous, and the congregational singing amazing. The sermon preached by the Reverend Mother in question was exceptionally fine in structure, content, imagery, and delivery. I would expect that in the next few days there should be photos (and ultimately musical recordings) available on the parish website (and pics on the fb page, as well).
[ 30. September 2014, 13:20: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I'm afraid that that is what they have been teaching them in seminaries for at least the past 30 years.
To a certain extent, very true. I suppose I'd be considered reasonably unusual in our own (non CofE) circles in that I visit people at home, work and during groups at church.
I recognise though the demands of colleagues who have multiple congregations and several Grade 1 listed buildings to look after, alongside high expectations of what it is to be the "established" church.
I have none of these, although we're a pretty big church in terms of numbers and I'm the only paid person on the ministry team. It does allow me, for example, to spend a significant time picking up on conversations and needs.
When I was a pastoral assistant in a suburban (what became) AffCath church in the early 90s, the general aim was to do three, I think, home visits a day- not that I always did this, tho' it was the standard to aim for; and this was what the Vicar did too. The Vicar of the neighbouring parish, which was Evangelical, used to aim for eight 45 minute visits a day: he came from the CofI and used to say that CofI clergy were trained to be visiting clergy.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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